District Has Set Limits (7-MBs/Counselor & Max 5/Eagle)

[dluders]

"John-in-KC," I really don't think you appreciate how time-consuming being Scoutmaster is. I typically have 3-4 Scouting events per week, every week. My "Scouting widow" wife gets miffed that I'm going to meetings all the time. Just today, I got a telephone call from the mother of a Scout in another troop who took my Citizenship in the World Merit Badge class, but needs to make up one more requirement. I'm supposed to chainsaw some fallen trees at the local Boy Scout Camp this Sunday. When am I supposed to relax and enjoy some free time with my own son?

 

At last night's District Roundtable, there was a 1/2-hour discussion amongst the Scouters about the new MB limits. The District Executive has agreed to have a survey e-mailed out to all Scouters, and to discuss the matter further at the Spring Camporee coming up in 2 weeks. That's progress. 1/3 of the Scouters last night didn't really think it was a big deal to have MB limits, 1/3 said limits were in violation of BSA Policy #33088, and 1/3 thought that the District Advancement Committe should be rejecting MB Counselor applications from pencil-whipping parents.

 

Our district has 288 MB counselors, according to our DE. The problem is not having too few counselors; it's that there are TOO MANY folks signing off on merit badges in an uncontrolled fashion. The District and Council haven't been checking who is registered to sign off on various badges.

[Lisabob]

Ok so if you're that busy, drop some or all of the MBs. With 288 MBCs you can't seriously tell me that no one else in your district could competently counsel citizenship in the world. But I will say I've been a MBC for close to 3 years now, for 5 different MBs. In that time I've counseled many boys from my son's troop and only a few from outside the troop (and I am registered for three Eagle-required MBs). I'm not buying that this is a serious time commitment problem, but if you disagree, the remedy seems obvious to me. In fact, given the time crunch you're facing, I'm sort of surprised you aren't in favor of the 7-badge limit. Certainly the remedy to the problem you describe ISN'T to counsel still more MBs.

 

The problem I have seen in my district - and I suspect elsewhere too - is that every troop seems to want to counsel all 20 eagle-required MBs within the troop. And then many MBCs refuse to counsel outside the troop. The consequence is that we have a zillion people signed up to counsel the same 20 badges when what we all ought to be doing is diversifying, recruiting MBCs for some of the less common MBCs, and trusting MBCs from other troops to do a good job.

 

If the problem your district is having is with that last point then this is a training and registration issue (DAC doesn't have to accept every applicant). This is not, however, an issue with the proposed limits. That's a separate problem.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Lisa'Bob, as she so often does, hit the nail on the head. I endorse every last word of her post.

 

The Scoutmasters first service is the mentorship, growth, and development of his charges. That's the Troop as a whole in general, and the SPL, other POR's, and PLC in particular. Anything else you do needs to be prioritized relative to your service as the Program officer of your Troop.

 

If you have a need for an MBC, as a Program Officer, you can either ask your CC to help find you one (adult recruiting is a support side function), or you can ask yourself. Given your time needs, I think asking your CC to take the recruiting burden from you is a good idea.

 

You do need to make sure, with your CC, that your new MBCs are trained. I don't know how your District conducts training. As I said earlier, my District uses RT as a "one stop shop" for all unit service needs with the Commissioner Service, the Professional Service, and the District Commitee.

 

YIS.

[dluders]

Yes, I agree with "Lisabob" that every Scouter wants to have their own set of MB counselors within their own unit. Why shouldn't they? They KNOW the parents, they want to help the Scouts in their own unit (i.e., the friends of their own sons), and they DON'T HAVE TO TRAVEL FAR. Due to the mandatory "buddy system" requirement (whereby at least 2 Scouts must meet with a non-relative MB Counselor), there are SCHEDULING problems when dealing with other units.

 

What better way to "schedule" a MB session than to chat about it at the weekly Troop Meetings or monthly campouts?

 

I bust my butt being Scoutmaster. I DID approach our Committee Chairman about "gaps" in Eagle-required MB offerings within our own troop, and got only one parent to step up (to teach Family Life MB). Apparently, the other parents don't have time. For the annual Merit Badge College, there AREN'T a lot of Scouters willing to devote their time to 4 ea. Saturday-morning sessions over 2 months' time. I wanted to help Life Scouts in my own unit earn Citizenship in the World MB, so I volunteered to teach them and 50 other Scouts in our district who needed the same badge.

 

This MB-limit problem is being pressed by our District Advancement Committee gentleman who sits on the various Eagle Boards of Review. In reviewing certain Scouts' Eagle Application and Eagle Project Book, he sees a "problem" whereby the Scout is earning merit badges at too young an age and from mostly the same folks.

 

The Scouters in attendance at our District Roundtable privately think that this is mainly a "problem" wihin the LDS Scouting units. They have their own youth program, whereby all young males MUST go through the Scouting program as a "rite of passage" of sorts. 21-year-olds are told that they MUST be MB counselors for the younger boys in their "stake" (church). Since the minimum age for being a MB counselor is 21, this is "legal" but these 21-year-olds don't have the same LIFE EXPERIENCES as an older parent.

