Pull-ups revisited

[Beavah]

Yah, easy there, momma beara'bob!

 

Likely there's all kinds of possible reasons for the delay. And boys are supposed to do the requirements, eh?

 

Try out your arguments with a different requirement, like becoming a "swimmer" for First Class. Lots of kids who would otherwise blaze through T21 get stuck on the 2nd and 1st Class swimming requirements, eh? They're "sinkers" by body type, they have to overcome fear of the water, then build up skill and stamina. It can take years.

 

So, do we say "it's supposed to be easier, it's supposed to be FCFY, we'll accept dog-paddlin' and stoppin' to rest a few times?" Some troops and camps do, eh?

 

I think it's OK, though, if a troop does hold on for really swimmin'. And OK for a BOR to "have a conversation" with da SM and boy to ensure that happens . I don't think that is automatically "beating a boy down" or anything of the sort. Dependin' on what activities a troop does, bein' able to swim or bein' fit (or bein' able to really do first aid or know what to do when lost) can be a matter of happiness, success, and safety on trips. I personally might fudge on swimmin', but then if da troop did a lot of water activities, I might not. And some CO's can place a bigger emphasis one way or the other.

 

I'm always reluctant to judge other volunteers for their program choices. Just because they don't do things the same way I would, doesn't necessarily mean they're "wrong." And we never know all da backstory, eh?

 

Kittle, given all you've said, and given the age of your son, I think this is his battle to fight. If he's still in scouts after 3.5 years, he clearly must enjoy it. He should be headin' into high school. That's a time for a young man to be makin' his own judgments and stands without mom's (or Momma Bear's) active involvement.

 

Listen to him, tell him how proud you are of him, let him gripe to you... and let him fight his own battle here. It's da best gift you can give him for his future. Pull-ups and TF don't matter, but bein' able to deal with things on your own sure does in the long run.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

I know a scout who has been a tenderfoot for maybe 4 years now, precisely because of his dislike of the water. He can actually swim but because of his dislike he simply won't do it. He is active in every other way in the unit and he has a raft of merit badges but when it comes to that requirement, he just shrugs. And he seems content enough not to have made a single request or complaint.

I've talked with him about this many times. In the end I leave the conversation scratching my head. Go figure.

[dan]

I am in a troop that allows that a 1/2 of a pullup in good enough. I really dislike it.

 

What has your son done to improve, has he been working out, running, push ups, anything? He still cannot do a pull up after 3.5 years?

 

A pull up is a pull up, a half of pull up is nothing.

 

Is half of a 20 dollar bill worth 10 dollars?

[packsaddle]

It is entirely possible for a very fit person to remain just as fit during those early years and yet able to do progressively fewer pull-ups. This happened to me. The reason is that muscle mass often does not increase as rapidly as the length of certain bones. That is why I was able to do 10-12 pull-ups as a tenderfoot and then, for many years, I was a tall and gangly, clumsy person who was unable to do even a couple of pull-ups. In contrast, NOW, of course, I'm an OLD, tall and gangly, clumsy person, still unable to do a lot of pull-ups...and no one cares, thank goodness.

[GernBlansten]

"Is half of a 20 dollar bill worth 10 dollars?"

 

It is if you can sell your half to the guy holding the other half.

 

Packsaddle, turn in your dorky socks. You have failed us in meeting your duty to self.

[packsaddle]

Wow,....all misty-eyed, sniff, sniff, quivering chin....someone does care..sniff..afterall.

[Lisabob]

Beavah, I had this great answer all keyed in and then my computer froze up and I lost it. Grr.. (oops, the bear again). Yes I recognize that parents need to step back and with a boy who is 14-15 I think it would be entirely appropriate for a parent in Kittle's spot to have a conversation with the boy first - see if he even wants parental involvement here. If not, then that wish needs to be respected too. But there are also times when a parent (even of a teen) needs to be an advocate. If the troop committee is bullying kids over the difference between a full pull up and half of one, then this is an appropriate time for parents (with Junior's consent) to have a quiet, yet perhaps pointed, conversation with these other adults. They may have a good reason for this policy - but they owe the boy a clear and consistent explanation of what the expectations are and what else he might do to try and meet them, and it doesn't sound like Kittle's son has received that.

 

Now maybe bullying is too strong a term. Obviously I don't know these folks personally. But, c'mon - you aren't going to let a boy make the very first rank of boy scouting for over three years because he can't do a full pull up? That's more than a little harsh and makes me wonder whether these adults have their heads in the sand. Perhaps they do not realize the effort this boy has put into this.

 

And yes, this supposes the boy has legitimately done everything he could do to improve his performance. But I can imagine him getting discouraged. So what have these same leaders done to try to encourage and help him? We are not here to hold the bar continually out of reach and then just let the boy figure it out on his own. We are here to help boys develop and reach and yes - eventually grasp (usually!)- things that they thought they could never accomplish on their own. This doesn't mean lowering it either, but let's at least make sure we're helping them learn how to reach it!

