BOR issue

[CNYScouter]

I think that Eamonn sums up my feelings about this pretty good.

 

Back when I was a Scout we used an advancement record book. This was a small book that had all the rank requirements in it where as you finished a requirement it was signed off. I dont ever remember showing this a t a BOR.

I still have mine tucked away.

A couple of weeks ago my son went through my Scout collection and I looked at this book.

I was pretty much filled out through the Star rank, but after that it we didnt really use it much.

 

I dont think the answer is that a BOR can do whatever they want.

I do think that a unit can decide what -To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank consists of.

I dont think that any individual BOR member or an individual BOR should ask for something out of the norm for the unit.

If one Scout isnt asked for a handbook I dont think because one person on the BOR wants to see a signed book they should be able to ask the next Scout for it.

 

I would hope that if a Unit expects a Scout to show a signed handbook at a BOR and that Scout appeals to the districts saying that no where in the BSA guidelines says he has to show his handbook at a BOR, the district would side with the unit.

 

I dont my situation is something that I need to appeal to district.

I think a sit down is in order to decide what the expectations for a BOR in the Ship are before we do another one.

 

Its times like these where having a UC would be really helpful.

 

 

[Vicki]

CNY, I think (FWIW) that what you've written is a really reasonable response to a potentially prickly situation where a lot of folks could get upset and start throwing rule books around when all it takes is sitting down and talking about it.

 

When my younger son decided not to stay with his older brother's unit (more to do with the unit and not the relationship), I learned exactly how differently two units could handle BORs and still stay within the lines. His new unit was very much into knowing the badge, the Scout Oath and Law, the Outdoor Code and being able to talk about it all in their own words (within the limits of their age and stage). His prior unit, to say the least, wasn't into any of the "rote memorization stuff" and wanted to talk more about program, roses and thorns, MBs, etc.

 

Both, BTW, for your reference, require the Scout to bring the book and the BOR leader signed off upon approval in the box provided.

 

Having lived with both approaches now, I can see validity to both. After two years and two summercamps with the new unit, I have started to ask the scout a tad more about roses and thorns and they're OK with that...

 

Vicki

[Oak Tree]

So much of the confusion we see in Scouting could be improved through expectation setting. "No surprises!" is a good rule for managers with their employees, and employees with their managers. It works for Scoutmasters with their Scouts, and for the Scoutmaster with all of the other adults in the unit as well.

 

It can be hard, of course, to take the time to sit down with all of the other adults and spend the time needed to set all the expectations, especially given that we're all volunteers. But doing a little bit of that with everyone can pay good dividends, and if you can communicate a bit of the vision to them, then you can hopefully get them on your side with any of a variety of issues come up.

 

I think it was Barry who said that 50% of his time as Scoutmaster was spent with the adults. And I agree. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but getting all of the adults onto the same page is worth a lot. A UC could be some help in giving you the rules, but it would have to be the right kind of person. They can perpetuate some of the same Scouting myths as everyone else. Most important is for your adult leaders to agree on your approach.

 

Oak Tree

[Stosh]

If a boys has fulfilled his requirements and the SM has conferred with him to make sure he's done that should suffice.

 

If this process functions as it should and the BOR questions the boy's fulfillment of the requirements, then in fact they are suggesting the boy is not trustworthy. If he has to be processed to make sure of his trustworthiness at the last minute, then 1) there's something drastically wrong with the boy or 2) there's somethign wrong with the SM to set the boy up for a "trial", or 3) there's something drastically wrong with the BOR.

 

Every BOR I've sat in on has been a 1) "celebration" of his accomplishments, 2) review of his hopes and expectations, 3) challenges for upcoming advancement requirements and 4) an opportunity to express any comments or concerns he may have about the present troop operations.

 

If I approach the BOR with the assumption this boy may not have fulfilled his requirements, then I can only question his honor and trustworthiness. After 20 years in scouting, I'm not ready to accept that as a valid part of any BOR.

 

Stosh

[evmori]

If a boys has fulfilled his requirements and the SM has conferred with him to make sure he's done that should suffice.

 

Then why even have a BOR? Why is a BOR part of rank advancement?

