When exactly is a Merit Badge considered "earned"?

[Eamonn]

I have sat in on a lot of Eagle Scout BOR.

Never once has anyone asked for or gone over the blue, white, pink or any other colored cards.

When the time came for OJ to complete his Eagle Scout Application, he phoned the Council Service Center and requested a copy of his advancement report. He transfered that information onto the application. He did take that report with him to the BOR, but no one asked to look at it.

 

My big problem with all of this is that I know the Scouts I serve.

When the time comes that the Lad is ready to ask for an Eagle Scout BOR, we have a chat (Conference). 99.9% of the time I know a lot about the Lad.

He knows that I know!!

Him knowing that I know goes a long way to prevent any sort of monkey business.

I have been an adult in Scouting for a fairly long time. To date I have never ever heard about a Scout trying to bribe a MBC! Hack into Scoutnet or do anything like this.

Sure there are Scouts who may have badges that they have been given without meeting all the requirements.

But this is not the Scouts fault. They didn't sign the card saying that the requirement had been met.

For a very long time our District Merit Badge Counselor list was a real mess (In fact it was unfix-able and we had to start over.) I'm almost certain that a lot of the badges "Earned" were signed off by people who had never been approved. This wasn't the fault of the Scout. Maybe the SM should have taken more care? But a lot of the fault was the Districts for not having a list that worked.

Even after we managed to get a list that worked, it turns out that no one any where is checking who is signing off. A card goes into the Service Center and it could be signed by Santa Clause!! Of course the hope is that Mr. Scoutmaster is a trustworthy individual.

Re. Lost Cards or badges that a Scout has completed and are not in the system? I'm happy that I know the Scout, I know if he is trying to pull a fast one or not!!

I really like the Scouts I serve, they know it. If Tim claims to have earned the Lifesaving MB and I have seen him struggle to pass the BSA swim test, he knows that I'm going to say something or the eyebrow is going to go up!!

Sure I'll tell him to "Come off it!!" We will find a way to fix the problem and we will have a chat about what the Scout Law and Oath should be about.

If you know the Scouts and have a real relationship with them, all this stuff just doesn't happen. Or if it does you know how to deal with it in a nice way.

Eamonn.

[Beavah]

Yah, what Eamonn said!

 

I'm not sure where da odd notion of cheats and villains is comin' from. Any SM worthy of da uniform knows his/her kids and knows the score. The SM is the person who is goin' to catch any hanky-panky, not the district folks.

 

So in Beavah's magical world, there is no requirement for record keeping or verification.

 

Don't know where I said that, mate, though I do think Scouting is a Magical World for kids!

 

There should be ordinary record-keepin' to serve the lads. Some troops use TroopMaster, some use paper, quite a few use blue cards, most use rank/MB award cards. Some use scout books for signoffs, some use troopmaster, some have a website, some use dat advancement wall poster or Scribe record book that Supply sells. Maybe a few use tatoos . There's no form specified, except the online submission to council or the paper Advancement Report Form for council. Or, put in GW's language "show me a rule anywhere that specifies that blue cards are required (or mean anything at all)."

 

There are some principles, of course. MBC's are the ones who approve MB's, so a troop advancement chair or SM should have some form of direct communication from a known and registered MBC before submitting an advancement report. That direct communication might be a blue card, or a paper form from a camp, or an email, or George telling him at a meeting that Billy just finished Citizenship in the Community. It should not just be a statement from a scout.

 

But do we honestly know any troop that would accept a scout walkin' up and sayin' "give me Lifesaving MB?"

 

It's a kids' program, not a review for the Congressional Medal of Honor. Boy Scouts of America, not BureaucratS of America. There's a role for paperwork, but it ain't to put up lots of artificial hurdles for kids or busywork for adults.

 

Beavah

 

[Joni4TA]

I think I view the whole MB and rank process a bit differently than most because of military service and having moved around so many times during both my son's tenure as Scouts.

 

As Eamonn said, a SM should pretty much know his Scout well. But when you get a boy that transfers into your Troop at the age of 17 and his official record isn't straight, it gets difficult. This is what happened to my oldest son. He had to "prove" his Eagle worthiness in a short period of time. He was fairly close to 18. What the newest Council had for his record was basically only what he earned in that Council! Maybe that's why somewhere near EBOR time he had to provide all those Blue Cards. So that's my only experience with the EBOR process.

 

I just accepted the scrutiny of my son's MB's and ranks. At the time I thought ALL Eagle candidates had to show their Blue Cards and prove their Advancement record. Now I know differently, but it hasn't changed the fact that I encourage every Scout to use the Blue Cards if they can, based on my family's experience.

 

I can't help but wonder if my son didn't have all his blue cards, would the Board have denied him Eagle?

[John-in-KC]

FScouter,

 

As I've said before elsewhere, Council Service Centers aren't perfect. I was unable, across 3 years of being a unit advancement coordinator, to get a MB OFF EagleSons record... one I know for a fact he never earned.

