When exactly is a Merit Badge considered "earned"?

[John-in-KC]

LH,

 

Given what you presented, there is two things I can legitimately do:

- Validate each MB as having been done with a "registered counselor for the merit badge" (ACP&P, text box u/r corner p 26).

 

- Contact the District Advancement Chairman and get the local take on this quote from BSA Requirements #33215:

"Pick a Subject. Talk to your Scoutmaster about your interests. Read the requirements of the merit badges you think might interest you. Pick one to earn. Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors. These counselors have special knowledge in their merit badge subjects and are interested in helping you.

 

(snip of Scout Buddy System)

 

"Call the Counselor. Get a signed merit badge application from your Scoutmaster. Get in touch with the merit badge counselor and tell him or her that you want to earn the merit badge. The counselor may ask to meet you to explain what is expected of you and to start helping you meet the requirements."

 

If "Scoutmaster first" is part of the required process for the MB, as I believe it is, then I'll use the situation as a learning point: ONCE. See below:

 

- Finally, I would have a long, and not necessarily cheerful, SM conference with the young man. The main question is how am I such an ogre that the Scout doesn't want to come to me to start a MB? I'll talk about being Trustworthy and Loyal. In 90% of the cases, it'll be "Sorry Mr John, I goofed. I'll remember the next time." For the 15% where it happens again, the follow-on SM conference may well include Mom and/or Dad, and will be along the lines of "let's find you a Troop where Trustworthiness and Loyalty are less of issues."

 

Does that make sense LH?

[LongHaul]

Yes John it does make sense and at first I thought you were going to pin me and win the game in the first round but you gave me an out. So on to round two. National has already said that the things you would be speaking to the DAC about are procedures and not requirements. You talk about trustworthy and imply that in the troop you serve as Scoutmaster for trustworthy means doing what you say to do. Don't know about that. If we as adults can't differentiate and accept the difference between requirements, policies, procedures and just plain what we want how can we expect the boys to make those distinctions?

You use the term local take when referring to BSA policy. How does local take fit in with trustworthy as it relates to our signing an adult application that said we would comply with BSA rules, regs and such. And how does it fit in with loyalty as it applies to National and its rules, regs and such? Yes local councils have a lot of latitude in many areas but requirements for rank and MBs seem to be a hot topic and National has said no alterations, additions, or subtractions.

LH

 

[John-in-KC]

LH,

 

First, I don't think our understanding of the advancement method is a game. For the kids, learning should be fun. For us adults, making sure we support them is the difference between "Man Scouts" and Scouters.

 

If I cannot trust a youth not to bypass me when he's looking to start an MB (and BTW I encourage Scouts to go out-of-troop for MBs), then how can I trust him in other things. I'll accept what he's done, but after a couple of rounds, it's fairly obvious to me that he, his parents, and I do not see eye to eye on the Values Method: He belongs in a MB mill, not my Troop. Once the MB is in, though, it's my job to get it to they system.

 

As far as "local take" goes, I've found my DAC to be a sterling fellow, who is pretty dead-on to the mark on advancement. Usually, when I call him, I'm asking for a sanity check. He's validated me a couple of times, dialed me back more than once, and said "you can go farther" more than once.

[LongHaul]

And I thought this was going to be fun. I didn't mean to imply that I thought the advancement process was a game, I was referring to the game you and I entered into when we decided to "play". You seem very sensitive about not having all the control you want with regard to MBs. While I may understand some of your concerns I question the concept that if you are not in control then the boy belongs in a MB mill. As for your DAC being a sterling fellow that is pretty dead on to the mark about advancement, have him get the official position from National about the difference between requirements, policy and procedure.

Actually from your other posts over the years I was kinda expecting a different response from you. Kinda along the lines of "If I got 6 MBC signed cards from one of my Scouts and I had not issued them originally I'd be on the phone to my DAC to find out why MBCs were working with boys without the knowledge of the scouts SM or designated unit leader.

LH

[John-in-KC]

LH,

 

OK

 

No, to your last... that's crying over spilt milk. It's something worth discussing directly with the MBCs in question downstream.

 

I do like order more than disorder. At the same time, I've seen the consequences where the adults didn't do their tasks as regards the youth. I'm learning, slowly but surely, to err in favor of the Scout, if there is any shadow of a good reason so to do.

 

 

[CHUCKL-UC]

THE CLEAR AND SIMPLE ANSWER IS THE WAY IT PUBLISHED IN THE ADVANCEMENT COMMITTEE HANDBOOK. WHEN A BOY SATISFIES THE REQUIREMENTS SET FORTH, THE MBC SIGNS THE CARD. THAT IS THE EFFECTIVE DATE THAT THE BOY EARNED THE BADGE.

THERE IS NO RETESTING ALLOWED OR NEEDED.

AS FAR AS WHO CAN BE A MBC, AGAIN THERE IS ENOUGH SCOUT LITERATURE OUT THERE. THE ADVANCEMENT COMMITTEE HANDBOOK WOULD BE A GREAT PLACE TO START!!!

