Eagle Board of Review and God

[Bob White]

Buffalojoe,

A Catholic seminarian working on a "religious award" for wiccans and pagans? Interesting, I would have thought the whole idolatry thing, not to mention the 1st Commandment, might cause you a little conflict.

 

This might save you and your friend some time. Religious award requirements must be submitted to the BSA by the religions official national or international orgnaization. Wiccans/pagans have no such national organization. You and your friend are not "qualified" to submit a religious award (from any religion) for recognition by the BSA.

 

While you might offer it to the various wiccan/pagan groups for their use, until they have an officially recognized central organization they will be unable to submit their awards to the BSA for display on the Scout uniform.

 

Good luck on your project, I hope it does not detract from your catholic studies

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NeilLup]

Welcome to the forum, BuffaloJoe.

 

With respect, may I suggest that you check the Scout Law as developed by Baden Powell. I believe that you will find there are only ten points. None of them have anything to do with reverent. That is unique to the USA.

 

This is not to say that BP did not believe in religion, particularly the religion of the outdoors and woods. But he did not include it in the Scout Law.

[buffalojoe]

Bob white

 

When kevin asked me to work on the Ygdrassil with him it was because i can put my own beliefs aside for scouting. To wit, prior to our last round of elections our troop had a Luthern SPL, Catholic ASPL, and one of our PLs was buddhist. I'm so good at it that my Arch bishop has questioned me about the whole first commandment asking if I was not putting BP in front of JC. I told him no, but i was praying for BP's canonisation. But my faith is my faith and the scout's faith is his. My job as a scouter is to help him excell in every aspect of the Law and Oath. Without evangelising the scout. In fact, missionary work, i.e. proselyting, was part of my problem growing up LDS. The attitude of "every member a missionary" never rang true for me. Even when parents insisted, i.e. cut off college funds, that i serve a two year mission. I went but got lucky and was sent to a predominantly catholic nation that reaffirmed my conversion to Catholicism while i was there. I'll have to share the paternal interview story later.

 

But for Kevin and I we have i deal. I help him get through the Ygdrassil approval process and he helped me pass physics and calculus and trig and chem and organic chem....

 

Part of our plan is to do an education campaign with the national execs. We feel that if they understood the natural organisation of modern Wicca/Paganism, they'd better be able to review the requirements and maybe set aside the central orgnization requirment. If not, he's going to do his best to form one or take a lesson from the ACLU and sue for discrimination witht he goal of litigation being the courts saying that the requirement for a central org is discriminatory and force them to reconsider. Not the way i'd do it but hey, he felt denied as a scout when others were getting there awards and he was left holding the stick.

 

As for distractions from my studies...meh. All work and no scouting makes buffalo joe likely to charge.

[packsaddle]

buffaljoe, I'll second what NeilLup wrote and add that you can expand on that by reading many of the messages by Kudu. You can learn even more at:

http://www.bpscouting.org/

 

Trevorum, I agree and Calico, I too am glad you stuck with it and didn't let the turkeys get you down.

Trevorum, your comments about the Bible belt are valid. This unit has avoided problems by having a unofficial unit eagle coordinator - me. I make sure that the records are correct, that the boys have up-to-date information and documents, and I get to pick the members of the EBOR. I maintain a list of potential board candidates who I know are knowledgeable of the scouting program (many are retired leaders), are willing and interested, and who have no 'agendas' to promote. Gonzo1, you'd have had no problem in our unit, nor would you have had to explain yourself to a skeptic. (hope you've managed to stay dry out there)

 

The thing about 'reverent' is that while we all can directly observe and participate in knots, fires, cooking, equipment, etc., while we can experience qualities such as trustworthyness or loyalty in day-to-day interactions, there is only ONE person who can really know what is in a boy's heart or mind regarding matters of faith...that ONE person is the boy himself. If the boy says he meets the 'reverent' qualification, there is no other human being who is a 'higher power' - qualified to judge what is in the boy's mind or heart - much less...qualified to fail that boy for this reason...I think there is a verse about casting stones?

