Eagle Board of Review and God

[evmori]

I agree with scoutingagain! That kind of response is scary! The Scout answered honestly & based on what was posted, the answer he gave was very good. What if he would have said trustworthy because he didn't think it was necessary? Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction to me.

 

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

ScoutingAgain, I'll stand with you on that one and defend the scout from the scouter's attack. This kind of thing is destructive both to the boy and to the organization.

 

Ed, yeah I know, you're a good-natured guy and I was just messin' with you, no offence intended. OGE, while I consider it to be myth, the concept can be applied liberally to lots of places or situations...even changing according to changing conditions. My thoughts are turning to Rooster7 who seemed to think I (and maybe lots of others) was headed in that direction. Of course that was before ol' Rooster was taken by a micro-rapture or something.

[MacyM]

WOW!

Look at all of the responses. I didn't think that it was that much of a hot button, but I'm happy that some 9including me and my son) got some help from it.

Now, when my son gets asked by his fellow scouts about his Eagle board of review, he will be able to guide them even more.

 

Thanks again.

[evmori]

None taken packsaddle! I'm just smiling!

[Vicki]

"He answered Reverent bacause it was the only one that did not have to do with interactions with others." OK, this is the one that stopped me in my tracks. To put it into Boy Scout terms, from the Footsteps of the Founder - "Religion very briefly stated means: firstly, recongising who and what is God; secondly, making the best of the life that He has given one and doing what He wants of us. This is mainly doing something for other people." Reverence is expressed through service to and with others in the religions with which I'm familiar, which would be Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The vertical nature of the relationship with the deity is expressed in the horizontal nature of the relationship with one's fellow human beings.

 

IMO, this is where that particular EBOR should have gone.

Vicki

 

[SSScout]

Vicki: Thank you for saying it right. Vertical and horizontal. I like that. May I use that the next time I present "Scout's Own" at the IOLS?

 

After all, many (most?) other Scout orgs around the world make no Law Point about "religion".

[Vicki]

SSScout, please feel free - while I expressed it in my own words, the theological concept behind it isn't new. Besides, putting together a meaningful Scout's Own isn't easy! Use whatever resources you can find.

 

Thanks for the kind words,

Vicki

[scoutingagain]

"IMO, this is where that particular EBOR should have gone. "

 

Absolutely.

 

A follow up discussion on how the scout came to his conclusion and pointing out other points of view would be fine. However holding up the scout's advancement because one adult didn't like the answer because he didn't agree with the scout's point was totally inappropriate. After the discussion the scout may or may not agree with the other point of view with respect to being Reverent. However the discussion has no bearing on whether or not the scout has met the requirements for Eagle and I would expect an adult volunteer at the District level to know better.

 

SA

[Vicki]

Agreed, sa - although I realize I didn't say so explicitly, those sorts of questions are discussion points, not "gotchas"!

 

Vicki

[T164Scoutmaster]

What a great topic!

 

Congrats to the new Eagle!

 

When I went before the Egale Board in 1984 I was 14 and had not yet been able to formulate what my religious beliefs were. I had gone to church a few times and participated in Youth Group, but not becuase I had discovered GOD, believed in GOD, or practiced any form of religion. I went and did, because that is what my mother wanted. My father did not go to church when I was growing up and did not push religion. He was an Alter boy and left the Catholic church at nine years old never to return and never surrendering why he wanted nothing to do with religion. I thanked God I was not asked any relisious questions at my Board of Review, I would not have had an answer.

 

I did not have an answer for many years after. Even after I married a pastors daughter, I still had not grown spiratually or religiously. I did have some thoughts and did believe in something supreme but was not welded in my religious beliefs, To this day I am not sure I am either but at least now I am educated enough to know teh direction I want to be headed.

 

We all need to grow in our religious obligations and grow with God at our own pace. Some of you know when you start living and growing, through family and friends and accepted beliefs. There are many more that Struggle for an entier life time.

 

I think I have always believed in a supreme being or a greater power, Maybe I always believed in God. My wife and I have had several discussions because I lack the desire to go to church weekly. I tend to think that church is for fellowhip and my practicing of religion does not need to be at church. When I want to talk to GOD I do! I need not a pastor, reverend, priest, or any other religious figure head to tell me how to talk to GOD.