STOP CREATING PROBLEMS AND REINVENTING THINGS THAT ARE ALREADY IN PLACE. WE ARE NEARLY 100 YEARS OLD - THE PROGRAM AS DESIGNED WORKS!!

[sst3rd]

Chuck,

 

 

Get a grip. They get to discuss, and you can't tell them otherwise. Learn something.

 

sst3rd

[LongHaul]

Welcome CHUCKL-UC, in case you are not aware of it, using all caps is considered yelling and your posts will be responded to differently by some forum members. If you want in on this game you should search this topic from the home page for some background. We are aware of what the ACPP #33088 says and we discuss it now and again. This particular time we are discussing the wording in the ACPP#33088 against the concept that a SM or troop AC can challenge the validity of the MB after the MBC signs the card and not forward said signed MB card for recording. We have in the past discussed the concept that a BOR can challenge the validity of a MB already recorded in Scout Net and deny advancement. Both of theses concepts are the result of wording in official BSA text. Quoting the "book" just slows things down if you don't keep up with the thread.

 LH

[CalicoPenn]

My first question for the lad that brings me six signed blue cards that I have never seen before is "Where did you get these cards?" The answer to that question leads to my response to the lad. He may have gotten them legitimately (as a Scout in another troop, or under a previous Scoutmaster and he hadn't completed the requirements until much later). He should be getting the blue cards from the troop in some way or another in the first place. If mom or dad picked them up at the scout shop, the Scoutmaster and Committee Chair needs to buy the parent(s) a cup of coffee and explain the procedures to them.

 

No matter, though - whether it first means a discussion about proper procedures, trustworthiness, and goals - I'm still inclined to go ahead and sign the Scoutmaster portion of the blue cards and turn them in for the badges. A quick and polite call to the merit badge counselor(s) to request that they make sure that Scouts from your unit have pre-approved blue cards doesn't seem out of order to me either. Quite frankly, if the Scout worked with a counselor and earned the badge to the counselor's satisfaction, I'm not going to hold him up on it - all a Scout would need to do is ask for a signed blue card, bring it to the counselor he worked with to have it re-signed.

 

As far as the original question - the merit badge is earned when the merit badge counselor signs the blue card indicating that s/he is satisfied that the requirements were met. There is no retesting and no board of review for merit badges. After the blue card is signed by the merit badge counselor, the scout turns it in so the badge can be secured (and that means so the troop can go to council office to physically get the badge to present to the scout - it does not mean so the troop can hold a board or review for the badge).

 

In a board of review for rank, it is approporiate for the board to ask a scout what they got out of earning a merit badge (did it meet the scouts expectations, are they interested in learning more about the subject (many of the merit badges are "career exploratory" merit badges), was there anything truly outstanding/memorable about the badge. It is not appropriate to test the scout on "requirement 4A".

 

The Scoutmaster's signature is an acknowledgement that s/he talked to the scout about earning the merit badge, that the scout has done his prep work (ie. has the merit badge book and read the requirments), and has provided the scout with the name and number of a counselor (or counselors to choose from) for the badge. It should be extremely rare for a Scoutmaster to refuse to sign a blue card and provide names for a merit badge counselor. The few times it might be justified is if the scout tries to earn merit badges outside a logical order (or outside a prerequisite order - for instance, trying to earn the Lifesaving Merit Badge without first completing the Second and First Class swimming requirements).

 

As for the aside question on the troop policy requiring the son of a counselor to have another scout there to earn the badge is kosher or not - the short answer is not really - and the long answer is that a Merit Badge Counselor may work with their own son, may work with any other lad - inside or outside the troop, and may even choose not to work with their own son. The MBC is not a troop level position, even for those counselors that choose only to counsel scouts from their own troop, therefore the MBC is not required to follow "troop policy" even if they are counseling members of their son's troop. They are only required to follow the policies as set down by council and national. The G2SS requires that there be no one on one contact between and adult and a youth - there is an exception for parent and child. That being said, in the interest in preserving peace with the unit, most counselors that work with just one unit will follow those procedural requests - however, the unit needs to be flexible enough to understand that a scout may drop out of the process and that scout's decision shouldn't be holding up the advancement of another scout. As long as G2SS is being followed, then the troop should accept the badges.

[LongHaul]

OK Calico let's play. The boy has never been in another troop and you have been his SM for the entire time. In answer to where did you get these cards he tells you; "My cousin lives on the other side of the council and last night my aunt asked if I wanted to go with them to this Merit Badge College." In looking at the cards in your hand you see a signed card for LAW merit badge. You ask him "What was this one like?" He says; "We sat for an hour and listen to a guy tell us what it is like to be a policeman." You see another for First Aid to which he says: "Some firemen put on a big demonstration, I fell asleep for a while." This boy has done everything a duly registered MBC has asked of him and has received certification of completion in return. What do you do now? Is the badge earned when the card is signed or not?

 LH

[CalicoPenn]

Ok LH - I'm game.