 

BOR's shouldn't be rubber stamp exercises but they shouldn't be a witch hunt, either!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Vicki]

I'm with Ed on this one - younger son's aforementioned troop has absolutely declined to approve scouts at a BOR, almost always at the Star or Life levels. I will say it doesn't happen very often. We've let the scout know what he needs to do and suggested he return as soon as he's ready (we can normally put together a BOR almost immediately). We have set the expectation from the Tenderfoot level that a scout will know the Oath and Law, the Outdoor Code, the parts of the badge, and a basic history of scouting and be able to discuss them at an age-appropriate level with three adults (sometimes an older scout). Notice I said discuss. We aren't reviewing requirements, we're working on understanding what Scouting is all about and helping the scout place it in the context of the larger world. We're also working on adult association. Just so happens that this is also Eagle Board stuff, at least in our council, so we're getting them used to discussing it and fairly relaxed about it. Even if the scout never gets to an Eagle Board, it's worth the effort - he's going to have to interview for a job some day (usually sooner rather than later for a Star or Life scout) and this is a safe environment to learn those skills. Oh, my, there we go providing a safe environment in which to take risks again:

[Stosh]

If a boys has fulfilled his requirements and the SM has conferred with him to make sure he's done that should suffice.

 

Then why even have a BOR? Why is a BOR part of rank advancement?

 

>>>> The rest of the post explained it as: 1) "celebration" of his accomplishments, 2) review of his hopes and expectations, 3) challenges for upcoming advancement requirements and 4) an opportunity to express any comments or concerns he may have about the present troop operations

 

 

BOR's shouldn't be rubber stamp exercises but they shouldn't be a witch hunt, either!

 

 

I'm with Ed on this one - younger son's aforementioned troop has absolutely declined to approve scouts at a BOR, almost always at the Star or Life levels.

 

>>>>> A SM conference is part of the advancement process as well. Any time a SM allows a BOR to process a scout when the scout has not completed the requirements successfully, the SM is at fault and is setting the boy up for failure. If the SM approves the boy and the BOR doesn't there is something drastically wrong with the organization/politics of the adult support of that troop! Either the boy has fulfilled the requirements or he hasn't. If he hasn't he has no business in a BOR but if he has fulfilled them, the BOR has no business declining his advancement.

 

It is important for people to understand what a BOR is all about. We have BOR's for boys who are not advancing and should be. We have BOR's for boys who are having trouble with different personalities in the troop. We have BOR's for boys talking about dropping out or are having difficulty of any sort. We have BOR's for boys taking on a new POR. We have BOR's for boys who's leadership style isn't working and they need to try something new. And of course we have BOR's for boys who have fulfilled their requirements for rank and we get to be the first people to congratulate them and celebrate their accomplishments.

 

If a BOR is a judicial system to re-test, question the integrity of the boy , and make ultimate decisions on the scout's success/accomplishments, it's not part of scouting as I know it or have ever experienced it in my 20 years of scouting. If it is a group of adults who can support, challenge, inspire and assist scouts, then I'm thinking it is a worthwhile part of scouting.

 

[evmori]

BOR = Board of Review. To review the Scout's progress to date. Pass-Fail requirement.

 

Scoutmaster Conference - a sit down with the Scoutmaster to talk about the Scouts experiences in the unit to date. This is not a pass-fail requirement.

 

A BOR is the last thing a Scout does before he advances in rank. If the BOR determines the Scout hasn't completed one/some/all of the requirements for rank, then he should be told he didn't pass & advised as to what he needs to do to pass. And another BOR should be scheduled for this Scout.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Stosh]

I'm satisfied in doing it differently than suggested in the prior post.

 

Yet I'm curious how a BOR can "fail" a boy when all of his requirements have been marked as approved/accomplished. And better yet, how the boy got to the advancement BOR when the requirements are not yet approved/accomplished. Sounds a little too arbitrary to me to think a BOR can reject priorly approved advancement.

 

And of course there's nothing in scouting literature that states that a BOR is the last requirement for advancement. Our boys have multiple BOR's depending on the need of the boys progress for each rank. Although a BOR is not required for SCOUT rank, we have them so the boys get used to sitting with the adults and help him get a better understanding of what scouting is and how he personally fits into that process.

 

Once BOR's take on a "trial", "court" or judgmental atmosphere, the boys will no longer feel safe opening up and talking about delicate subjects. As an ASM Advancement Chair, I have had boys come and request BOR's because they were having a problem either with the SM or the SM wasn't dealing satisfactorily with the boy's problem. They boys all know fully well a SM can never sit in on a BOR. To whom does the boy turn when the bully of the troop is the SM's son? He has a BOR that can provide a safe venue for his concerns.