 

My religious growth took a turn more toward the mainstream accepted religious program, thanks to my wood badge ticket. one of my Ticket items was to grow in my spirtiual life. I have never been one to go at things with half an effort. I somehow found myself on the Search Commmitte for a new pastor and also filling a vacant term as deacon. If you want to grow spiritually get on a search team. The search lasted over a year and I grew more then I know. I witnessed many styles of preaching and many deliveries. Some people are gifted to spread the word and some are taught to spread the word. Some messages hit home and some are against my thinking and believing, but one of the greatest gifts through my growth cycle is that everyone is entitled to their oppinion. I was not put on this earth to Condemn and I certainly am not forced to Condone. I really have no say or no oppinion should you choose to practice mainstream religion or be a Homosexual. Judgement day will come to you and it won't be me rendering the verdict.

 

I have had jewish scouts in my troop and I have had indian scouts in my troop and I have never had a difficulty honoring or accepting the way they practice their religion. We try to incorporate some of their methods to give exposure to everyone. We try to not praise God but to be Thank full. Everyone that chooses to worship can in their own way, those that want to say grace can, those that want to say thanks can.

 

I am not a master of the scripture and I do not preach. I do Promote and I do allow growth in religion to each scout. I ask how they practice reverent and what "Duty to God" means to them. Most of the time the scouts have no answers the first, second, even third time I ask the question, but they all start thinking about it.

 

I am growing in my religious beliefs and preference every day I get older. That is even more eveident with the passing of my father on the 15th of March, after a courageous battle with cancer. The funeral on Saturday the 22nd left me with an even greater appreciation of my duty to God.

 

We moved my parents in to our house for two winters in a row giving up our bedroom so my parents could live comfortably and not have to worry about plowing snow or shoveling. In that time I came to learn and Love the fact that my Dad was a very religious man. Often we would walk in the house and he would have the religious channeles playing or he was listening to hymns.

 

I often struggle with the question often asked! "How can God let that happen to someone so young?" In my dads case I look at the other side of things now. He was young at 62, but haveing had a stroke at 50 we were blessed with 12 more years of loving relationship, however diminished it was. A once vocal man silenced by a stroke that was explained as debilitating to the point of never walking again or talking again. My Dad fought and battled in recovery to a hobble and a limp and relearning about 10 words. A man silenced by the stroke but one whom never missed a word when singing hyms. Only to live 9 years like this then be diagnosed with cancer. A 3 year battle with colon cancer that was predicted to last only 3 weeks, one in which no treatment was chosen. We were truely blessed to see, even in a diminshed state of health, a courageous fighter right until the end. I honestly beleive because of my Dads Faith we were blessed to enjoy his company for as long as we did. In the end the pain and suffering was cut short when he took his last breath as I sang Jesus in the morning to him.

 

 

I think we all experience and grow in our religious responsibiliites and our faith. I also think that, we as leaders can plant the seed, water it, and help it to grow. Maybe, just maybe, those flowers will be able to tell the Eagle Board of Review how they practice the 12th point of the scout law and how the perform their "Duty to God" obligations of the Oath.

 

God is good all the time! All the time God is good!

 

I used to be an Owl...... I'll always be an Eagle...... Forever a servant....

 

[buffalojoe]

funny this should be my first post.

 

Let me first say this, I tend to be KGB about rules. Second, EBOR questions shouldn't be pointed. What MacyM's son went through was inexcusabe and the DR should be dropped in a lake.

 

For me this question is tenuous at best. I'm an assistant scoutmaster, wood badger and Catholic Seminarian who is working with a friend from college to develop a Wiccan/Pagan religious award after one of my own scouts announced he was considering becoming a druid. So who knew? But one thing I am certain about, is that too often EBOR's skip out on the God/god/gods/goddess/goddess question or in short, 12th point of the scout law.

 

I know at my own EBOR back in December of 87 I wasn't asked about the 12th point. I was grilled instead on the 11th point that resulted in the answer "If i wasn't clean, you'd know it." But I digress.

