Why First Class First Year?

[Beavah]

Lets not sully the name of FCFY with examples of troop practices which have nothing to do with the BSA advancement program.

 

FScouter is right, of course, in terms of intent.

 

I tend to take a slightly broader view, though.

 

When yeh consider the merits of a policy or program, I don't think it's enough just to consider its intent. Yeh have to also consider it's unintended consequences.

 

Rule by a Philosopher King is great in theory, and in practice if yeh can achieve it. But one of da unintended consequences of a monarchy is that yeh get lousy, despotic kings too. So it turns out a democracy with checks and balances is really better.

 

Same might be da case with FCFY. It might be great in intent/theory, or even in practice a few places. But if it has a lot of unintended poor consequences when other folks try to implement it, it might not be da best to recommend as a the national program.

 

Beavah

 

[GernBlansten]

Our unit implemented FCFY the same year my son crossed over. To our troop, it means that the program is designed to give a dedicated, active scout the ability to achieve FC by the anniversary of their cross over. That was the case for my son and a couple of his mates. But not all scouts made it, but those that did, had every opportunity to meet or exceed the requirements.

 

But now our committee and parents are expecting scouts to be FC in one year. This has transformed the program to steering and driving the scouts through the gates. They measure the success not by what the scouts learn, but by how many get through to FC.

 

I'm not sure I like the results. We have a lot of FC scouts who really aren't mature or skilled enough to lead other scouts. But our numbers are up and recruiting is going well. Success?

[OldGreyEagle]

I agree with Beavah

 

The Mission is to develop a scout who will make ethical decisions over his lifetime. Rushing a scout through requirements and signing off things the boy knows he didnt do is of no value to him or anyone else.

 

If a Troop cannot achieve producing a scout with First Class skills in a year by all means FCFY should not be attempted; but that does not mean First Class First Year is a flawed program

[FScouter]

I really doubt a consequence, unintended or otherwise, of FCFY is lame "First Class" Scouts. If a troop is failing in the advancement program, the solution is not to dump the FCFY program.

[eolesen]

What's a bit ironic here is that Centennial Quality Unit will probably make more than a few units rethink FCFY. One of the metrics is advancement, and boys who advance T-2-1 only get counted once...

 

I've heard more than one district level scouter also involved with a unit suggest that it might be beneficial to put the brakes on the rush to advance the boys...

[Eagledad]

Merry Christmas All

 

>>When yeh consider the merits of a policy or program, I don't think it's enough just to consider its intent. Yeh have to also consider it's unintended consequences.

[John-in-KC]

If I may,

 

It sounds like National designed FCFY to be a concious emphasis on basic skills development in units. The goal was to push the fundamental skills of the outdoors.

 

The Challenges, as I see them, are:

 

1) Merit badge school summer camps. Too many dining halls. Too many classes where the Scout learns something other than fundamental skills. The one week where we have them 24/7 each year, and how much of that time is off-focus?

 

2) Distortion of the goal, as Barry described. He said it so well, I won't say more.

 

3) An adult training system that's a hodgepodge.

 

4) Equipment prices for individual gear that compete most favorably with other high-end pursuits.

 

5) Last but not least, parents who do not value development of the "whole man." What I call the "Dow Jones quarterly report syndrome" has hit all manner of parenting. Parents who intend their kids to have a good start in life expect tangible results from the money and time they invest, and they expect near-real-time results. The whole man is not necessarily a tangible result.

 

Don Schollander, an Olympic champion swimmer from the 60s, penned "Not the Triumph But the Struggle." It's really too bad most parents do not understand this key point.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[gwd-scouter]

"Dow Jones quarterly report syndrome" - that's an interesting way to put how some parents view Scouting advancement.

 

I recently received an email from a Mom of a new Scout. He's a guy that visited our troop last February, but ultimately joined another troop. Seems he wasn't able to complete the 1st class orienteering requirement at his troop's campout a couple of months ago. She's asking me if I know of any place that has a one mile orienteering course set up where she can take her son so he can finish his 1st class requirements by this February - FCFY.

 

 

[RangerT]

IMHO I don't understand why FCFY should be shoved down new boys throats. I agree with allowing the opportunity for those overly motivated boys, but the last thing a new boy needs is pressure to achieve FC in the first year. I feel the same way about 13 or 14 yr old Eagles, I have yet to see one who was at the maturity or leadership potential for one acheiving that high honor. Now there may be exceptions to this but in 25 years of scouting I have yet to see one. SM's should be concentrating more on skill development and less on seeing how fast they can push the boys through the ranks.

 

I feel that National has been tampering too much with the basic scout program way too much over the years much to the detriment of the program and the boys, and most of their ideas of late have been pretty lame and will continue to cost us membership. I feel that most professional scouters at National are so out of touch with the desires of todays youth that they are grasping at anything to try to save the numbers but don't have a clue where to start.

[Gold Winger]

When push comes to shove, I think that most boys in Scouting are only there because their parents want them there.

