Eagle Board of Review and God

[Crew21_Adv]

 

My two cents.....

 

 

I gotta to agree with scoutldr.

 

There are alot of answers that should have already been provided by MacyM's son's Scoutmaster and Troop Committee.

 

The Scouter.com forum should have only re-stated what is obvious. I also highly agree with the previous posts, all of the previous post and our forum members have equally done a great job answering questions that should have been easily answered at the unit level.

 

I can certainly understand (although I don't like it) someone debating about God in any online forum. Or someone debating the Scouting Program or policies. It seems nearly human nature for people to debate and discuss, and even argue over nearly any issue at the drop of a hat.

 

But I have a hard time believing that a parent of an Eagle Candidate does not understand the basic joining requirements.

 

I also don't enjoy MacyM's comment, "I thought that you boy scout types were kind". As if to negatively implicate that we are not kind.

 

Also stating "you...types" as if it were an accusation, or that Scouts are different.

 

I am proud to be a Scout Leader and disappointed that an Eagle Scout Candidate's parent (or any Scout parent) would use (or type) a comment like that. It would seem that we already find differences between us.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[scoutingagain]

Welcome Macy and congradulations to your son.

 

I'm sure your son is not the only scout to be a bit suprised by such a personal question at an Eagle BOR, however he should not have been. Questions related to his faith, how he perceives the world around him and how he shows reverence should be a part of his ongoing advancement process starting from Scout and including all his other Boards of Review working up to his Eagle BOR. If they havn't, your troop is not fully serving the youth membership.

 

I can see how this might happen though in a unit that is essentially secular and does not include any type of religious activities. They may focus their internal BORs on scout skills and other advancement activities and not include questions related to the scout law, or specifically, reverence. Then a scout stands in front of a District or Council BOR or BOR member and has a whole set of questions related to stuff he hasn't experienced in his scouting world. That's dissapointing since some element of focusing a scout on how he chooses to be reverent should be part of his scouting experience.

 

Macy,

 

It sounds like your son's BOR was a good one. They may have probed and got your son to think about his faith or at least what he thinks about how we came to be and where we're going. He apparently responded with some positive acknowledgement that there could be more going on than just a set of random physical and chemical reactions in the universe, which is about all he would need to do.

 

I hope your son continues to think about such things and finds a path he is comfortable with and that he continues his involvment with scouting.

 

SA

[John-in-KC]

MacyM,

 

Like others, congratulations on your son achieving Eagle. It's not easy, and not meant to be.

 

With the bit more background information you gave, I would commend him to visit and ask tough questions at various churches. He can do this by way of youth groups and youth studies, as opposed to sitting in the pews at worship. Encourage his questioning. Struggle is a common part of being a teen.

 

I'd also recommend his visiting with an adult, perhaps his Scoutmaster, who has a firm grip on his own personal faith. Sometimes, the best way to answer the question is through multiple lines of exploration.

 

I wish him well, and congratulations on a true achievement.

[packsaddle]

MacyM,

Please congratulate your new eagle. I hope he will understand that many people struggle with this and similar questions in life. Sometimes we actually arrive at an answer.

 

I am the eagle coordinator for this unit. I am also an old eagle and I was never asked a question like this at any of my reviews when I was a scout. Personally, I consider the question out of bounds and an intrusion on my privacy. As an adult I sometimes dismiss this question bluntly enough that no one has ever asked twice. If a boy feels the same way I am sympathetic. But a boy may not have the experience or skills to parry such an intrusive question, or the position - especially when standing alone and vulnerable as a boy in front of a group of adult examiners who wield the power to fail him.

 

As eagle coordinator, I meet with each eagle candidate many times from the time he attains life to the time he is ready for the eagle BOR. Sometime during the process, and sometimes on several occasions, I will counsel the boy about the BOR. If they are exceedingly nervous or frightened by the prospect of this examination, I try to prepare them by listing some types of questions or topics that might be covered, especially those most difficult to answer. I try to give the boys time to think about things so they don't stumble around verbally during the BOR. (this also allows the BOR to be a bit shorter;))

 

One of the topics that inevitably comes up is the 'god' thing. I already know the background of each boy so, if needed, I work with him on several scenarios, one of which is the direct question about which you are concerned. I guess that among the boys in this unit there are maybe six or seven different gods wandering around in their minds and for some there is just a hazy cloud of uncertainty. I am very sympathetic to this and my wish is for people who are not their parents to BUTT OUT!

 

I inform each boy that the individuals at the BOR are there in his best interest and they are allowed to ask almost anything. I also inform him that he doesn't know everything and it's ok to respond that he's still wondering or thinking about certain topics if he doesn't know the answer very well.

When it comes to the direct question about his religious beliefs I inform the boy that he also has the right, if he chooses, to repectfully inform the board that he considers that to be a personal aspect of his life that he does not discuss.

 

I also attend (but as a leader not allowed to participate in) the eagle BOR. If this question arises I wait for the boy to indicate his response. If he's unable to answer the question, I'm prepared to speak, offering a clarifying question to help the boy. So far this has never been necessary.

 

One boy responded by asking the board to identify the constructive outcome of any answer he could give. He passed. The board's response to this particular answer was mostly surprise.

I informed him afterward that I hadn't recommended the 'smart ass' approach because I knew from experience that it could backfire. But that it had brought a smile to me. He'll make good attorney someday.