 

BP chose the first and last points of the scout law for a reason. He felt they were the two most important. And every scout should be made aware of this. If a scout doesn't have that vertical relationship with a higher power as he understands it to be (borrowed from AA sorry), then the other 11 points foundations are eroded. Secondarily, if he doesn't believe in a God, be it the God of Judeo-Christendom/Islam, Vishnu, Buddha, heck, we even have a Mithraic Religious award so Mithras, then he professes the Oath in vain and essentially discredits his own trustworthyness. So it is appropriate for a EBOR to ask "How do you incorporate/honor the 12th point of the Law into your daily life."

 

AS leaders its our job to help prevent this from happening. While its the parents job to direct the scout's religious path according to their understanding, its our job to be supplemental to the preparation. We help, while not intruding. So when a scout asks me questions about God/god, I try and redirect him back to his family. If that fails or the family is absent then I do my best without trying to proselyte. Which can be hard to do and frustrating as a seminarian. But our job is only to supplement the parents and guide them in the ways of scouting.

 

So anyway, I think i'm going to snag the vertical relationship manifested in horizontal service as well... Good homily fodder.

 

Peace out,

Buffalo Joe

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

Hey Buffalo Joe - welcome to the forum.

 

As you're working on a wiccan/pagan award, you might want to check out the Hart & Crescent award administered by the Covenant of the Goddess (cog.org). In the early 90's, the Covenant of the Goddess approached the BSA and asked that it be recognized as part of the religious awards program - the BSA declined, then passed a rule that said a religious organization must charter at least 25 units before its religious award would be recognized.

 

Of course, that's well within the BSA's right to do so. However, the Hart & Crescent award is as stringent a religious award as those recongnized by the BSA. If I had a lad in my unit who earned the Hart & Crescent, I would award it to him in a court of honor, along with the square knot anyway.

 

I earned religious awards for three different religions when I was a Scout, and none of them was for my own religion - Wicca. When I went through my BOR for Eagle, I was asked the "God" question and spoke of my spirituality as it related to my freely chosen Wiccan religion. My Eagle was denied by the BOR because I was a Wiccan and not a "Christian". Of course, my Eagle was awarded on appeal, and I got the satisfaction of hearing my Explorer Post Advisor, a lay minister in his church, rip into the BOR members about the meaning of the word Reverent and how they had failed the BSA program. To the best of my recollection, none of the BOR members were ever allowed to serve in an Eagle BOR in that council again.

 

Calico

 

[GernBlansten]

Thanks Calico,

My son is coming up on having his EBOR. Just a few more merit badge requirements. Already completed his project and PORs. I too fear "the question" at his EBOR. We are not Christians. We are Deists. We don't go to a physical church, because there is no church for us to go to, and even if there was, we probably wouldn't go. Our church is the wilds, the woods, the world. I've been coaching my son on how to handle "the question". How to explain his Duty to God. How to explain how he is reverent. I hope it is enough. If not, I'm prepared to take the appeals process to its end and making as much noise as I can while doing it.

[Gonzo1]

When I went before the EBOR, I was asked which church I was a member of. I said that I wasn't a member of a church. Well, that just stunned everyone. They finished the rest of the board, but I had to meet with the church pastor (head of the CO) and have a meeting with him to prove I had met the Reverent part. Then, the EBOR sent my appoved packet to council. Fact is, my family wasn't members of a church, too long of a story for here. BUT, we did attend church from time to time. My grandfather was a Pentacostal minister. I wasn't put off by the question by the EBOR, I'm glad they asked. Church membership isn't a requirement, being Reverent is.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Calico,

What that EBoR did was inexcusable. I'm glad you stuck up for your rights and appealed. I'm also glad you are volunteering as an adult leader.

 

However, I do believe that similar situations can often be avoided through gentle advance coordination between the candidate's family, the district/Council Eagle advisor, and the potential members of the Board. Especially in "Bible Belt" regions, it is important for all members of the EBoR to understand tht Scouting is explicitly NOT a Christian organization and that ALL religious traditions are welcome. There are, inevitably, a few well-meaning but misguided people who will disagree these this official BSA policies, and they should NOT be allowed to participate in the EBoR for a candidate of a minority faith. IMHO.