Lets not talk test.- Lets look at the advancement process.

[OldGreyEagle]

Then dont sign the skill off until the scout shows he knows the skill. How do you do that? That depends on the skill but no matter how well a scout learns a skill, if its not used, it will evaporate

 

Gold Winger, also gone from the 1960's skill set is "stalking" (insert topical comment here)

 

If you have 5 BOR in a row and the scouts cant tie the knots requested, regardless of the rules, then the answer isnt as much to fail the scout for the rank as much as to examine the place of knot tieing in the troop.

[Eamonn]

Beavah,

As an adult I agree with you whole heartedly.

When we pass a Lad for something he can't do or hasn't learned we are short changing him and doing a great disservice.

Venividi,

On the surface the point you make seems to be a valid one. But many adults and some youth leaders are very good at hiding things that they can't do! "Don't worry about treading water, your going to be wearing a PFD!" Or "I've been in Scouting for twenty-five years and I've never used that whatever"

Part of the reason why OJ left the first Troop he was in was due to the fact that he felt they were handing out MB's he hadn't earned. Summer Camp was a Merit Badge Frenzy, not only with the badges offered by the camp, but the leaders ran classes as well. He returned from camp with Coin Collecting .He was just starting to save the State Quarters and Family Life in a week!! At the time he was about 13. He didn't feel that he could stand up to the adults in the Troop so he left and went to another Troop.

He has never been a shy kid and as a rule doesn't suffer in silence!! This was something he felt was beyond his control.

Soon after this happened the District Chairman took on sorting out the Merit Badge list!! One adult in the Troop was listed as being the counselor for over 35 badges. The "Recommendation" was that no one sign up for any more than five!!

A lot of the mistakes made on the way to First Class, can and will be become apparent if the Troop has a fairly active traditional Scouting program and skills can be learned along the way. This of course is not the way things should work!! But sometimes that's the way it is.

To date no Boy Scout who has joined the Ship has the skills that you might expect from Scouts who have five or six years in the program, many are Life Scouts and are very bright intelligent Lads.

Eamonn

 

 

[Venividi]

Eamonn,

 

I know that I keyed on just one phrase out of a healthy sized post. Most of your post talked about how you know your scouts and know what they are capable of, and having the scouts demonstrate skills to you. I agree with that and I think it is key. Know the scouts. Have them demonstrate skills to you(aside: is demonstrating different than testing? :-) ).

 

I wanted to step back from process and focus on the expectations, which was why I selected that particular comment. What do we expect of the scouts? Hopefully we expect that they learn not to take short cuts. Your son is a shining example.

 

venividi

 

I agree with you that scouts want to hide things that they can't do. All the more reason to make sure that skills are actually learned.

 

venividi

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I agree with OGE's conclusion, eh? BOR's noticin' repeated skill issues should be looking at the program. Passing the boy still does the boy not a lick of good, but it might save the SM or others from embarrassment in havin' it public in front of the boys that there are program weaknesses to be addressed.

 

But I'm not sure about these bits:

 

That depends on the skill but no matter how well a scout learns a skill, if its not used, it will evaporate.

 

I don't think this is really true.

 

We're talkin' kid timescales here, eh? T-2-1 all happens within less than a year or two. If a kid really got proficient at lighting a stove, do we really think he'd have his entire proficiency "evaporate" in the 3 months between the signoff and the BOR? Do we really think a kid who passed his swim check or swimming MB at a proficiency level is goin' to lose that skill very quickly?

 

If that's the case, then we're really in trouble when it comes to First Aid! Even the American Heart Association expects CPR proficiency to last for 2 years before it's time for refresher/renewal. And we better be sure to do swim checks every time we go out, not just once a year as the BSA recommends. Then there's once every 3 years for a BSA Lifeguard! Good heavens, we're basing safety on evaporated brains!

 

Nah, I reckon a kid who has really learned something shouldn't have much of a problem retaining it until his BOR.

 

Then dont sign the skill off until the scout shows he knows the skill.

 

This is what's really goin' on, eh? Poor signoffs. Like I said above, in the real world of Scouting we have PL's and ASM dads and Summer Camp staff and they're not perfect. We try to train 'em, but they don't always get it right. Some QC is necessary, eh? Those program weaknesses do happen. I'm with Eamonn, it's easier to review for QC at a SM conference, and young lads are less nervous that way.

 

That's not the formal program, though .

 

Beavah

[Eamonn]

One comment I hear a lot from the Scouts in the Ship is that we use the skills we work on.

I'm not the best Skipper!!

I kinda like to think I'm a fairly good "Dirt Scout" (Much as I hate using that term!!)

The knots and rope work was nothing new.

But I had to learn Navigation and that good stuff.

Thankfully the Sea Scouter's who I have met have been a God send and give freely of their time and knowledge.

We do have a couple of Sea Scouts who are just outstanding at Navigation and celestial Navigation, far better than I am.

Not to blow my own trumpet, but over the past couple of years I have worked hard at learning new skills and improving old skills.

Our COR is a fine fellow, a really nice guy.

Sadly he was never a Scout, but became involved with Scouting ten years ago, during which time he served as a Cubmaster and then ASM.

He has taken the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Outdoor Training, but still he is about as useful as pockets in your underwear when it comes to outdoor skills.

He has taken the Troop to summer camp a few times, but is the sort who is happy to shoot the breeze with anyone, but never really get involved.

The Scoutmaster of the Troop is in much the same boat, never a Scout, nice guy, but lacks the know how.

At one time they did have as a Committee Member a very talented older Scouter, sadly he left the Troop when his Grandson quit Scouting.

They both seem happy to hand their Scouts off to anyone who is willing to work with them.

The goal is Eagle Scout Rank for all!!

Troop meetings are based on Merit Badge classes, with experts brought in to teach the class.

The outdoor program is mostly based on the District Camporees and activities.

While maybe someone at sometime has come to a Troop meeting and gone over knots, I'll bet the Scouts in the Troop have never really had a need to use them.

For the last Jamboree I was SM. All the Scouts were to be First Class Scouts, not one could tie a tautline hitch. They said they never use it!!

I can't help but think that maybe they did learn it, but it really is a case of "Use it or lose it"!

Ea.