sign off requirements completed

[Bob White]

My point Eisley is that few kids of this age show an interest in their parents interests. Here is part of Boy Scouting where a parent can share a passion for a skill, hobby, or profession with their child, and they choose not to, for fear of what some one else might think.

 

I find that very sad. You cannot control what others think, and there are so many far worse things for people to think about you then that you spend time teaching your own son something of interest to you.

 

Scouting is meant to create stonger families, and parents are passing up those opportunities to share their time and knowledge for fear of ...peer pressure. How ironic, how unfortunate, how unnecessary.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Bob I think you mis-understand the issue. The fact is that there are lots of ways to be involved in a shared activity like scouting, regardless of whether a parent signs off on requirements or serves as a MBC for their own child. I know this is true for me. In fact, when my son earned his Citizen in the Nation badge (which I'm well qualified to serve as counselor for), we probably ended up talking about the material together *more* than we might have if I'd served as his counselor straight-up, because he found the MBC's views and gov't-related experiences to be a) different from the political views he typically hears at home and consequently, b) really interesting to dissect and consider.

 

THere is no need to say that parents are missing out on a connection with their child by asking other adults to work with their child. And there are many things to be gained by helping a child establish a good working relationship with other adults too. Again drawing on my son's experiences with two of the best of his MB counselors, I know that he was motivated to go on to other merit badges that he otherwise might not have tried, simply because these people were also counselors for those badges. Had he done the initial badges with me, he'd have been deprived of that relationship and the new fields of inquiry that resulted from it. I don't find that sad, I find that exciting on his behalf.

[John-in-KC]

Lisa said it far more eloquently than I. Her post applies to my own EagleSon not quite word for word... and that is despite the fact we live in different States.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Perhaps I misread?

 

Eisly, Did you not post "The parents should not be the MB counselors for their own son,?

 

Lisabob, did you not write "Plus, esp. with these Eagle-required "school work" badges, it is just too easy for some people to assume favoritism when a parent counsels their own child."

 

John, did you not write "To me, when EagleSon was a youth member of the program (he's aged out now), letting someone else counsel him was a chance to leverage the Adult Association Method."

 

If you did not then my points were totally out of context. If you did however, then I feel their validity is easily defendable.

 

1)Adult Association includes parents

2)The BSA advancement policies specifically approve as parents as counselors for their own children.

3) Not sharing your knowledge and interest with your own children as a MB counselor for fear of what others might say is giving into peer pressure.

 

As far as wanting him to get another person's personal political views as part of the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge...I have reviewed the merit badge requirements and I do not find anything in the requirements that even remotely has anything to do with the counselor sharing their personal politics with the scout, or even asking the scout to discuss personal politics in any way. Is that correct?

 

If you don't want to be the counselor thats one thing, but you can confuse or mislead others by using reasons that misrepresent the BSA requirements, policies, and Methods.

 

BW

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[eisely]

Bob,

 

I don't think you misread anything. However in my initial post I also pointed out that there are exceptions.

 

Parents who are interested and active will have numerous opportunities to share experiences with their own sons without becoming counselors for numerous merit badges. While BSA does not preclude parents from "signing off" requirements for their own sons, it does not automatically follow that such parental participation should be encouraged. What I am saying is that a reasonable policy to avoid questionable advancement, including Eagle, is to put some distance between parent sign offs and their sons.

 

Others have pointed out, and I concur, is that by exposing their sons to other MB counselors, the "adult association" method is enhanced.

 

None of this prohibits parental sign offs, but if the SM can designate who can sign off on non MB requirements, it seems reasonable for the SM to preclude parental sign offs if the SM wants to do that. Further I don't see that this runs afoul of BSA policy if that is what the local unit wants to do.

[Bob White]

Now that's a different topic. Yes, the Scoutmaster can choose who can sign off requirements in the Handbook. But he cannot control where the scout learns or who he learns from. The Scoutmaster only controls who tests the scout.

 

But the SM cannot stop a parent from working with their son as a MB counselor for topics for which they are an approved counselor.

 

I do not know how you measure an enhancement to a method, you use a method or you don't. Having Scouts learn from, meet and work with adults is adult association. Parents are adults. If the experience is a positive one, then working with and building relationships with a parent is as rewarding as with a stranger, wouldn't you think?

 

As I said if you just want to say that you don't want to work with your son, that;s fine, just be careful that you do not mislead others by using a nonexitent BSA policy or Method as the reason.

[eisely]

Bob,

 

All points well taken. Certainly I have worked with my own sons on various requirements in the past, more in the teaching mode, and not, to use the correct terminology, in the "testing" mode.

 

In a few instances I actually went with my sons to meet with their MB counselors because (a) my sons were not yet old enough to drive themselves, and (b) to properly honor the youth protection policies. In those meetings I simply read a book and spoke only when spoken to.

[evmori]

The SM sorta does have some control of who a Scout uses as a MB counselor. After all, doesn't the Scout get the name & contact info for a registered MB counselor from the SM?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[RememberSchiff]

Well there's the BSA MB policy and then there is our Council/District policy (real world) on advancement. Here the Council has said the Scoutmaster is in charge of advancement. He may go along with the loosy-goosy BSA MB policy or enforce his own more restrictive policy - his/her call. I am familiar with 3 troops

 

Troop A: Parents cannot be mb counselors for their sons. Scoutmaster selects mb counselor for scout, sometimes he will not sign card for certain summer camp merit badges - "You do that badge with us". All Eagle-required mb's done within troop.