[AvidSM]

Scoutingagain hit upon an important point, that this type of thing could happen when religion is not discussed at the Troop level.

 

I make it a point to bring up a scout's religous duties and responsibilities at every Scoutmaster's conference. Belief in God is a vital part of scouting. A scout who was not asked about his belief in God until his EBOR, was not properly prepared for it. The Scoutmaster who sent that Scout into his EBOR did not fully know his character.

 

What if the scout at his EBOR said, "I don't belive in God"? What if the board members then find out no one in his troop ever asked him if he believed in God? He would fail his EBOR because of this and the fault would be with his Troop for never asking.

 

An EBOR should not be the first time a scout is asked about his belief in God.

[OldGreyEagle]

I do not think asking an Eagle Scout candidate how reverence is part of his life is intrusive. I wouldn't blink at a member of the EBOR asking how a scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful. etc. I don't know why Reverent would draw a pass

[packsaddle]

OGE, I can identify scouts and scouters who express 'reverence' towards junk food (maybe too much reverence ) but the first post was with regard to a situation, "...ask the scout if he believes in a god?" I see a difference between this question and one regarding reverence.

Edited to add: Besides, who are you to decide whether or not the boy (or his parents) thinks the question is intrusive?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[OldGreyEagle]

Pack, Charles Lamb, I beleive, that is his name, is an Atheist who is no longer in scouting because he didnt think you really had to beleive in a higher power to be in scouting. His eagle board of review never questioned it and he thought it was fine. I beleive that reverence has a part in a scouts life and a question about his religious beliefs is part of an EBOR.

[packsaddle]

OGE, yeah I think I remember that case. If Lambert had told BSA that his beliefs were personal and then refused to discuss his beliefs, do you think he'd have been dumped? Answer: NO. DADT again.

What do you think would be the harm if BSA kept its nose out of personal beliefs?

 

If 'rock worship' is acceptable (and according to BSA it is), then how low are YOU willing to place the bar for the so-called 'higher power'? Looks more like a game of limbo (no relation to the theological version) to me.

 

Edited part: name correction: Darrell Lambert, by the way, is still an Eagle Scout. Just no longer a member. I find it interesting that BSA's view of a belief system is so superficial that they gave him a week or so to 'convert'. What this really meant was that if Darrell was willing to lie about his beliefs, BSA would be OK with that and he could stay. So much for profound 'reverence' in BSA.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[scoutldr]

Macy, I apologize if you were offended by my comment. It was your invocation of the "separation of Church and State" thing that got to me. Do you think that the BSA is an arm of the State? I don't know anyone who even comes close to thinking that. We do get trolls here from time to time who enjoy stirring the pot and pushing buttons. Some even claim to wear the uniform!

[MacyM]

I'm sorry if my statement about you "scout types" bothered you. That was not my intent. I just didn't like almost being accused of not posting a truthful post by one person.

 

Sorry

 

Thank you to all. I think I understand now (I just hope that I'm not in trouble with my son for posting this on a publicboard, but I had questions and have been told that this is one of the best places to get your scouting questions answered. That's why it upset me by seeing that some didn't think my questions were real.

 

I will use this information to help my son, so he will be able to help out his fellow scouts.

 

Thanks,

 

MacyM

Added in edit:

I saw the response from scoutldr after I saved my message.

 

scoutldr, I accept your appology. Thanks

I am not a troll, just a mom that had some questions concerning my son's Eagle board of review.

 

Thanks again(This message has been edited by macym)

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry, Charles Lamb was the English writer and friend of Samuel Taylor Coleridge. Darrell Lambert was the Atheist. Disney has the cartoon "Lambert the Sheepish Lion" so whenever I hear/see Lambert, I think sheep and the name Charles Lamb comes up.

 

I dont expect you to follow, if you are confused, imagine what livng in this brain does for you...

[John-in-KC]

MacyM,

 

Sadly, we've had more than one poseur provacateur in the past six months. We've also had bloody fools show up here (anyone else remember sod surfing?). Sometimes, we react before we think it through (me included).

 

Now you have the fun part... helping your son plan his Eagle Court of Honor!

[RememberSchiff]

packsaddle's comment has me wondering when do questions become too personal, that they cannot be asked at BOR or a scout can decline to answer?

 

For example, when I was a DL, I found the Cub Scouts "family achievements" - family tree, go on a family outing, family finances, family responsibilities caused stress for two of my scouts. I learned later those families were separating/divorcing. Wish I had that to do over, I would have skipped those achievements, saved those two families the stress.

 

I think physical disabilities, religion, moral beliefs are other areas that one might consider too personal.

 

At a EBOR, if a question was asked that a scout felt was "personal" would he be within his BSA rights(?) to respond, "Under Youth Protection guidelines, I feel that question is too personal to discuss with a stranger (a scout may not know anyone on Board), and I respectfully decline to answer."?

 

 

 

 

[scoutingagain]

By their nature, BORs may tend towards some questions scouts may be uncomfortable with. This is where hopefully either another adult steps in to clarify the question or in the case of an Eagle BOR, if the question comes up with respect whether or not a scout believes in "God", the SM might clarify, as in "How do you show reverence?" or "How do you do your duty to God?" when the oath is stated. But the point I made in my previous post, is that this issue/discussion should take place several times before an Eagle BOR.

 

SA