The minimum Eagle project that can be approved at the SM conference

[John-in-KC]

Packsaddle,

 

Pardon me, but: Horse Manure. The labor pool the Scout needs is people with the right skills to get the project done. (Edit: If teaching a skill with minimal effort to get the job done can be integrated to the project, that's a good thing. That said, it sounds like this Scout knew his project required at least some skillsets and interests beyond the level of "reasonable training to the task")Obstinacy in insisting the Troop be the labor pool absolutely fails any common sense test known to man. Are we teaching these young men leadership, or are we teaching them our way or the highway?

 

My Eagle is a barbershop singer. He sings in an area chorus. His ELSP was to coordinate visits of quartets to an area teaching hospital pediatrics service (this isn't our area childrens' hospital, it doesn't get the whizbang resources they do), and two VA regional medical centers. The lasting gift was a CD he filmed and produced. The Barbershop Harmony Society waived all mechanical licenses for the songs the chorus performed. There was one other Eagle Scout in his entire labor pool: The man is 70+.

 

Call the District Advancement Chair. Visit with him on scope and nature of work performed. Get his input and feedback.

 

Tell your Scoutmaster to get off his high horse and sign off.

 

If he doesn't or won't, tell the SM you've already called the District Advancement Chair for Eagle appeal procedures. Then, hand back your portfolio. You don't need to be involved in a Troop with a SM and Committee this obstinate.

 

Then help the kid find a Troop where they'll take what he's done and get to closure. Sure sounds to me like he's met every expectation Beavah described in his post.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[OldGreyEagle]

our Council Advancement guy has said on more than one occasion that you can have an Eagle Board of Review even if the scoutmaster doesnt sign.

[packsaddle]

John-in-KC, it is impossible to fault your logic. I agree. The DAC in this case is not necessarily a monument to BSA policy, however, I'd rather solve this without resorting to that level if I can.

OGE, now THAT is really interesting. I'd like to hear (read) more.

 

Edited part:

John-in-KC, one more thought. I would not hand in my papers for something like this. Instead I would (and have) stayed around to try to nurture better programs and policy implementation. I must be feeling in a 'glass-half-full' mood right now.

 

LongHaul, I think I follow what you mean. The approvals were in place. I'm going to have to work on just what it was the SM has in mind, I'm not sure right now. I'll get back to you. The weird thing is, neither of us, me or the SM, have any reservations about the excellence of this scout or his leadership. There's something else going on here that still mystifies me.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[FScouter]

From the Advancement Policies book:

"... if the unit leader or unit committee does not recommend the Scout for a board of review, or if the unit leader or unit committee does not sign the Eagle Scout application, the Scout or other interested party may appeal the decision to the next level."

 

The next level would be the district advancement committee. The district committee could then decide to hold the board of review without involving the unit.

[LongHaul]

Packsaddle,

Being a SM I have been on the SM side of the ESLP. A boy envisions a project and roughs out the idea, comes to me and we discuss it.(page 2 of the workbook) If I think it is a project that could qualify and be approved up the chain I have him write it up per the ESLP workbook. Page three of that workbook asks for my signature. That signature must be present before the DAC or District Eagle Project whatever can approve the project. If All the required people approved the project and the Scout has completed the project as described why would an SM refuse to complete the SM conference on the basis of the project? If the SM has problems with the project they should have been raised at step one, page 2 of the workbook This concept was discussed with my unit leader on. They should have been raised before the SM signed off on the project proposal. Does the SM have some reason to believe that demonstrations of Leadership available to the Scout in the original proposal were not put to proper use? I Had a scout write a plan up saying that he would supervise others in doing A B & C when in fact he did these things himself when the time came.

As to what constitutes Leadership, IMO meeting with the necessary officials and competing for grants is development not leadership. Approaching someone and having them design a computer program for you is not leadership, though I would accept that others may disagree. If your superior put you in charge of a team with the responsibility to produce A and a part of A required the writing of a computer program an you delegated that task to me that could well be seen as leadership.

