Eagle Board of Review and God

[Bob White]

Duty to God should not just be a part of the Eagle board of review, it should be a part of EVERY board of review. A Scout's reverence and Duty to God does not begin when he is ready to earn Eagle. It begins when when he joins Scouting....or before.

[evmori]

Better get the extra heavy duty thread out!

 

For the 2nd time in a week, I agree with Bob White!

 

Was that an iceberg that just passed?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagledad]

>>packsaddle's comment has me wondering when do questions become too personal, that they cannot be asked at BOR or a scout can decline to answer?

[packsaddle]

"The questions in the EBOR are only intended to find that the scout is not ready to be an Eagle."

If that is the intent of the questions then I have been under a misconception for a long time. I thought the process was intended to be a 'review', not an inquisition.

[scoutingagain]

Well I don't mean to speak for Barry, but I don't believe he meant what the sentence implies taken out of context of his discussion. I suspect he meant more that the EBOR process was to confirm the candidate had in fulfilled all the requirements, but I'll let him clarify further if he so desires.

 

Those requirements include a "Duty to God" and "Reverence". Asking a candidate how he fulfills those are legitimate areas of questions I think. Asking a direct question about the candidate's belief in God I think could be considered personal and is not a legitimate question. Belief in God in the Judea Christian Muslim sense is not a requirement and so such a question is not appropriate.

 

If asking a candidate if he believes in God is considered OK. A scout is supposed to also be Clean. Physically and morally as defined by the BSA. If being gay is considered immoral by the BSA would a legitimate question to a candidate be, "Are you gay?" Or would that be too personal?

 

SA

[Eagledad]

>>I suspect he meant more that the EBOR process was to confirm the candidate had in fulfilled all the requirements, but I'll let him clarify further if he so desires.

[packsaddle]

"...would a legitimate question to a candidate be, "Are you gay?" Or would that be too personal?"

Yes, too personal. If I was asked that question I might be rude, possibly provocative, suggesting that you do something anatomically impossible without injury. Or I might play along, toying with you to see how far you'd take this idiotic question.

 

Here's the thing. He signed the membership form. That's that. If you think he's a liar, then you should say so and should have at that time. If you had some reason not to allow him in, that was the time to raise the issue. But if you have nothing more than a need to poke your nose into the private sexuality of other persons, I'd advise you BUTT OUT.

 

I can't imagine what that question might do to a boy. Do you really think you'd get an honest answer anyway, if he was gay? After a boy has been through years of peer pressure regarding 'gayness'? Does the implicit BSA policy of DADT mean anything to you? Get real. Or to put it the way Jeff Foxworthy might put it, he might just as well ask in response, "Do I look stupid?"

 

ED...ited part: Ed, I just figured out that reference to icebergs. You do know that hell is a myth, right?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Lisabob]

The notion of a group of adults questioning a child about his sexuality seems extreme. As a parent I would probably go ballistic on all involved if/when I heard about it, no matter what the outcome of the BOR. Other issues I would not generally expect people to ask about in a BOR: "do you use illegal drugs/alcohol/cigarettes?" Since no scout in their right mind is likely to say "yes" it isn't a very useful question. However if they did say "yes" then you have just succeeded in placing a scout in a legally compromising position, which I can't imagine most BOR members have any desire to do. If you want to know whether the scout makes moral and ethical choices or keeps himself "phyisically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" then there are better ways to ask.

 

My son and I were talking about the religious aspect of the BSA just yesterday as I drove him to scouts and he was nervously preparing for a BOR (not Eagle). Faith is a difficult thing for many adults to discuss with close friends and family, let alone for kids to discuss with (in some cases on an Eagle BOR) a whole gang of complete strangers. My advice to him was that the BOR might legitimately ask him his views about reverence and duty as they are included in the scout law and oath, but that it was highly unlikely that the BOR would ask him to defend specific tenets of his faith. The inquisition this is not. And in the BSA's view there is no single "right" answer to BOR questions about faith.