 

Swimming, now, is a somewhat different issue to my mind. First, swimming is a life/survival skill, while doing a pull up is not. So it deserves a somewhat more stringent interpretation and we do a very serious dis-service to a boy by signing off on his swim requirements if he has shown improvement yet still sinks like a rock every time. Note that I'm not advocating that. Second, the chasm between having even the most basic ability to swim, and not having that basic ability, is enormous. The difference between doing half a pull up and one pull up? Not great. Probably not enough to be the difference between survival and failure to survive. IMO definitely not enough to refuse a boy rank advancement for more than 3 years, considering that the wording of this requirement is vague and lots of reasonable people interpret it differently. And third, at least boys who can't/won't swim have made it to the first rank. I don't know how others see this? But around here most troops do not view "Scout" as a rank. Perhaps this is wrong-minded of them (and me), but Scout is basically just the joining requirements and tenderfoot is seen as the first rank. So until a boy makes it to tenderfoot, he isn't very well established in a troop. Thereafter, who knows, he might be a tenderfoot for a day or for 8 years. But at least he has a foot in the door.

 

I feel for Kittle's son not only because it sounds to me as though the committee is being a bit unreasonable and not only because I don't think it is the committee's job to decide how to interpret requirements (I think that really falls to the SM, though I hope that he'd seek to build consensus). The kicker for me is that this scout has been told by SOME of his leaders that he has met their expectations, and now SOME OTHER of his leaders have moved the bar. That's not right and they may need another adult to step in and point it out so they can all get on the same page.

[dan]

I just got my scout handbook out and on page 58 its says Test your current level of fitness by doing as may push-ups, pull-ups and sit-ups as you can. It says nothing about time it takes to do them. It only says how many.

It also says to practice each of these exercises every day for a month.

 

It also tell the reason a scout should do this, which is to prepare himself for the adventures of Scouting.

 

With all of the studies about kids not getting enough exercise, why should we not hold them to doing it correctly?

[GernBlansten]

Yeah Dan,

I'm beginning to see your point on preserving the integrity of the program by keeping this slacker kids from advancing.

[Beavah]

Beavah, I had this great answer all keyed in and then my computer froze up and I lost it.

 

Yah, yeh must be runnin' Windows there, eh?

 

I think some of this goes back to what I think is a strange way of lookin' at advancement. It's the idea that advancement is "owed" to a kid, and is time-based. Gern puts it well; if a boy doesn't get an award on schedule, someone like dan must be 'keeping the kid from advancing' or as Lisa'bob puts it, 'beating a kid down.'

 

Kinda like da school situations where if junior doesn't get an "A" or a recommendation for Honors Chemistry it must be the teacher's fault. And let's not even touch what happens if Billy doesn't make first string on da team .

 

I personally just think that's the wrong way to think about scouting advancement. In scouting, advancement is learning/growing, and then recognition for that learning and growing. Yeh get recognized after you've learned. No time pressure, no "have to cover da mandated curriculum for the test". Just playin', and growin', and gettin' recognized at your own pace. Two months or two years, makes no difference. It's just a recognition of where a boy is at not a measure of what a boy is worth. That 13-year-old Tenderfoot should be as valued, as active, as much a recipient of adult love and care and support as da 13-year-old Eagle candidate. In Scouting, there should be no notion that any boy is "slow."

 

If we dumb adults don't create that "slow" notion, then there's absolutely nuthin' wrong or unusual about a 14-year-old still workin' on swimming, or pullups, or a 16 year old tacklin' a leadership position for another 6 months to really learn, or whatever. They are all equally valued. And there may truly be more joy in a troop for the 14-year-old who finally learns to swim than for the 99 who could swim when they joined. That's when advancement means something.

 

I think da trend at treatin' advancement on a timetable which National started with QU and FCFY really broke the system. The method only works for character development the old way. I can't see how it helps a boy's character to receive public recognition for learnin' or achievin' something he hasn't (yet) done well. No matter whether it's a pullup or a splint or his job as QM.

 

Being upset over a 13- or 14- year-old pre-Tenderfoot Scout is our odd hangup. It ain't got anything to do with usin' the program properly.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I don't recall seeing anything in the FCFY literature that I have seen that says that scouts must receive recognition for achieving or learning something they really have not mastered.

 

I do see references that a troop should have a program that is structured so that an active scout can attain first class in a year

 

Have never seen mention that requirements dont have to be met

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Now hold on there Beavah, I have to say I resent the implication that I support an entitlement approach to grades (especially!) or advancement. I do not.

 

I do think that there are times when we have to ask whether we are truly doing a service to a boy by interpreting an admittedly vague requirement in such a way that, just as he thinks he has met it, we change our interpretation to make it harder. That seems pretty unfair to me, yet it also seems to be what Kittle is describing. If a troop wants to take a hard-nosed approach from the start, I guess that's also their prerogative. But be consistent about it!

 

 

 

[dan]

GernBlansten

I am starting to see your point that advancements and the scouts feeling are more important than meeting the requirements.

What other requirements should we fudge on?

POR? first aid? or only tenderfoot requirements?

 

What service are you giving an scout by not following the boy Scout handbook?

 

[evmori]

So doing 5 pull-ups in 1 minute then 30 days later doing 5 pull-ups in 30 seconds isn't "showing improvement"?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

This has come up enough times that it is obvious to me that the requirement to do pull-ups should be dropped from the Tenderfoot requirement entirely, or it should be clarified to define improvement as any improvement. I have never seen this sort of problem or discussion with any other requirement--while the swimming requirements also hold some people back, I can't recall people complaining about it.