 

I'm going to ask the Scout if he feels he has truly earned the badges, is satisfied with what he learned, and wants me to sign off on them.

 

If he say's yes, I'm going to sign off on the cards and get him his merit badges - a merit badge counselor signed off that the lad met the requirements to the merit badge counselors satisfaction. Note the wording - met the requirements to the merit badge counselors satisfaction. There is nothing in the advancement policies and procedures that state the scout has to meet the requirements to the scoutmasters, or the committees, or the board of reviews satisfaction - the badge is earned when the scout satisfies the requirements to the merit badge counselors satisfaction. In your hypothetical, does this mean the program has been diminished? Yes, I would agree that it has, but its not my call as scoutmaster to deny the boy a merit badge that a registered merit badge counselor has certified that a boy has earned.

 

My next three steps are as follows:

 

1: I'm placing a call to the Council Advancement Chair to complain about the quality of merit badge work and counselors that were present at this merit badge college and let the council fix that problem.

 

2: I'm suggesting to the PLC that they make time at the next few meetings for the new First Aid Merit Badge recipient to teach everyone else the skills they need to earn the First Aid Merit Badge (and/or all the other merit badges he "earned" at this merit badge college).

 

3: I'm having a long talk with the lad at his next Scoutmaster's Conference about Scout Spirit, the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the purpose of merit badges and the importance of completing all the requirements.

 

If he say's no, he doesn't feel he really earned them, I'm congratulating him on his trustworthiness, filling out new blue cards for all of them, getting him lists of the merit badge counselors for them, and encouraging him to truly earn them.

 

Calico

[LongHaul]

OK, before I begin round two let me say that your #2 is exactly what I did with 3 boys who earned First Aid MB in a manner such as the one I described. I was promptly called in front of the TC by the CC for exposing these poor boys to shame and embarrassment. These poor boys should not be held responsible for the lack of QC on the part of council. These poor boys attended the "class" in good faith and did exactly what they wee asked to do. Blah Blah Blah. One of these guys actually got to the point that all he needed was an Eagle project but neither he nor his mom could figure how go get credit without actually doing the work before he aged out.

On to round 2;  So, when we get to the part that it is a SMs job "To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank" we conclude that what a Scout is supposed to do is obtain by what ever means accreditation for completing certain tasks not necessarily doing those tasks? Same being said for the BOR?

LH

[CalicoPenn]

I can sympathize with you on the interference, err.. questions by the TC - I'd love to know what your response to them was. My response would have been that I'm not holding those boys up to any higher standards than I am any other scout who has earned the first aid merit badge - anyone who has earned the badge should expect to be called upon to teach the skills to the rest of the troop. Now, I'm not suggesting it be sprung on them the night of the meeting - on the contrary, I'd make sure the boys were given plenty of planning time (ie... Scout Johnny, the PLC wants to have a session on the first two requirements of the First Aid Merit Badge next week and want you to lead the session - don't hesitate to call the SPL or myself if you need some help preparing. Figure on about 20 minutes for the presenation). A little reminder to the TC that this is the way the program works - Scouts learn skills then pass those skills on to other Scouts, should be more than sufficient to silence the nattering nabobs of negativity. If you show that the scout was given plenty of notice and time to study up and plan, then the scout is the only one to blame for any shame or embrassment he feels because he's not prepared.

 

Round 2: Making sure the Scout has done everything required for the rank is not the same as testing the lad on anything he has done for the rank. It means sitting down with the lad and his book to make sure all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. If one of the requirements is that he earns 4 merit badges, one of which must be an Eagle required merit badge, then the Scoutmasters task is to check to see that the scout has earned 4 merit badges and that one of them is Eagle required. If he has 4 merit badges, and none of them are Eagle required, he hasn't met the requirement and isn't ready for his BOR. It isn't to make sure that he earned them to the Scoutmaster's satisfaction. Same for every other requirement - did the Scout complete all of the requirements (does he have the proper sign offs, etc.)

 

Yep, that means no Scoutmaster (or for that matter, BOR) judgement is involved - just a check of the facts. Where the Scoutmasters judgement comes in is in Scout Spirit.

 

Calico

[LongHaul]

>>If one of the requirements is that he earns 4 merit badges, one of which must be an Eagle required merit badge, then the Scoutmasters task is to check to see that the scout has earned 4 merit badges and that one of them is Eagle required. << Exactly my point and the topic of this thread when is the badge considered earned. Define earned. As I posted is earned defined as obtain accreditation by any means?

 LH

[Gold Winger]

This is so simple. If the badge isn't "earned" until it is entered into ScoutNet then a Scout might have to wait months before he could have a BOR for Life. "I know that you finished those merit badges Tom, but they haven't been earned yet."

 

However, the date that should go on the advancement report is the date on the blue card and that is the date that Scout Net should reflect.

 

So, if a Scout comes running in to a BOR, all out of breath and says, "Sorry I'm late but I had to stop by Mr. Smiths house and get my Camping blue card signed," would we say, "Sorry but that hasn't been entered into Scout Net"?