 

I submit there is a legitimate need for an adult to help an Eagle Candidate negotiate the rapids of getting the Eagle app ready. Is there really added value to the Scout in teaching him the lesson the bureaucracy lives to kick back items not perfectly completed? If the Scout is ready, if from the Scoutmaster's perspective he is qualified to stand his Eagle BOR, then yes, we should help him get through the administrative hurdle.

 

If that's what you meant by having a Man Scout gatekeeper, so be it. I qualify. If you were talking about those who would re-test the young man, I agree with you 100%. Our job is to move them along to adulthood. That's a good thing, I think.

[Beavah]

I can't help but wonder if my son didn't have all his blue cards, would the Board have denied him Eagle?

 

Nah. But as J-in-KC points out, this is where a troop adult should be helpin' out.

 

The council registrar can pull your son's records from ScoutNet if yeh know each council & troop that your son was in.

 

If not in ScoutNet, the council registrar can call each council directly and talk to their registrar and look up da paper records.

 

Now, what if one of your son's troops had never submitted paperwork on his Citizenship in da Nation badge?

 

Well, then the most practical thing is for someone in his current troop to look at a signed MB award card that your son has, and fill out a new Advancement Report Form with that date. Or, if he doesn't have a MB award card, a blue card. Or he calls up your son's old Scoutmaster/TAC, and submits a report on his say-so.

 

Only gets ugly if your son kept no records, and his old troop never submitted an Advancement Report, and his old troop folded, and everybody in his old troop who knew anything died.

 

Beavah

 

[Hunt]

"Only gets ugly if your son kept no records, and his old troop never submitted an Advancement Report, and his old troop folded, and everybody in his old troop who knew anything died."

 

I wish that scenario was far-fetched! But I agree with you that most paperwork problems should be fixable.

[Gold Winger]

"It's a kids' program, not a review for the Congressional Medal of Honor. Boy Scouts of America, not BureaucratS of America. There's a role for paperwork, but it ain't to put up lots of artificial hurdles for kids or busywork for adults."

 

Gotta love it. With one side of the mouth folks like you say, "Oh, that's not important" but with the other side, you complain about people taking shortcuts.

 

It's a game, like baseball or soccrer and has rules and expectations. Heck, to have your kid play soccer, you have to provide a birth certificate to prove his age. Hey, it's only a game.

 

But there are rules and whenever there are rules, there will be people who try to circumvent those rules. We have an obligation to make sure that the rules are followed by all involved.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

We have an obligation to make sure that the rules are followed by all involved.

 

Nuthin' wrong with makin' sure a kid actually learned something or got the quality program he should.

 

Just many different ways of doin' that. Good ways and bad ways even.

 

Most of da good ways of doin' it don't involve an obsession with paperwork. They involve a relationship with da kid.

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

You seem to be the one obsessed with paperwork with your revolt against record keeping.

 

Life is filled with paperwork. Every game that I umpired for my 20 year career ended with me signing the scorebook. If I didn't, the game never happened. Would the league have rejected the scores if I hadn't signed? Don't know, never didn't sign.

 

Birth, death, work, college, all filled with paperwork. About the only thing that doesn't involve paperwork is falling in love but marriage and children involve tons of paperwork.

 

I'm not obsessed with it, it is just a fact of modern life.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Here's my take. However the SM informs the MB Counselor that Scout X is ready to start abc MB is program in nature, and the Scout is part of what happens.

 

However the MB Counselor informs the SM that Scout X has completed abc MB is program in nature, and the Scout is part of what happens.

 

How the SM and the Troop Committee capture the information, for the sake of Scout X, get it to the Council Service Center, and get the info into ScoutNet (which with few exceptions is the only record BSA cares about) is support in nature, and should be transparent to the Scout.

 

Our job as Scouters is to make this transparent. It's not as though he's piloting a B-52 from Minot to Barksdale with the wrong weapons pod, and some emergency action officer falls on his sword drafting a BENT SPEAR report.

 

Usually, beyond the learning, the Scouts share of the burden is to get notification from the MBC to the troop.

[Gold Winger]

I view the Scout as part of the archival process much like we were back in the olden days before parents became obsessed with their kids' homework. We kept our homework and quizes in case the teacher had made an error in recording the grades. "Hey teach! Why'd I get a C?"

 

We keep saying that part of Scouting is teaching responsibility but we seem to keep taking that away from kids in general. Don't worry about keeping track of anything, we'll do that. I've been told that we're supposed to tell the Scouts when they are ready to advance.

 

Maybe I'm unusual but I don't think so. Forty years ago, I knew when basketball and baseball practices were and it was my responsibility to get there. When I was a Cub Scout, I knew what I had to do and pestered my mother until she'd observe it an sign off in my book. Had I gone on to Boy Scouts, I would have known what I needed to do and I wouldn't have wanted my parents to get involved. From gradeschool on, I kept track of my assignments and took care of them. Sure I was the classic "wait until the last night" guy (still am) but I didn't drag my mother into it. It was my job to get to the SATs and my job to fill out the college applications.