 

The LDS units most definitely tend to have an "in-house" group of MB Counselors within their own "stake." The LDS Church provides a significant portion of funding for Council operations, and since our council leadership doesn't want to "pick on" just LDS MB counselors, they're imposing MB limits on everybody. That's what the non-LDS Scouters like me are thinking.

[EagleInKY]

Hey, I'd just like to find where these scouts are that actually seek out MB counselors outside of their own troop or Summer Camp. I can't get my guys motivated to work on MBs outside of Summer Camp or the occasional MB offered within the annual plan. We've hashed that out before, so I don't want to re-open that can 'o worms.

 

My problem with the rule is that I am in a district/council that does NOTHING to help with MB Counselors. There is no district list, their is no council list. When I started the troop I contacted the DAC and asked, and he said it was up to us to get our own counselors. I asked about approval, he said if they weren't already registered adult leaders, we should turn in the paperwork to council. He said that the only reason they would be denied the right to be an MBC is if they failed the background check. He said if the MBC was a registered adult leader, we didn't have to do anything. They could do as many as we wanted. It was up to our troop to decide.

 

I followed up with the DE and have brought the issue up several times, but to no avail. Apparently this is the case in most of the districts in our council.

 

Also, I know at Summer Camp the MBCs are "technically" the adult in charge of an area. So, while Johnny Life Scout may teach Pioneering, the Scoutcraft Program Area Director is technically the MBC. In this case, wouldn't it be possible for a scout to get many MBs from the same counselor (if he were at the camp for several years)?

 

Finally, what happens if a scout moves from my hometown to yours. He's a Life Scout with 28 MBs, but almost all of the counselors fail your council's rules. Do they approve his Eagle? It seems unfair to the boys who grew up there if they do, but unfair to him if they don't.

[dluders]

Yes, I suppose I could "drop" some of the various Merit Badges that I'm counselor for, to gain some more time for my Scoutmaster's duties. I hope that people don't expect the Scoutmaster to be a robot, teaching the same-ol' Tenderfoot-to-First-Class stuff year after year. What happened to having some FUN and CAREER-BROADENING with my own son, a Life Scout? Why can't I have the latitude to teach him as many Merit Badges as I feel like?

 

Like I said before, he wants me to teach him Aviation Merit Badge. Right now, I don't have "room" on my danged "quota" of 7-MBs-per-counselor. How many folks are there that teach that merit badge? Why should I have to arrange for another Scout to join my son (to comply with the MB "Buddy System" rule), drive them to some faraway house, and waste a whole bunch of unnecessary time when I can teach him the badge myself, at MY own convenience? CONVENIENCE is the primary reason that each unit has their own, in-house group of MB counselors.

 

I still don't think my council (or district) has a leg to stand on if they intend to enforce this policy. BSA Policy #33088 says "No Limits," period.

 

There are over 114 different Merit Badges. Do you think that BSA National really intended to LIMIT dedicated Scouters to just a few of these?

 

My Life Scout son has 22 Merit Badges already. I've only been counselor on 3 of those. I'm working on another one (Cycling MB) with him right now. I want the FLEXIBILITY to work with my own son anytime I feel like, on any subject that I'm qualified to teach. How dare somebody impose a limit on me, a licensed Professional Civil Engineer with a Master's Degree? I'm not going to be suckered into thinking that there's some bogus "limit," when there's NOT.

 

 

[scoutldr]

"Finally, what happens if a scout moves from my hometown to yours. He's a Life Scout with 28 MBs, but almost all of the counselors fail your council's rules. Do they approve his Eagle? It seems unfair to the boys who grew up there if they do, but unfair to him if they don't."

 

If a scout moves into my area, I will ask for his transfer sheet (or book)...if his SM has attested to the fact that he has "earned" 28 MB, who am I to question it?

 

 

"I hope that people don't expect the Scoutmaster to be a robot, teaching the same-ol' Tenderfoot-to-First-Class stuff year after year. What happened to having some FUN and CAREER-BROADENING with my own son, a Life Scout? Why can't I have the latitude to teach him as many Merit Badges as I feel like?"

 

No, we don't expect SMs to be teaching the "same-ol' Tenderfoot to First Class stuff"...that's the job of the SPL and PLs. The SM's job is to train junior leaders how to lead.

 

Some seem to be losing sight of the fact that the MB program is not designed just to teach a subject. It is to teach the scout much more:

 

Initiative: Hey, I still need Citizenship in the Nation! I'd better ask Mr. SM for the Counsellor list so I can get busy, because I'll be 18 in 6 months!

 

Overcoming shyness: Mr. Counsellor, this is Tommy Scout from Troop 1. May I meet with you at your convenience to work on Citizenship in the Nation merit badge? Thanks, that would be great!...Yes, I'll be sure to bring a buddy!

 

Adult Association: Wow, Dad, did you know that Mr. Counsellor is a professor at Towne State and he knows the Governor! He's going to run for State Senator next fall and asked me what I thought about the proposed teen driving laws!

