Pull-ups revisited

[packsaddle]

100 years ago, the majority of the population was rural, today the vast majority is urban, mostly in coastal areas. There have been vast changes in most aspects of society: communications, transportation, commerce, just for instance. The kinds of opportunities that come with those changes were, I think, unforeseen 100 years ago...at least the technologies certainly were.

And not all of those new things are bad. In fact, because we've embraced them so strongly as a society, it could be considered evidence for the degree to which we value them.

At the same time, with the move to urban life comes less access to the outdoors and the wild. Let's face it, wild places have been greatly diminished. Even in the suburbs, camping in some patch of nearby woods is great but when you hear the police siren or loud noise off the highway, the experience is somewhat different.

 

The ability to pursue the BP ideal in the way he originally thought has changed. But the ideal remains the same.

So I was wondering if that ideal couldn't be met through those other kinds of opportunities? For me the problem is how do we do it? And does it really meet the ideal? I'm uncertain about the answer.

[Aquila calva]

Back to pull-ups.

 

Yes, it has been 3 1/2 years since he crossed over.

 

A scout has been hanging onto this program for all this time, and been denied advancement to Tenderfoot for the sake of half a pull-up!!! This in unbelievable! And then we wonder why Scouting is losing members.

 

Lisa has been her usual eloquent self on this topic.

 

I agree with Ed on this one, too. If a scout can do one pull-up in one minute and then a month later, do one pull-up in less time, he has shown improvement.

 

"Show improvement" may be intentionally ambiguous but it is the spirit AND the "letter of the law" ("requirement" in this case) that counts.

 

[Beavah]

been denied advancement to Tenderfoot for the sake of half a pull-up... then we wonder why Scouting is losing members.

 

Yah, not to pick on Aquila (for whom I have much respect). As I've said, I pretty much agree with everybody that usin' Tenderfoot as a fairly straightforward "easy first rank" is an OK way to go.

 

Still, I'm startin' to feel that this "denied advancement" way of thinkin' might be the root of all advancement problems.

 

The notion sure seems to me that a boy is "denied advancement" rather than advancement being something for the boy to achieve at his own pace. In Scoutin', advancement is never "denied," just "not yet achieved." That's the way the program is supposed to work! Advancement should never be an onus or a mandate, just somethin' to be worked at while havin' other fun.

 

If adults and kids really have this "denied advancement" attitude, I think advancement method becomes really dysfunctional. Becomes something like school grades... a judgment on a boy, rather than an inspiration to a boy. Instead of SM conferences and BOR's along the way, (with every now and again a BOR sayin' "yes,") we get SM conferences and BOR's as final exams.

 

Probably it reflects advancement gettin' too big, and out of place in the program. If a boy leaves Scouting because of advancement (either not gettin' it, or makin' Eagle and then quitting), then I gotta wonder where the rest of the program was for that troop.

 

I'm startin' to think dat a troop that's gettin' into such a notion is better off just dropping the advancement program for a year. No ranks, no signoffs, no MB "classes."

 

Take a year to rediscover the fun and adventure of the other seven methods and let those drive the program.

 

Kittle's son seems to have found some of that fun and adventure, stayin' around for over three years without advancement. Seems to me like that's a better troop than one where a boy would quit for not gettin' Tenderfoot, because advancement is da only thing they do.

 

Beavah

 

[NeilLup]

I just found this thread and have some very mixed feelings:

 

1) Long, long ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I was a boy wanting to be an Eagle Scout. There was no pull-up requirement for TF, but for Eagle Scout, there was the requirement for Personal Fitness merit badge and one requirement at my age was 6 pull-ups. I could not do one. I couldn't come close to doing one. (I was a chubby little guy and spent 90 minutes each day each way on the school bus, so there wasn't a lot of opportunity for exercise.) I had pretty much given up being an Eagle Scout until one of the leaders made a suggestion. He recommended taking a pull-up bar and suspending it from the ceiling by some strong large rubber bands. This would allow me to do the full pull-up motion without lifting my entire weight. As I got stronger, he then suggested adding more rubber bands until I was finally getting myself off the ground.

 

I did this and it took me EIGHT MONTHS of daily exercise and practice until I could do one pull-up! It then took another 4 months for a total of one year until I could do the six pull-ups! But I did it and got my Eagle Scout.

 

2) If you can get access to a reasonably well equipped fitness gym, they may have a Gravitron machine. This allows one to do pull-up type motions without lifting one's full body weight. If, for example, one started and needed 50 lbs of weight counterbalanced to do the pull-up and after 30 days of practice, one needed only 30 lbs of weight counterbalanced, that clearly and quantifiably is improvement.

 

Another modification is to set the pull-up bar so that the Scout can start lying on his back. By keeping the body straight and changing the fulcrum point, one can show improvement. (The closer to the feet the fulcrum, the more difficult. Alternately, the Scout could put weights on his upper body from the prone position to show improvement.