 

My son's troop is fairly large, about 50 boys. However, the Philmont crew started taking sign-ups in September or October but wasn't full until April or May.

 

Now your first thought might be that the expense was daunting. Not for these families. New Suburbans, a cruise every year, iPhones, etc.. All the trappings of suburban wealth.

 

The real problem was that most of the boys didn't want to do the mandatory training hikes.

 

Adventure? They had a caving expedition set up but it was cancelled because only three boys wanted to go.

 

Rock climbing? Nah. COPE. Nope. Kayaking? Might get wet. Ski trip is cool because you get to hang out in the lodge and play video games.

 

I have two nephews in their early 20s. When they go out with their friends, do they go out to clubs and try to meet young women? Nope. Do they go out with a group of young women? Nope.

 

My son's non-Scout friends think that it is stupid to spend a week anyplace that doesn't have TV. When he comes back from summer camp, they tell him about all the great games that they played.

 

I don't know how many families have told me that it is great renting a beach house because they always have a DVD player for the kids!!!

 

I really feel sorry for most of today's youth. Their idea of adventure is a new version of HALO.

 

How's this relate to FCFY? Simple. Youth aren't interested in Scouting because it doesn't strike them as fun. So we have to get the parents to want to stuff their kids into Scouting. How do we do that? Dangle the big prize?

 

BSA and GSUSA keep trying to be "relevant" and fussing with the core program. GSUSA has botched it up even more than BSA but BSA is trying.

 

The boys who want to be Scouts want to learn the skills, not just get signed off. The boys who want to be Scouts don't mind wearing the uniform because being a Scout is something that they are proud of. The boys who want to be Scouts are willing to mentor younger boys, not because they'll get a check mark for doing it but because it needs to be done and they know that they cand help.

 

That's my rant for tonight.

[kb6jra]

I haven't heard anyone discuss the merits of the BSA's new move to make all incoming AOL earning Webelos instant Tenderfoot Scouts. What do you see as pros and cons to this new policy?

[Gold Winger]

I hadn't heard about that one but then I don't deal with that stuff any more.

 

I view it as one more desperate attempt to "retain" boys through advancement. Instant tenderfoot? No need to demonstrate anything for the Scoutmaster? "Oh look Johnny, you're already a Tenderfoot!" "So?"

 

I may have said it before but the quality of the program would be better served if they took a step or two back in time. No more simultaneous T-foot, 2nd Class, and 1st Class. Maybe even go back to sub-1st class scouts cannot earn merit badges. Summer camp could be spent hiking, swimming and learning about knots and fire.

 

I think that a motivated Scout could still earn first class in one year but the pressure would be off.

 

 

[dan]

When did the BSA start FCFY?

 

When my son joined the troop 6+ years ago the troop was running a FCFY program, but they did not know what FCFY was!? The troop was started in 1980 and the way the old timers (I am one of them now!) tell it was all which run this way, if the scouts came to at least 8 of the 12 campouts and most of the troop meetings and applied themselves they where first class in about a year. The only thing the troop has trouble with in the swimming requirements, finding a place to do these with a BSA life guard is a struggle sometimes.

 

It sure seems to me that the BSA saw that the troops that had a full schedule working on and with scouting things kept scouts longer and had a well run troop so they tried to give the leaders a tool to help with the program, the BSA just did not know that many leaders do not know how to use the tools correctly. Seems many leaders look at the tool as a hammer and a hammer will fix anything.

[acco40]

Okay, as Tim Allen would say - let's back up the truck. IMHO, the BSA is not trying to rush anyone, water down requirements or anything else. Yes, a component (a large component) of the BSA is business oriented and feels that FCFY makes for larger enrollment i.e. less attrition. I tink that yes, those who make FCFY are statistically more likely to remain in the program but I'm not sure that it is a cause and effect relationship. I think what the BSA is really trying to "force" is that troops should provide the opportunities for well motivated Scouts to earn 1st Class in their first year - and I agree with that stance.

 

Heck, if you really analyze the requirements, it is very easily done. My son made FCFY before I even became involved in the troop, within about 9 months. He didn't participate in any Pathfinder (T, 2nd, 1st Class type instruction) at summer camp either. What he did was attend the troop meetings, the outings and with my help did stuff at home (like the Tenderfoot physical fitness stuff).

 

As Scoutmaster, I now see a few Scouts make FCFY and many take 3 to 4 years! It all depends on the support they get in the troop, at home and most importantly, motivation from within themselves.

 

I'm sure we've all seen the opposite effect of FCFY. Crusty SMs who feel that no 13 year old should be an Eagle Scout, boys don't have maturity to be 1st Class Scouts until at least 12 or 13, etc. I'm confused by those who talk about the "responsibility" of rank wrt FCFY. What responsibility or leadership is needed for 1st Class?

 

I think most of us are guilty of having low expectations from our youth today. Set the bar high.

[Beavah]

Yah, acco40, if yeh go back to the parent thread from this one, I'd be curious to know what you think the signoff expectation was (#1, #2, or #3) on average for your son who made First Class in nine months.

 

B