 

 

Are these objectives fulfilled when a scout "earns" merit badges from "Jimmy's dad" who fills out a form and is all of a sudden an "expert" (either by vocation or avocation?) in 73 different subjects (even if only 7 at a time)? Does the scout get exposed to the "passion" that a professional has for his life's work? Or is the objective just to get them to Eagle by the most efficient and comfortable means possible?

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

I think Lisabob and Scoutldr have answered the questions very well. I only add that the reason I lament the absence of such a robust MB program is that I SEE the shortcomings of 'in-house' MB programs where various parents within a troop shoulder multiple badges. The boys are not given the benefit of expanding their range of experience and they don't have the benefit, as Scoutldr says, of experiencing the excitement of specialists or experts in each topic. Instead, the risk is that the boys experience their MB program and possibly view it as little more than a 'check-off' program required for advancement. The risk is that they will see the RANK as the goal, and NOT the knowledge and experience.

[dluders]

Back on topic:

"YES" or "NO" -- Does a district and/or council have the right to impose limits on Merit Badge Counseling? I read cover-to-cover the entire BSA "Advancement Committee Guide Policies & Procedures" manual #33088D (2006 printing), and I see no provisions for any local limits at all.

[OldGreyEagle]

the answer is no, they can't Take a look at Supplemental Training Modules, Merit badge Counselors Instructors Guide found

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-125/index.html

 

you will find these items in a highlighted section

Fast Facts for the Merit Badge Counselor

A merit badge counselor can counsel any Scout, including his own sonalthough this is discouraged in order to offer a Scout the chance to meet a diverse group of outstanding adults.

A counselor may be certified in unlimited merit badge subjects, but he or she must be approved for each one. There is no limit on the number of merit badges that a counselor may counsel with one Scout. However, the Scout will benefit the most from working with a variety of outstanding adults.

A merit badge counselor may limit his or her services to one unit but still must be approved by the council advancement committee.

Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters are not automatically approved as merit badge counselors.

Group instruction is acceptable, but each Scout must be tested and passed individually.

There is no time limit for completion of merit badges, but all work on merit badges must be completed before the Scout's 18th birthday.

So, no they (the District) is not suposed to limit the numbers of badges counseled or the number of badges a scout earns from a counselor. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Beavah]

Yah, the correct answer is yes.

 

This is the kind of thing where individual councils and SE's have some discretion in setting local rules.

 

This particular local rule is used by at least a third of the councils in the U.S., I'd guess.

 

The supplementary training modules are written by outside volunteers as a resource for MBC's. They are not a BSA policy and governance document.

 

The more important answer is still "Is this an issue you want to compromise your relationship with other volunteers over? Is it worth being 'that complaining guy'?"

 

Yah, yah, I'm opposed to these limits because I think capable volunteers are a gift to the program and we should use 'em for all they're willing to give. But as a dad, my teenage sons would make an appointment with another counselor for every badge. Did Aviation with a local Flight Instructor, had a great experience. I think the overall experience for all badges is richer that way, even if I thought I was a better counselor (and don't we all!). And da kids listen more to somebody else than they would to me .

 

As to inconvenience, kids have bikes, kids have friends, it's OK to meet at the Pizza Barn or with Mr. counselor's wife around, and junior was welcome to take my keys if it was a longer drive, eh? No inconvenience for me.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[packsaddle]

Does anyone think this might be an issue for no reason other than there are only 7 blanks on the form?

http://www.scouting.org/forms/34405.pdf

[FScouter]

The answer is ... You either follow the program, defined in the written materials published by BSA, or you blow it off and do your own thing because you believe you know better. The MB counselor program is way abused and out of control in some districts/councils. Ignoring the directives that are designed to build and maintain a competent program doesn't help. It seems obvious that the "limit" solution is a clear indication that the local MB program is in trouble. It's a weak attempt to patch up problems caused by failure to implement and follow the proven, workable program laid out by BSA.

[Beavah]

It seems obvious that the "limit" solution is a clear indication that the local MB program is in trouble. It's a weak attempt to patch up problems ...

 

Yah, I agree with this, too, eh?

 

I think the biggest weakness in the MB program in the large majority of councils is failure to do a good job recruiting and screening counselors. When was the last time yeh ever heard of an application to counsel a badge being denied? Or of a district goin' to Mr. Beavah and sayin' "Hey, we just found a pilot and aviation engineer to counsel Aviation. Can you perhaps move off of Aviation and do somethin' else we need?"

 

Yeh don't need to put "policy" limits in place if DAC's and CAC's do their jobs with vigor and gusto. They wouldn't be approving dluders to counsel Cycling if they had some semi-pro mountain and road cyclists around to offer it... enough to cover the kids who were interested. Then there wouldn't be a need for more artificial limits. The limits would come naturally from havin' the best people for each badge.

 

Lots of "policy" happens because it's a poor substitute for knowin' what you're doin' and working hard to do the right thing.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

"Lots of "policy" happens because it's a poor substitute for knowin' what you're doin' and working hard to do the right thing."

Man, you got THAT right! However, I'd say it's an 'Easy' substitute.