 

Edited part: I guess I was still typing...buffalojoe, BSA has attained 'private club' status and because of that, BSA is legally allowed to discriminate on whatever basis it likes. I suspect that a suit would be fruitless, but I wish you success with the top brass. Who knows, maybe you'll open some eyes after all.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[DanKroh]

"Religious award requirements must be submitted to the BSA by the religions official national or international orgnaization."

 

Except that the BSA has already violated this rule by recognizing the UU award put forth by the UUSO, which is NOT the religion's offical organization (that would be the UUA), and which is not even "recognized" by the UUA as an official UU organization. A little consistency by the BSA might be too much to ask for, but would be nice.

 

"Wiccans/pagans have no such national organization."

 

Covenant of the Goddess is as close to a national organization as Wicca is ever likely to get, and has at least as much "clout" with Wiccans as the UUSO does with UUs.

 

Buffalojoe, I second CalicoPenn's recommendation to take a look at the religious awards already developed by CoG. The awards are very appropriate for many variations (but not all) of Paganism. I think Kevin's cause would be better served by throwing his and your efforts behind CoG.

 

Of course, all that said, I honestly don't give a hoot if the BSA "recognizes" my faith's (or anyone else's) award or not. But I find their hypocracy on this matter disturbing.

[Bob White]

Again, good luck with that. The right of a private organization to discriminate has already been tested and supported by the legal system all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

 

Remember that the BSA is not saying that there cannot be a wiccan religious award, only that it must meet the BSA's regulations to be worn on the BSA uniform. Included in those requirements is that the religion must charter at least 25 scout units. To date there are no scout units chartered by a wiccan or pagan organization.

 

A Scouts Duty to God can be a confusing thing for some boys at this age who come from families that did not provide them with a strong religious foundation. In these cases they often look for others around them to help them understand their duty to God by their example and their personal beliefs.

 

Would having adult leaders who could set a positive example, and who had an understanding of their faith, not be a greater benefit in helping the scout form his beliefs than to see someone who professes a belief Catholisism and supports paganism?

 

I am not sure that showing a scout you would set aside your reigious beliefs because someone helped you with your homework is reflective of our catholic faith. As you know catholic history is filled with people who were willing to give up there lives rather than give up the ministry of their faith.

 

10% of scouts have their first exposure to organized religion through the scouting program. It is unfortunate that so many seem to be surprised when the subject of "duty to God" comes up in a board of review. It is the responsibility of the leaders that the unit program helps the scout appreciates and according to this duty. It would seem that since the unit is chartered by a christian church and you are being trained in a christian education that your reflection of the Duty to God through your beliefs would be a health thing for the scouts to see, and could be done without proselytizing. Perhaps if scouts saw less religious ambiguity in the adults around them they would have an easier time understanding this element of the Oath and Law.

 

Something to consider.

 

Dan

I am unable to find any evidence that the BSA approves any UU religious award for display on the BSA uniform.

 

According to PRAY's website it is not. It has been accepted by the GSUSA but not the BSA.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[John-in-KC]

Just a thought.

 

My Pastor was required to take 6 graduate hours of "Other Theologies" en route to his M.Div. Purposes:

- To assist him in Apologetics for Christianity,

- To equip him to confront folks outside our denomination,

- To assist him in his own Public Ministry, as he might encounter young people wanting to explore outside Christendom.

 

I have more problem with BuffaloJoe's comment about wanting B-P, an Anglican, canonized than I do with him helping a Wiccan scout understand his own faith.

 

All that said, BuffaloJoe, the 25 Chartered Units is a current National Relationships Division rule. Even then, as someone pointed out, controversy (such as the UU conundrum) may keep BSA national from recognizing a religious award.

[packsaddle]

If anyone wants to revisit the 'renegade';) UU religious award, here's the link: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=88667

According to Trevorum, BSA has indeed approved the award by the UUSO (an independent group of scouters, 'renegades', NOT the UUA) to be worn on the uniform. Unless there has been a change since that time, this supports Dan's argument. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Trevorum]

I've made this point before, but it bears repeating, since even the most experienced Scouters seem to believe in error that BSA religious awards must be officially sponsored by the religion. This is not true. Many religious awards are sponsored by groups of religious Scouters. For example, the Catholic awards are sponsored by the Catholic Committee on Scouting, not by the Most Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church. Similarly, the Jewish awards are sponsored by the Jewish Committee on Scouting. Following these models, the current UU awards are sponsored by the Unitarian Universalist Scouters Organization.