As to what degree of Leadership needs to be shown during an ESLP that rests with the SM, TC, and DAC and should be spelled out BEFORE a project is approved.

A decision in this case depends on what the SM was led to believe concerning the ESLP, prompting the SM to sign off initially on that project. If the project was explained properly and after actually seeing it completed the SM says; Na not good enough then we have a situation where the SM made an agreement and is now reneging on his end. If I say I will deliver a FORD and you think MUSTANG and I show up with a PINTO, I still completed my end as promised.

LongHaul

 

[Crew21_Adv]

Packsaddle,

 

Greetings!

 

You have already received some excellent advice from our fellow forum posters. Such as the guidelines are in the Boy Scout Handbook, Advancement Manual, and the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook.

 

Here are my thoughts.

 

You had asked if there are guidelines accepting the completed project and also what is the minimum for a project.

 

There are no concrete guidelines for judgment that is provided by National. (At least I have not seen any national evaluation form to accompany the service project workbook)

 

In the workbook there are a request for the Eagle Scout candidate to report how many hours and the names of the service project participants.

 

Now I (Crew21 Adv), interpret the absolute minimum to be more than 2 hours and lead more than 2 other people to satisfy the minimum. Honestly, a Scout cannot control how many volunteers assist in his project. They can invite, they can feed their workers, they can even entertain their service project workers with movies, ballgame tickets, video games. But they cannot make their fellow scouts volunteer. As a future Eagle Scout, they will know how hard and difficult, or how easily they completed the Leadership Service Project.

 

Also, as a few forum members have posted. There is a second portion to the Project workbook. Or the "back end" of the process. That is the documentation, report by the candidate, and the acceptance of the project. This requires the signatures of the Eagle Scout candidate, the Unit Leader (Scoutmaster, Coach, or Advisor), and the benefactor of the project. The Council/District Advancement Chairman only approves the project plan, but the Advancement Chair is not on the signature for project completion.

 

Before the Eagle Scout Rank Application can be processed. The service Project must be completed.

 

Also, you asked what the ASM can do in a case, when the SM does not take action. The ASM cannot endorse the Scout thru to the EBOR; however, an ASM may be an "interested party".

 

Unfortunately, On the Service Project workbook and the Rank Application there is a signature block for the "Unit Leader", but not a signature block for the assistant Unit Leader. What can the ASM do? They can advocate for the Eagle Scout candidate, they can assist the youth, they can mentor the Scout, but I do not believe they can sign the workbook or application in the block of the Unit Leader.

 

Finally, if the Scout does not receive the signature of the Unit Leader or a committee member on his application. He (or other interested party, i.e. ASM) may Appeal a Decision. They should appeal to the next level in ascending order, unit, district, local council and the the National Boy Scout Committee.

 

Good Luck!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[packsaddle]

OK, that was really weird.

I just saw a message from OGE and then I refreshed the screen and OGE is now gone. OGE, are you OK? Are you still on earth? I mean, WOW, am I in the twilight zone...no, don't answer that.

 

Edited part:

OGE, before you went away I downloaded your document. Thanks, BTW. But that web site attempted to infect me with a trojan horse. Cleaned and deleted, the host site might have dumped you. Hope you're feeling better.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Beavah]

I'm seeing this thing as a tempest in a tea pot. However, in anticipation of a problem that hasn't yet happened:

If the SM is obstinate and refuses to sign off, what recourse does the scout have? Do another project?

What kind of approval power does an ASM have in this case?

Can an ASM approve anything involved in the Eagle rank?

 

Not sure what happened to OGE's response, but I'll try to channel his spirit

 

1) If you're the Eagle advisor, you can sign off on the project. Two signatures are required - one from da "Scoutmaster/Coach/Advisor" and one from the representative of the organization the boy did the project for.