 

Board of Review = A group that reviews, and may I add reviews more than advancement progress.

 

Stosh

 

 

[evmori]

Yet I'm curious how a BOR can "fail" a boy when all of his requirements have been marked as approved/accomplished.

 

Let's say Bobby 2nd Class come up for his BOR & the boards asks him when he completed 2D & he states I never did and it was signed off in his book. A requirement for rank wasn't completed so Bobby 2nd Class would "fail" his BOR. Naturally, the board would tell Bobby 2nd Class what he needed to do to complete the requirement & reschedule a BOR for a later date.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Vicki]

I don't agree with Ed that a BOR should be in a position to tell a scout he hasn't completed the requirements to advance in rank. The SM is the one who ascertains whether or not the basic requirements are fulfilled.

 

However, Stosh, it seems to me the BOR IS the last requirement for advancement otherwise, and I hate to be really simplistic about this, there wouldn't be a box the same size as the one above it (where the SM signs) for the chair of the BOR to sign. That says to me, quite clearly, that the BOR can deny advancement much the same way the Senate can "not approve" an executive appointment. Or maybe I'm just making a complicated thing way too simple (sarcasm here is intended to be gentle).

 

I see it as a checks and balances system and however troops want to implement it within the really general guidelines we're provided is up to them. It's a really good way to see if your program is working but it absolutely should have a "formal" feel to it, IMO.

 

The only cautionary note that I would provide is two-fold and I think it addresses CNY's original question. (I really don't want to come off as pedantic and/or arrogant here, just really concerned that we do our best for young men who hopefully haven't been knocked around quite as much as we have (yet).) One, while advancement is not the primary objective, to the extent that we don't prepare a young man to obtain his Eagle, if he wants it, we have failed him. Two, our council, at least, is very particular about checking out the qualifications of each and every Eagle. To the extent that we don't do our part in making sure that i's are dotted and t's are crossed, we have again failed him. The scout's book, properly filled out, his MB cards, and/or the troop's record-keeping will, and have, trumped council's record-keeping in many "pushes". This is definitely part of what the BOR is, indirectly, doing when it reviews the scout's book (CNY's original question, I believe).

 

I've included a reference from scouting.org below. Note where it says the BOR is an opportunity to "monitor the scout's advancement and keep him on track."

 

Vicki

 

 

from http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html

 

Question: What is a board of review, and what is its primary purpose?

Answer: The troop committee conducts a board of review to periodically review each Scout's progress, from Tenderfoot through Life ranks, to encourage him, to learn whether he is enjoying his Scouting experience, and to evaluate the unit's effectiveness in conducting the Scouting program to benefit him. The review presents a good opportunity to monitor the Scout's advancement and keep him on track. It also gives unit leaders a chance to measure the effectiveness of their leadership. The troop committee appoints three to six individuals to conduct the board of review.

 

Question: How often is a board of review held?

Answer: Whenever a Scout completes all the requirements for any rank, from Tenderfoot through Life, he appears before a board of review. He does so after having a conference with his Scoutmaster. Note that when a Scout has completed all the requirements for a board of review and then requests to have a board of review, he may not be denied a board of review.

 

 

[evmori]

I don't agree with Ed that a BOR should be in a position to tell a scout he hasn't completed the requirements to advance in rank. The SM is the one who ascertains whether or not the basic requirements are fulfilled.

 

So if the BOR finds out during the review that a Scout actually hasn't completed a requirement, are they to pass him regardless? That would be rubber stamping to me & shouldn't be done.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Vicki]

Well, Ed, since we're not asking him about specific requirements, it wouldn't come up.

 

That was easy.

 

Vicki

[evmori]

And we are not asking the Scout about specific requirements because .....................?

 

I agree that no retesting should be done but asking questions like "Tell us how you'd did (fill in the blank) for (fill in the blank)?" isn't retesting.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Vicki]

Ed wrote "asking questions like "Tell us how you'd did (fill in the blank) for (fill in the blank)?" isn't retesting. "

 

Ed, you've gone down this road before with others. This isn't the question CNY asked, it's one of your favorite hobbyhorses.

 

This is me not rising to the bait.

 

Vicki