[Bob White]

Still there does not seem to be any evidence that that the BSA has recognized the UUSO's award.

 

I have resurrected the discussion on this in the "Working with Kids" section.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[buffalojoe]

Hooooboy,

 

First, I never set aside my faith. I only withhold proselyting to boys. If they ask about catholicism I answer honestly. If they continue peppering me with questions I'll defer them to RCIA programs. But honestly, I grew up LDS/mormon and have always hated the idea that to minister to someone you have to tell them that any faith but yours is wrong. Its as bad as an EBOR saying any thing outside of judeo/christian is not reverent. It has no place in scouting. As anyone in Pine Tree will tell you, I don't back down and have taken on Salt Lake personally over issues that happened when i was on camp staff 2 years ago.

 

As for BP, the Catholic Church's Committee of the Causes of the Saints ruled in 1983 under the auspices of the Pastoral Provision of 1980, that christian member of the anglican communion who were found to meet the standards for the veneration/beatification/canonization process could be considered canonizable under the same terms that allow anglican protestants to convert without undergoing the RCIA/conversion process required under canon law. All that said, when i told AB Sheehan this, i said it in jest, because he aske me if i thought BP was a member of the Trinity.

 

But all this should be really another thread, as this one is about EBORs

[packsaddle]

Hi Trevorum,

OK, if this is the case, what is the deal with the Wiccans? Why would BSA require an official national or international orgnaization from them and not others?

I can understand Dan's frustration. On one hand the Wiccans are trying to be included and are being rebuffed. On the other hand, BSA actively excluded the official UUA award because of a disagreement on freedom of speech...and then embraced an award created by an unofficial subset of the same faith. Unless there's something else going on here, I see no evidence to reject Dan's accusation of BSA hypocrisy.

[Trevorum]

AFAIK, the Covenant of the Goddess is a national organization and should be qualified to sponsor a religious award to BSA under the current rules. So, I don't think that's the problem. I am guessing that it's more of a visceral rejection of overt paganism by the overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian members. I suspect Dan's feelings are well-founded.

[DanKroh]

Thanks, Pack and Trev, for dispelling the "must have a national organization" whooey. Never mind that CoG *is* a national organization.

 

So, the BSA then had to make up a new bogus rule, the 25 unit rule. Now I'm curious, are there *really* more than 25 unit chartered to Buddhist temples, to Hindu temples, to Zoroastorian organizations, by the followers of Meher Baba?

 

"To date there are no scout units chartered by a wiccan or pagan organization."

 

No, there aren't, but not for lack of trying by Wiccan/Pagan organizations. And if the BSA has its way, there never will be. I wish I could find the letters of rejection from National to the Aquarian Tabernacle Church or the Covenant of the Goddess when they asked to become chartering partners, but the basic gist of it was that "the values of Wicca are inconsistent with the values of Scouting". Another bunch of whooey; of course, the BSA couldn't outline *which* values of Wicca conflicted with scouting.

 

I find it particular ironic that somehow the values of the Church of Scientology (considered a dangerous cult by just about everyone outside of it) don't conflict enough with the values of scouting to disqualify them as a Chartering Partner. Or perhaps it has more to do with their large bankroll.

[Trevorum]

Dan,

I genuinely believe the only way to get the CoG awards accepted by BSA is to have the CoG sponsored at the BSA Religious Relationships committee by a mainsteam faith. BSA changes from the inside. The National Catholic Committee on Scouting and the National Jewish Committee on Scouting are both very welcoming to Scouters of all belief systems. Such a sponsor can then invite COG non-voting "observers" to RR meetings. After several years of patiently attending meetings, building personal relationships, and dispelling myths, the COG may be in the position to once again propose an awards curriculum. However, by that time, you will have the votes on the committee. It's political, but that's how the sytem works.