 

If the SM doesn't sign for either the project or for the Eagle Application (it has to be the SM for the Eagle Application), then the Scout (or the parent, or you as advisor) can appeal to the next higher level. That means his first appeal goes to the Troop Committee, who can overrule the SM and sign in his stead. After that, the appeal goes to the district and on up.

 

Often, once yeh hit the district level, they'll choose to schedule a BOR and the appeal hearing at the same time. They conduct the review and decide simultaneously on the appeal. I'm not fond of that, eh? They should keep 'em separate. But it is sometimes hard to get people together twice.

 

2) None. Unless an ASM is acting as the eagle advisor, in which case he can sign for the project but not for the rank.

 

3) Same answer as #2. An ASM can can also approve a MB .

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

Thanks Beavah,

In my best 'Mr. Burns' accent, "EX..cellenntt!"

That is just what I needed to see.

[FScouter]

I dont know what a eagle advisor is. Maybe a position devised by a unit committee? It is not a position defined by BSA.

 

The Eagle Project Workbook has a spot for approval signatures for the completed project. One for the representative of the organization on the receiving end of the project, and one for the Scoutmaster/ Coach/ Advisor". The Scoutmaster would sign the workbook for a Scout in a troop; a Varsity Coach would sign for a Scout on a Varsity team; a Venturing Crew Advisor would sign for a Scout in a Venturing Crew.

 

I dont believe there is any provision for a unit committee person or eagle advisor to sign in place of the unit leader.

 

The same would apply to the Eagle Scout Rank Application.

[John-in-KC]

Fscouter,

 

In my neck of the woods, many units designate either an ASM or a Committeeman to serve as "Life to Eagle Coordinator". He or she is a person who is willing to learn all the rocks and shoals of the process, and to provide mentorship to the Scout on the nuts and bolts.

 

The SM gets the big things, the L--->E coordinator helps with the detail work.

 

 

[FScouter]

That may be, but if the Scoutmaster refuses to sign his approval in the workbook that the project is completed, or refuses to sign the application, there is no provision for some other person to sign instead. If that is the case, the application and workbook should be submitted to the district minus the signature. If it chooses to do so, the district may proceed with the board of review anyway. They should at least first inquire as to why the SM is withholding his approval.

[packsaddle]

Update, the SM is now OK with the project. Yeah, I know, things change. But this is a sign of improvement or progress or something...isn't it? It seems the real problem has to do with scout spirit.

I....seeee...dead people.

Keep in mind that the SM admits the boy has been active in outings and leadership, he still questions the scout spirit part. I can't articulate this fully because I don't fully comprehend it, but it has to do with the boy's failure to 'advertise' the project in the manner the SM thinks it should have been advertised. I'm still trying to comprehend this.

[John-in-KC]

Packsaddle,

 

Yippeee!!!! Hooray!!! Happy Dance!!!

 

OK, here is what the National Website says as regards Scout Spirit:

(Once again we are at the Rank Advancement and the Board of Review Process: Frequently Asked Questions page)

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html

 

Question: Rank advancement requires a Scout to demonstrate Scout spirit. How is Scout spirit defined and determined?

Answer: Scout spirit applies to how a Scout lives and conducts his daily life. He shows Scout spirit by being a role model to his peers, living by the Scout Oath and Law. The concept of Scout spirit is not based on how many Scouting events or outings a Scout attends, but rather by how he helps bring out the best in others as a reflection of his own character and attitude in his daily life.

 

Key words:

not based on Scouting events or outings...

 

...IN HIS DAILY LIFE (emphasis added).

 

It goes back to that wonderful teaching point of Wood Badge (no, not feedback )... USE ALL YOUR RESOURCES. This young man did. Please tell him you've at least one online friend who is very proud of him and knows he will be a great Eagle Scout!

 

Hope this helps you help him.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[John-in-KC]

FScouter,

 

Do not disagree on who can sign. Was merely stating what some units are doing to manage the methods of Scouting...