BOR approval on POR

[gwd-scouter]

No, we do not have by-laws

[Gonzo1]

I know you can't add to the requirements, but you can't do the job if you arent' there. It seems reasonable to hold up a scout's advancement if he isn't doing the job - at least for a little while, give him some guidance, just a thought.

 

[troutmaster]

Once again, I have to ask why a boy is up for a BOR if the SM did not feel he had qualified in some way? The conference is where the decision is made, or should be regarding these issues. The SM should determine if Scout Spirit and leadership has been satisfied as part of his conference. If he feels there is need for growth, then he needs to not pass the boy on to the BOR yet. Higher ranks would normally put more emphasis on certain things and have higher expectation, IMHO.

 

If the scout has been passed to the BOR, then the SM has apparently deemed him to be ready.

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Troutmaster,

I agree, however, someone lese says that "National's" position is that "take part in SMC" doesn't have a pass / fail component, only sit and chat, get it signed off. I think you're right, the SM should hold them up on the Scout Spirit aspect, BUT, if he doesn't, the BOR could.

 

BOR: Gee son, tell us how you've helped your patrol as PL?

 

Scout: Uh, well, uh, I just wear a patch and don't do nuttin'

 

BOR: Congratulations!!!!!!! You pass!!!!!! You're now a (next rank higher) scout!!!!

 

Gonzo: Um, no. Go back and try some more.

 

I't not a gimme at the BOR. The BOR is part of the process, not a rubber stamp. I once actually had a dad give me his son's handbook and asked me to sign off on the Life BOR. I didn't sit on any BOR, but the asked asked me to sign it anyway. This dad wanted his kid to hurry up and get an Eagle. I refused to sign the book. He said, "C'mon, you know he knows this stuff, just sign it." I called the lad over and asked a couple of tenderfoot rank type questions, like describe the frist class badge, some easy stuff. The kid couldn't do and I didn't sign it.

 

Let's have and keep some integrity in the program.

 

[LongHaul]

Sounds to me like the SM requests the BOR when the SM thinks the boy is ready to advance. So the BOR is actually either agreeing with the SMs assessment or disagreeing with the SMs assessment. Boy gets caught in the middle.

SM " OK Billy your ready for 1st Class, I'll set up a BOR

" BOR "We don't think Billy is ready, we think he needs work on 'x'.

" SM " Billy's done 'x' just fine"

 BOR "We want him to do it better"

 SM "The SM decides when the requirement has been met, that's why he is the Master of Scouts"

BOR " NO the ACPP says the BOR decides if the requirement has been met."

 SM "Guess we need to schedule a BOR before we sign off in the first place."

The boy requests a BOR and request a BOR at any time, he is advanced by the BOR at the discretion of the BOR members.

LH

[Gold Winger]

"I have to agree with others who stated that it is the SM responsibility to see that Scouts with PORs are doing what is expected of them."

 

I guess that it is too much to expect that a Scout would say, "Now that I'm quartermaster, what am I supposed to do?" Nah, wouldn't happen in today's world.

[Venividi]

Gold Winger -

 

Just training kids to fit in to today's society as adults. In todays world of any problem being someone elses fault, if we train boys to take personal responsibility, they would be looked at as oddities.

:-(

[Beavah]

So the BOR is actually either agreeing with the SMs assessment or disagreeing with the SMs assessment. Boy gets caught in the middle.

 

Yah, well most of da time a SM and the committee should be on the same page, eh? Common vision and all that.

 

In such cases I've known SMs who sent kids along to a BOR with a quiet aside that he thought the boy shouldn't pass. He needed somebody to play "bad cop" so he could get through to the boy, bein' coach and mentor.

 

Other times a boy can just slip by, especially in bigger troops. "Joey, do you remember the steps to CPR?" "No, not really". "Who signed you off? We can't read the initials." "My grandma, but I didn't really do it." Becomes a good learnin' experience for both the boy and the SM.

 

Only times it can be a bit tense is if da SM and the committee don't share a common vision, eh? So the SM is signing when the committee wants a higher standard (or vice versa). In that case, the BOR results become a good incentive for gettin' together to get the vision and expectations straight (or for findin' a new SM). I'm of the mind that the Board should pass (or not pass) the scout based on the SM's position, and then deal with the adult conversation on standards separately. But it is their call.

 

Beavah

 

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

       You feel the TC should set the level of expectation? According to "the book" the TC should be a behind the scenes group that facilitate program not deliver it directly. The ASM and SM don't sit on BORs because they are too close to the delivery of the program. While the BOR ensures quality I don't see why a SM or the ASMs need to go through 7.5 of class room and a weekend of practical training if the TC can perform quality control with just Troop Committee Challenge. I think the SM is in charge of program and if the TC doesn't like the SMs standards the TC talks with the COR and the COR possibly with the CC decide if the SM needs to alter his program or be replaced. Either way keep the youth out of the middle.

 LH

[evmori]

Actually, GW, that would be great! When I was a Scoutmaster, I always advised my youth in POR's if ya don't know, ask!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagledad]

What is the question?

 

A few random thoughts;

 

--I know the SM Handbook says the SM sets up BORs, but I never did, our Scouts set up their BORs when they felt the need. My way of doing SM conferences was summarizing my thoughts at the end of where I felt the scout stood at the moment. Then I allowed him to choose if he was ready for the BOR. Not by the book, I know, but I saw so many boys make man size decisions at the point.

 

--The head of the BOR and I generally talked before and after the reviews so that we all had an understanding of our thinking. I (the SM) tried to always end those conversations with, "got any advice for me?". I think the present BOR process is stupid. But it will work if the players involved want to make it work.

 

--The BOR and I once totally disagreed on the performance of a scout. It hurts me to this day because looking back on it, we were both right. We just saw the scout from two different perspectives. The wonderful members of the BOR saw the overall performance of the scout, I saw his growth from day to day. I'm not sure how I could have made that better, but the scout suffered from it.

 

--I think the SM is responsible for setting expectations and accountability of performance of each scout, but I did as much of that through the PLC as their maturity allowed so that they developed those skills as well. Accountability is not as easy as we make it sound, yet we expect adults to be good at it from the beginning. I know better, that is why I wanted our sons to experience some of it early in their life.

 

--The SM is not suppose to sit in on a BOR. I did every once-in-a-while because they need accountability as well. In general you have the same SM for a long period of time who can change to improve performance. But it is not unusual to have many adults sit in on BORs. Like anything else, being good at something requires practice. The BOR needs critique just like everyone else.

 

--I think advancing a scout to the next step in his scouting career, whatever that is, requires a team effort. If anyone along the way doesn't feel that way, there will be problems. I think a constant review of the team's vision and the goals of reaching that vision need to be constantly reviewed so the team understands its mission.

 

Good discussion.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[evmori]

Great random thoughts Barry! When I was a Scoutmaster, I did things pretty much the same way.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Gold Winger]

The youth is in the middle. Just like the baseball player is caught in the middle when the coach tries to sneak in illegal equipment.

 

Should we advance the boy who hasn't done the work just because the SM signed off? Nooooo.

 

In the Troop Committee Guidebook the first enumerated purpose of the BOR is to make sure that the work has been learned and completed.