When exactly is a Merit Badge considered "earned"?

[John-in-KC]

No, GW, Eagle Boards of Review go by the data on the Eagle Application. The Eagle Application is SIGNED OFF by the Council before it's released for an EBOR. The Scout is NOT required to show blue cards, white cards, or the little MB cards that he got with his MB. He's required to list his 21 MBs, required and option, on the Application.

[John-in-KC]

A unit leader signs the MB application twice:

 

- On the face of the application, where the Scout lists his name and address, the Scoutmaster ("Unit Leader") signs off after stating "and is qualified to begin working for merit badge noted on the reverse side." That's the QC point where the Scoutmaster ASSIGNS an MB Counselor to the Scout.

 

- On the reverse side, middle portion, the Unit Leader signs afterward receiving the app back into the unit for processing to an Advancement Report and ScoutNet.

 

The Scout has earned the merit badge, but until the Advancement Report is turned in, the Local Council has no notice that Johnny did Swimming. The loop must be closed, and that is an adult in nature responsibility.

[Gold Winger]

"No, GW, Eagle Boards of Review go by the data on the Eagle Application."

 

Don't know about that. What I do know is that our district Eagle Boards scrutinze the big book of blue cards. Considering that advancement data at the council is never up to date, depending on them to provide verification of anything is absurd.

 

I know of Scouts, not rumors but reports from the Eagle Board, of Scouts who didn't pass their board because they couldn't prove that they had merit badge listed on their paperwork.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Don't know about that. What I do know is that our district Eagle Boards scrutinze the big book of blue cards. Considering that advancement data at the council is never up to date, depending on them to provide verification of anything is absurd.

 

Yah, well there's always some "unique" district out there somewhere, eh?

 

GW, da official certification comes from the Council Registrar on the Eagle Scout application, based on the council and ScoutNet records. No provision that I know of for the EBOR to sign for the council registrar, and no provision that I know of for an EBOR to overrule the council registrar based on a boy having laundered his blue cards or fed them to Rover.

 

Not sure why any district would adopt this arcane paperwork bit. Goodness knows there's enough paperwork for the poor lad in the Eagle process anyways. I can't see how addin' yet another paper hoop improves our achievement of the Aims.

 

Me, I'd be pullin' the district chair and the DAC aside for a private "Come to Beavah" meetin' if they were doin' all that . I can think of a half dozen unfilled volunteer spots in our districts and council that could make use of their fastidiousness without 'em gumming up the youth program.

 

But that's just MHO. If your district can justify how what they're doin' is a real service to the boys and the units, more power to 'em.

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

Two problems there.

 

I've been in two large councils and in both the complaint is that records are never up-to-date. So how the heck is coucil supposed to verify that a merit badge has been earned?

 

It would be very easy for a nefarious Scout to get a hold of an advancement report, fill it out and drop it by the Scout center. "Hi, Mr. Brown asked me to drop this off. Yeah, I'll take his copy back to him." If the council does have its records up to date, that boy has now Earned" that merit badge.

 

Oh sure, he could forge a blue card but when I was going over his records, I'd have said, "Hey, I don't have any record of you earning Swimming." "Hmmmmm . . . this isn't my signature. Where'd you get this card?"

[eolesen]

All the more reason to use online advancement -- it will probably take a few months for people to hack it, but at least there isn't a signature to be forged.

 

 

We were discussing an offshoot of this this lastweek at an ADC meeting... One of our ADC's was also a recent CD, and was asked how you verify a WB ticket was complete. Her response was "a Scout is Trustworthy... if you tell me something is done, I take your word for it."

 

If someone earns their Eagle thru nefarious means, they are the one that has to live with that.

[Gold Winger]

"All the more reason to use online advancement -- it will probably take a few months for people to hack it"

 

Even easier to fraudulently get merit badges. And I doubt that it will take even a few months for people to hack it.

 

I find it amusing that when I bring up a unit that violates the G2SS, people say, "Oh, that's not a big deal. Scouting is supposed to be fun! Go have fun!"