 

Also, my son being a flippant teen ager, he probably would have answered a direct question that he considered too personal with some sort of smart alecky response question (I can imagine it now: Mr Smith: "Scout, do you believe in ___ (insert your deity here)?" My son: "Hmm, well can you define what you mean by ___ Mr. Smith?" An hour later...)

[Eagledad]

Yes, yes of course, but I think Scoutingagain was asking the question from a legalist point of view. And I think that is an interesting question.

 

Barry

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Pack, when you say Hell is a myth, are you talking about a geographical place or the concept?

[evmori]

Not to me packsaddle.

[scoutingagain]

Barry and I seem be clarifying each other well.

 

Yes, the question was more rhetorical than anything. My first reaction to the intial post in the thread was, as many others, a scout is reverent, why would a question about God be out of line? But Pack's response got me thinking. I think open ended questions about reverence and duty to God are fair game. They are part of the oath and law. The scout can express his thoughts. Short of explicitly saying there is no God and he is not reverent to anyone or anything, just about any response a scout would have would likely not get him into trouble. The question would just initiate a discussion on the scouts approach to the spiritual side of scouting which I think is fine.

 

But I came around to Pack's way of thinking when I thought about the direct question, "Do you believe in God?" There seems to be no purpose to this question other than to try and trip up a scout and I wouldn't blame a scout for a wiseguy response. Belief in God as defined by who? The Board? That's not a requirement. I believe it is no more appropriate than asking a scout the direct question "Are you gay?" and now understand MacyM's initial inquiry a bit more.

 

I learned something in this thread. Thanks folks.

 

SA

 

 

[NeilLup]

Please let me quote from the excellent unit of supplemental training on Board of Review which can be found on the National BSA web site.

 

www.scouting.org

 

then Boy Scouting >> Supplemental Training

 

"Discussion of a Scout's religion is very appropriate at a board of review, but it should be done with respect and appreciation for the variety of faiths and beliefs in the United States. An open-ended question like "How do you honor the 12th point of the Scout Law?" will allow the boy to discuss his religious beliefs. A blunt "Do you believe in God?" should be avoided as there are some religions that do not use the name "God" for their supreme being or higher power"

 

The point is that the question "Do you believe in God" appears to have an agenda and possibly an unfriendly agenda on the part of the adult asking the question. Many youth have questions about "God" particularly because they associate "God" with big formal religion. However, if a youth were to tell me at a Board of Review that he is doing his best to understand about the world and about a supreme being and he is uncertain but is working his way toward his personal beliefs, I would be totally satisfied. In fact, I would be far more satisfied than with the kid who just parrots the beliefs of his parents and is taking the most easy and comfortable path to get his Eagle.

 

Our job, in my opinion, is to help our youth. Not to find reasons to reject them nor to force them to coincide with our beliefs and procedures in order to receive recognition.

[Mrw1]

I sat on an EBOR for a boy who had a letter of recommendation form his church leader in the packet. During the review, he was asked if he had to eliminate one of the 12 points of the Scout Law, which one would it be. He answered Reverent bacause it was the only one that did not have to do with interactions with others.

 

The District rep wanted to deny him his Eagle based on the response. We did convince him otherwise.

 

For other boys, when I help them go over the packet to make sure all the advancement dates are correct (as troop advancement chair), I look to see if they are including a religious reference. If not, I do let them know that they may be asked about religious beliefs at their EBOR, and that whatever they are is personal, but that they do need to have some.

[scoutingagain]

"The District rep wanted to deny him his Eagle based on the response."

 

It's stuff like this that just scares me. How does an adult with this attitude towards a youth member that honestly answered a question get into such a position? The scout didn't say he wasn't reverent, he just indicated if he had to eliminate one element of the Scout Law which would it be and gave a reason. The scout apparently understood the desires of Baden Powell more so than the District Rep.

 

Jeesh.

 

SA