 

What do I see today? Parents driving their kids to baseball practice even though it is only 1/2 mile away. When the kid is late for baseball, scouts or whatever, the parent usually says, "I forgot and Jimmy wasn't ready in time." What happened to "Mom! I have baseball, let's go!"

 

As a society, we're incredibly two faced when it comes to our kids. In one breath we'll talk about how mature they are. .. "They're old enough to make up their minds about sex" but when Suzy gets pregnant, instead of making her take responsibility, the parent take over raising the child. "My kids are taking college level classes in the 9th grade, isn't that great." Then have the audacity to complain about the amount of homework because it interferes with other activities, after all Jimmy is just a kid. Sure we'll let our daughter go to the Dominican Republic for Spring Break, she's old enough. Oh my, how was she supposed to know that those six guys wanted to have sex with her, she's just a kid.

 

Maybe if we make kids take responsibility for their own activities, we might be more willing to step in when we need to.

 

 

[Beavah]

Every game that I umpired for my 20 year career ended with me signing the scorebook.

 

And every MB or rank a boy earns ends with you signin' an Advancement Report Form.

 

What's da difference?

 

If as an umpire you choose to use a blue form for recordin' things between innings, or yeh have a pocket clicker for rememberin' balls and strikes, or you have your friend Charlie sit in the stands and keep notes, or yeh give each kid a sheet after his at-bat and collect 'em all at the end of the game, with a signature on each from da coach.... doesn't matter. Those are all fine, eh? Use whatever works for yeh. I imagine you'd have some suggestions for other umpires about what works, but that yeh wouldn't mind a fellow ump usin' his iPhone as a record book.

 

Just submit the Scorebook/Advancement Report Form when you're done. Dat's what's official. For all da other stuff until that point, do what works just don't make it too complimicated, eh? Unless managing bureaucracy is one of your Aims for da kids.

 

Yah, and sure, if da league loses the Scorebook/Advancement Report Form, your iPhone record might be a convenient backup. But that's all what KC calls the "transparent" side, eh? Not a kid thing. I don't reckon you expect the league MVP to produce all his signed at-bat sheets for the season in order to get his award, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

Your analogies break down because, as an umpire, I don't care about MVP I'm at a loss to figure out what Charlie would be doing in the stands or why'd I give a player anything to show that he batted, that's not the umps responsibility. By rule, I don't care who is standing in the batters box. The same player could bat six times in a row and I wouldn't say a word.

 

However, to continue with your attempt to follow my logic. I sign the book, the team phones in the scores but they hang onto the book to prove that they did what they say they did.

 

You seem to want to lift all burdens from the shoulders of the kids. After all, they're kids and can't really be expected to keep track of things or even pay attention to what's going on. They're kids and are supposed to be having fun. After all, isn't Scouting about having fun.

 

Let the PLC make the decision of where to go for summer camp but don't expect a Scout to hang onto his own records. Doesn't track true for me.

[LongHaul]

Ive re-read all the posts in this thread several times, Im trying to figure out how to use it to teach Communications. The evolution of this thread from a legitimate question concerning procedure to a discussion of parenting and sexual awareness is not unique for this forum. The fact that several members have noted that the original question had been answered BUT.is also not unique to this thread. I just wonder if anyone realizes that the original question has not been answered. When is a Merit Badge considered earned, when the MBC signs the card or when the SM signs off? Lets accept for the sake of discussion that when the SM signs off means that the SM forwards the MB certification for entry into Scout Net. We have told Aquila that ;

>>The merit badge is earned when a registered counselor signs the blue card.>You can question the card if you have reason to believe that fraud was involved The you here being the SM?>Aquila, what's your role in this troop? Like this makes a difference in the answer to a question of procedure.>In terms of official answers, there are two:

 

1. The responsibility for merit badges shall rest with the merit badge counselor approved by the local council and district advancement committee... The merit badge counselor shall prepare and qualify youth members. (R&R X c13)

 

2. I (the SM/CC/TAC) certify that the following record of advancement is correct and that it meets the standards and requirements of the Boy Scouts of America. (Advancement Report Form)>So common sense suggests that the merit badge counselor is the one with primary responsibility, but that doesn't mean that the unit leadership can't check up on things now and then.

[Beavah]

Yah, GW, thanks for your patience. I doubled with you on the last message, but I really enjoyed the examples! I'm understandin' now.

 

Nuthin' wrong with you in your troop wantin' kids to keep their own records as part of teaching personal responsibility or whatnot, if that's an Aim for yeh or you find it works.

 

Just recognize that the League/BSA doesn't care. They're goin' by the score that got phoned in/keyed in/submitted on an advancement report form. That's what's goin' to be official. And ultimately if yeh try to hold a kid from Eagle for not keepin' Blue Cards or White Cards all neat, be aware that'll probably be considered "adding to the requirements" and overruled if the lad appeals.

 

Wouldn't be my choice, but if it works for yeh and you find the kids learn a lot from it, more power to you as a unit. At a district/council level, where we have to serve multiple units, it ain't kosher to force such a requirement addition on every other troop.

 

Beavah