 

However, when I mention verification of achievements for eligibility of Scoutings Highest Award, people run around in circles yelling about changing requirement and excess administration.

 

To borrow from Fozzie Bear, "Funny, ha, ha, ha!"

 

 

 

 

[Joni4TA]

In my Eagle Scout son's case, he had to have all his blue cards going through the Eagle process. I don't remember exactly at what stage of the game he had to furnish them, but he did. Why? Because throughout his tenure as a youth, he was involved in 7 different Councils. No way his record could have followed him around all those Councils, without error or missing something! It happened to be missing quite a lot by the time it caught up with him and he was gearing up for Eagle status.

 

My second son, a Star Scout, is on his 5th Council. Same thing with him unfortunately, but lucky for us most of what is "lost" in the shuffle is Cubbie stuff that's irrelevant to Boy Scouts. The only thing we really have to get moved is his Arrow of Light. He wears the patch on his uniform and as it sits right now, according to the records in our current Council - he doesn't rate the AOL patch because he never earned it!

 

Then there is the issue of Summer Camp. I have yet to see a blue card actually come home from Summer Camp! All I saw the last couple years is a copy of a paper sheet with a bunch of kids' names on it, what MB's they completed or what req'ts are remaining from their partials. I am the Advancements Chair. Do I accept this as "earned"?

 

I sent a boy to a Merit Badge University a couple weeks ago, WITH a blue card signed by the SM. He said he was the only one in the whole class of 24 boys who actually had one! I wonder how many of the other 376 boys that attended the University had Blue Cards or not? First thing on the application for the MBU said "MB BLUE CARDS WILL BE USED!" Apparently not!

 

I happen to agree that depending on which way you look at the process from, the term "earned" can fall at many levels. As the Troop Advancements person, I can say that no boy in my unit will show that he's earned anything on his record unless I turn in my Advancements report! However, I count a MB as earned when the blue card gets returned to me, whatever date the MBC has signed it.

 

So what if there is no blue card for the MBC to sign, and one never gets back to me? Then when exactly is a MB considered earned?

[Lisabob]

Look I have to say that when we get to a point where we are seriously discussing Eagle candidates forging MBs and advancement reports and hacking into the online advancement system, we are facing bigger problems than whether a child has earned a MB or not. Honestly I know there are times when a boy has tried to fudge something. And honestly a Scoutmaster and the troop's advancement chair should be paying enough attention that they notice this. But really, I think it is a fairly rare occurrence for would-be Eagles to intentionally and maliciously commit fraud in order to obtain an unearned badge. So I'm willing to go with eoleson's assumption that "A Scout is Trustworthy" in the vast majority of cases, unless confronted with direct evidence to the contrary in specific cases.

 

As for Joni's question, I suppose you might say that while the boy has indeed earned the MB in such a case, there is no record of it, so he is unlikely to receive the credit he is due for it. I'm pretty sure most boys understand this so Joni, what's the issue here? Do you have boys who are up for Eagle who never turned in blue cards and are now shocked that there is no record of what they believe they've earned?

 

And finally yes, I'll agree, updating council records seems to be a common theme in the woes of a scouter! All the more reason to make sure you teach your scouts that a scout is organized. Actually I am confident that this goes along with thrifty - a scout uses his time and resources well so as to save himself and others major headaches down the road a ways.

[Joni4TA]

Well honestly my issue is a compound one.

 

1. A boy shouldn't even begin working on a MB without a signature from his SM, on a blue card!

 

2. If #1 doesn't happen - the next in line is the MBC, who shouldn't even be accepting the boy as a MB candidate, WITHOUT his signed-by-the-SM-blue-card.

 

3. If the MBC or Summer Camp counselor doesn't deny the MB work because the kid has no blue card, but instead lets him continue, marks the MB complete, and provides the Council with some piece of paperwork saying the boy completed the MB, the Unit and the Council shouldn't allow it to go through because the boy and the MBC didn't ensure step #'s 1, 2, or 3 were done correctly.