 

Troop B: Parents can be a mb counselor for no more than 2 mb's for their son. Scoutmaster allows scouts to select mb counselor from list but checks parent restriction before signing card.

 

Troop C: Parents cannot be mb counselors for Eagle-required mb's for their son.

 

I have not seen troop advancement policies restrict other relatives - grandparents, uncles,... There's some wheelin and dealin among parents - "Sign up as an X merit badge counselor with me. You take my son and I will take yours."

 

Make a rule and someone will find a loophole.

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I'll do a Troop D model...

 

We did as few Eagle Required MBs in-house as we possibly could. We sent folks outward, so they learned how to make appointments, how to keep appointments, how to work outside their comfort zone.

 

Bob, that's the issue. My son and I, even younger, interacted daily. He knows how to push my buttons, and I his. Having the chance to work with others is the opportunity I wanted for him!

[Bob White]

John,

If your son pushes your buttons and you don't want to be his counselor that's fine. All I am saying is you should not use misinformation about the BSA methods or advancement policies as the excuse. You can just say "I would rather he work with a different counselor". Nothing wrong with that. But to say it enhances the Adult Association method or that it violates a rule simply isn't true. And to say it's because of fear over what others MIGHT think is just unnecessary.

 

Schiff

Then there is the BSA Advancement Policies which state that

A) No Individual, Unit, council or district has the authorty to alter the advancement policies of the BSA

 

B) That no individual, unit, council or district has the authority to alter the advancement requirements of the BSA

 

C) That any registered counselor may counsel any scout for topics for which thay have been approved including their own children or other familiy memebers.

 

Make a rule and someone will feel they are above it and disobey it. That doesn'y make them right!

 

No unit has no authority to do any of the things you suggest, nor does the council or district.

 

Your post is another example of scout leaders who do not know or do not follow the policies of the BSA program.

 

Ed

What you posted would be correct IF the scout did not know who was a registered counselor for that topic. But if the Scout says he will be using his mother for first aid MB because she is a registered counselor an the scoutmaster checks with the council and she is, then I am pretty sure the scout already knows where she lives so the SM would not need to give him the contact information.

 

The BSA advancement policies state that ANY registered and approved counselor can work with ANY scout. If you have a concern about the quality of an approved counselor then you should share that with the council advancement committee. It is their authority to approve or remove counselors not the scoutmaster's.

 

If your problem is with the policy itself then you should notify the National office and wait to see if the policy changes. Until it does you have a responsibility to abide by the policies of the BSA.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Lisabob]

Well I guess I just find that to be the height of arrogance there Bob. You appear to be questioning and judging people's parenting styles, mine included. That ticks me off and I'm sorely tempted to tell you to go stick your head in a lake.

 

If you don't see the value in boys learning to work with other adults then fine. I do. But as you know nothing about me or my child in "real life" I'll thank you to keep your judgment of my relationship with my son as a parent to yourself.

[evmori]

Hmmm. If I'm not mistaken, in the Scoutmaster Handbook & the Boy Scout Handbook & a couple other places I think it states that the Scout will obtain a MB card with the name & contact info for a registered counselor. Don't remember the exact wording & I don't have any BSA resources where I am currently. Sorry.

 

What that means to me is the SM will give the Scout, upon request of the Scout, a MB card with the name & contact of a MB counselor. Nothing states the Scout will tell the SM what MB counselor he wants to use.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[RememberSchiff]

evmori,

 

Long ago, as a scout, my SM gave me a counselor list and told me to pick three and see who was available. He did want me to call all three BTW. As far as my SM was concerned, all mb counselors were equal so the choice was mine.

 

Today. It does seem the SM chooses the mb counselor up front but the SM also signs the mb cards for summer camp and Merit Badge colleges, not knowing who the counselor will be. I too have been looking for a policy statement just out of curiousity.

 

[Beavah]

Nah, let's not get overbroad about BSA "policy," eh?

 

Da goal of advancement is to help grow kids, so units and councils do set policies for their area to do their best job with that. There are some councils, for example, that refuse to approve a MBC for more than 5 MBs, just to encourage kids to get around and avoid issues where one SM counseled everything. Yah, not in accord with the guidelines but also perfectly legit in terms of the way things really work.

 

The general interpretation of da rules is that the SM selects or at least approves the MBC's in advance. This is an important program feature for many of our religious CO's, who have an institutional interest in designating certain counselors for badges like Family Life, eh? Or who have their own stricter training and selection criteria for youth-contact positions like MBC's.

 

So it's fairly common for units to use that approval process to restrict counseling by parents. Frankly, it's a reasonable and prudent thing to do in order to keep MBs from turnin' into webelos activity badges. I reckon every one of us can remember a parent in our units who would have gone that route if permitted to, eh?

 

At the same time, I reckon that none of us would stop a lad from working with his dad if his dad is the only Law MB Counselor in their town, eh? That's the intent of the BSA rule. Kids should not be deprived of access. Nor should there be a general restriction against parent MBC's which might interfere with, for example, a home school cooperative that uses the Scoutin' program and strongly believes in parent MBC's.

 

There's a time and a place for every purpose under heaven. A time to restrict, and a time to relax, a time to signoff, and a time to refrain... from signing. To everything, turn, turn, turn...

 

Beavah