 

3) Making a boy wait 3 1/2 years to become a Tenderfoot Scout because of the pull-up requirement is unconscionable. Having said that, absent some physical disability, working hard at improving physical fitness for 3.5 years and not being able to do one pull-up is inconceivable. This is particularly true since the Scout presumably went through puberty during that time with the accompanying increase in upper body strength. I apologize if ny next sentence is offensive but did the Scout really make a concerted effort or was it a couple of hard pulls, "I can't do this" and back to the couch and the munchies. The objective of this requirement is to make the Scout aware of fitness and give him a reasonable start (it is, after all, Tenderfoot Scout, the first rank.) It may be necessary both for him to increase the arm strength and to decrease his personal weight that he has to lift.

 

4) This should be an area where reason prevails. Being so adamant does not serve the Committee well. However, being unable to do one pull-up after 3.5 years of exercise calls into question if he really is "doing his best" even at the Tenderfoot Scout level.

[acco40]

If one really wants to get technical, the Scout has a 30 day window to improve (not years or months).

 

10b) Show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days. Now, I do interpret that as practicing during a 30 day window not practicing for 30 days during a TBD time period.

 

Also, one must practice, not just show improvement. I can't believe that anyone, regardless of shape, can't improve with one month of practice (barring injury). The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program (not the committee) and my hunch is if the Scout were to record his best (10a) and then inform the Scoutmaster daily of his practice efforts and then try again after 30 days he would improve and impress the Scoutmaster to boot!

 

As for myself (a SM) I allow the boys to record their initial attempts and their attempts after practicing with their parents. They can show me the results and discussthem with me and then I sign off. It works well for us.

 

[tdfoxsr736]

Acco stated, "Also, one must practice, not just show improvement. I can't believe that anyone, regardless of shape, can't improve with one month of practice (barring injury). The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program (not the committee) and my hunch is if the Scout were to record his best (10a) and then inform the Scoutmaster daily of his practice efforts and then try again after 30 days he would improve and impress the Scoutmaster to boot!

 

As for myself (a SM) I allow the boys to record their initial attempts and their attempts after practicing with their parents. They can show me the results and discussthem with me and then I sign off. It works well for us."

 

Well said. I am going through this same problem in my troop. One of our ASM's is arguing that we shouldn't hold a boy back because of the pull-up issue. I have told the scout that he needs to excercise with light dumb bells, do push-ups, and continue trying pull-ups. He was dissappointed, but I believe he will eventually succeed.

 

When my oldest son attempted to satisfy this requirement and failed, I at first thought it was a bit harsh to hold him back because of one pull-up., but I saw determination in his eyes after dissappointment. He excercised, tried everyday for a month, and in the end succeeded. It shaped his character, and his realization that nothing worthwhile comes easy. I don't understand this ASM's reason to all of a sudden go easy on this requirement, since it was he who refused to sign off on my son at the time. It was the right decision then, and I believe it is still the right decision.

 

[Gunny2862]

If they start with being able to do none, you can also do pushups, put a hiking stick across to chair seats, progress to across the backs of the chairs, and do negative repetitions from a regular bar combined with the ones listed above - start with the chin above the bar and as slowly as possible lower to the normal starting position, this method should normally be done every three days or less often as it produces a lot of tearing and requires more time for regeneration/growth.

 

This can also accelerate their ability to do more, if they just need to get more and more pullups to add to their development.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[troutmaster]

This subject reminded me of myself as a teen. Pull-ups were always almost impossible for me to do, yet I could do in excess of 25 parallel dips regularly, and 30+ proper push-ups in less than a minute. I struggled to do one or two pull-ups. This never made any sense to me, but I finally just let it go, as I was quite successful in other areas of physical fitness.

 

I asked one of our local scouter doctors about this at an Eagle board this week. He told me that this is not really that unusual. Some peoples' bodies have muscle development in the chest area that makes it difficult for this particular motion to occur, even with much effort and repetition. So, in some instances there may be a legitimate reason why a boy may have difficulty. On the other hand, most of the ones I have seen that cannot do it are simply lazy and can also not do the other exercises at even a minimum level.

 

 

[tdfoxsr736]

It was just as I thought. After working hard at home doing exercises to stregthen his arms, the Scout succeeded. He got his pull-up, and earned his Tenderfoot rank. Hard work pays off after all.

 

It is up to us as adult leaders to make sure that the requirements for rank and merit badges challenge the boys, and don''t soften as people get overly concerned with political correctness. B-P had great ideas, let''s preserve them. Events may change society, but people remain the same throughout time. B-P''s ideas are just as relevant now as they were then. Maybe we need to go back to the original ideas and see where we have gone astray.

[Aquila calva]

Kittle,

 

Did your son earn his Tenderfoot rank? Maybe he has also earned 2nd Class by now, too.

 

I see in the Personal Fitness merit badge requirements that the scout can do either the pull-ups or the push-ups. This is a good idea for the Tenderfoot requirements, too.

 

"You must use the sit-up test and EITHER the pull-up or push-up test."