 

4. If the Unit and/or Council counts the MB as "earned" anyway, but somehow or another it never gets put into the boys permanent Scout record, not a soul on earth can ever prove he did that MB. Especially if he becomes an Eagle candidate and is asked to provide a current record of Advancement!

 

By then it's "too late" right? So then we just give the boy a pass to Eagle because a Scout is trustworthy. We hope so anyway.

 

I agree with eolesen on this one when he says, "a Scout is Trustworthy... if you tell me something is done, I take your word for it. If someone earns their Eagle thru nefarious means, they are the one that has to live with that."

 

I could go on and on with this. But it's not worth the time it would take to type it. I think we all know the MB process and where things can and do go wrong.

 

I would count a MB as "earned" as soon as I get something from the MBC that says the boy completed the MB. That could be a blue card, and it can be one of those printouts I discussed earlier that I always seem to get from Summer Camps.

 

My problem is the inconsistency of it all. And it only seems to matter to many folks when a boy gets too close to Eagle and nothing can be done to fix the problem! The problem didn't start when the kid was at the end of Life rank moving ever closely to Eagle. It started when he began earning MB's back when he was a Second Class Scout and the MB process wasn't held to its rightful standard then.

 

Regardless of how I wish it would work in a perfect Advancement world, I believe the badge is EARNED when the MBC is satisfied it's earned, and has signed off on it.

[Eagledad]

>>3. If the MBC or Summer Camp counselor doesn't deny the MB work because the kid has no blue card, but instead lets him continue, marks the MB complete, and provides the Council with some piece of paperwork saying the boy completed the MB, the Unit and the Council shouldn't allow it to go through because the boy and the MBC didn't ensure step #'s 1, 2, or 3 were done correctly.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

Time for a refresher here.

 

Blue cards are not a requirement. There is zero obligation to use them. Many summer camps don't. Some "Merit Badge Universities" don't. Many troops don't.

 

They're a convenience item for the boys who want to use them, just like scout book signoff pages (or da cute little signoff card that they sell separate from the book).

 

Point is, the BSA relies on the adult leaders in the unit for all of advancement up through Eagle. What the unit says the kid's got, the kid's got. It's da unit's program. They're the ones teachin' the kids, they're the ones responsible for their safety, they're the ones decidin' when kids get awards.

 

As it should be.

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

"If someone earns their Eagle thru nefarious means, they are the one that has to live with that"

 

That's just plain silly. If they have so little personal honor that they are willing to cheat to get Eagle, they're not going to be tormented by it in the future and will probably encourage their sons to cheat. Possibly they'll even look back as a time when "those suckers were busting their humps to make Eagle and all I did was a little paper magic."

 

So in Beavah's magical world, there is no requirement for record keeping or verification. The Scout goes to Advancement person and says, "I did Swimming and Life Saving this week." Advancement says, "Where are your blue cards?" "Oh, Beavah says that I don't need them, now give me my merit badges."

 

Maybe a Scout is trustworthy, supposedly but if we trusted them, we wouldn't have board of review or even requirements. We'd have guidelines and when someone felt that they were ready for Eagle, they'd tell us and we'd give it to them. Puhleeze.

 

" They're the ones teachin' the kids, they're the ones responsible for their safety, they're the ones decidin' when kids get awards"

 

Everything up to Eagle, Council and National have the say on that one.

 

By the way, do you have an authorotative source that states that blue cards are optional?

[Hunt]

I see two risks: the first is that an undeserving boy will obtain the Eagle rank through nefarious means. The second is that a deserving boy will be denied the Eagle rank due to paperwork problems that may not be his fault. Personally, I think the second risk is much greater, and I would be willing to accept a few of the first to avoid the second. Also, I think it's difficult for a boy to cheat the system in a major way without the connivance of unit leaders, and in that case the paperwork will probably appear to be in good order anyway.

[FScouter]

Obviously, every troop needs a gatekeeper to validate documents, "review" requirements, check and restest as he deems necessary, then apply his seal of approval only after close scrutiny. It's one of the more important positions in the Man Scouts.