2007 Requirements: Camping MB Requirement Changes

[LongHaul]

The distinction I was trying to make was between when you help someone and when someone helps you. who's in charge, who has the knowledge. With our large troop tents it would be difficult for our boys to set up a 12 by 15 tent alone.

LongHaul

[local1400]

Well it says you can count one week of summer camp right? Some campsites have adirondacks only and your troop may have that site assigned- does the boy get ripped off of that week? Also, the summer camps I have seen have ye ol' canvas tents on platforms all set up and you can count that. Out of 20 nights you only need set up a tent once, right? I actually always preferred adirondacks to sleep in.

[evmori]

I would say it is up to the MB counselor. The one variable that has been removed is all camping must be done with the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

If I was the MB counselor and I was asked if adirondacks 'counted' toward the 20 nights, I would respond that "I'm disinclined to acquiesce...it means 'no'."

Some troops are assigned adirondacks or they get the fourth wall and are assigned cabins for summer camp and eat meals in a cafeteria. Some cabins are air-conditioned. And none of that stuff is camping.

 

I think that part of the requirement is clear: under the stars or in a tent (tarp, whatever) but not with a solid roof and three solid walls. I would, however, consider sleeping in a natural cave.

 

Regarding pitching the tent, I tend to agree with LongHaul...the intent is for the boy to master the skill of tent-pitching and be comfortable enough to teach other boys. This, in my mind, requires that the boy pitch it himself, successfully, at least once. If he's up to a dining fly (probably not) that's great but if not then a smaller tent is fine.

 

I'd still like to know the BSA reasoning regarding the "Scouting activity" part.

[gwd-scouter]

Our Council Camp has 3-sided Adirondacks and I fairly sure that all the Troops in our District at least count one week of summer camp in those adirondacks toward camping merit badge. Having said that, I know that the Scouts in our troop usually complete camping merit badge late in their career and have well over 20 nights in tents and really don't need to count any of their summer camps.

[evmori]

Adirondacks yes. Cabins, no. Even for summer camp.

 

Let's not forget, summer camp doesn't have to be used for this merit badge.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"Camp a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. The 20 days and 20 nights must be at a designated Scouting activity or event. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent."

 

I still don't find this to be crystal clear, but I think the best reading would be that to count for the MB, the camping at the long-term camp must be in a tent--it just doesn't have to be one the boy pitched. I reach that conclustion by comparing the new language to the old language, which had led many to think that nights at long-term camp counted no matter where the boy slept. I would have to go on to say that I don't think this language allows counting nights in an Adirondack shelter, even at long-term camp. I will point out that the prior language allowed a different interpretation, and a boy who started the MB under the prior language shouldn't be penalized for the change, especially if the MBC already signed off the nights of camping. I have mixed feelings about making all 20 nights be at "designated" Scouting events. While it makes it easier on the MBC, it excludes camping that is "real" camping. It also makes the Camping MB something that you can only work on through organized Scouting events, which is different from most other MBs. I have to wonder whether part of the motive for this change was to increase the incentive to go to long-term summer camp.(This message has been edited by Hunt)

[SR540Beaver]

One thing that was not addressed in the new requirements was when the 20 nights begin. That has always been a topic of discussion in these parts. If you have an avid camping Scout who has been in the program for 3 years and is a Star or Life scout before beginning the MB, do you count the camping he did prior to starting the MB or do you start counting after he signs up? I know folks who take a stand on either side. Consider other MB's. If a kid did all the requirements for a MB last year in school and he signs up for the MB today, do you simply sign off all the requirements and hand him his MB or do you expect him to do the requirements after signing up?

 

I don't have a problem with the camping requirement having to be a scouting related activity. There will be boys and parents who want to count their RV trip to the lake as camping because they are "outdoors" and roasted weenies over a fire one night. My son has a friend whose family are avid RV'ers. They refer to it as camping. I tell him no, they are RV'ing.

[evmori]

I like the new wording. It eliminates boys trying to use RV or backyard camping.

 

As far as when to start counting, that is still left up to the MB counselor.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

It seems to me that the change should make the question of when to start counting easier. What reason could there be not to count camping as part of a designated Scouting activity?

[packsaddle]

I second Hunt's question. There are plenty of BSA events that are, let us say, less than 'real' camping experiences, so the 'scouting activity' wording is no guarantee of quality - if that was the intent. Like Hunt, I'm still curious about the reasoning behind this wording.

As for when to begin the count, that's probably best left to the MBC but I would start it on the day the boy first pitched his own tent on a campout.

And another general question, also probably up to the MBC discretion, if a boy starts a merit badge under one set of rules is there a regulation that says he has to change to the new rules if they begin before he finishes?

[evmori]

And another general question, also probably up to the MBC discretion, if a boy starts a merit badge under one set of rules is there a regulation that says he has to change to the new rules if they begin before he finishes?

 

 

My understanding is if a boy starts a MB and the requirements change before he completes the MB, he completes the MB under the requirements he started with.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

I understand the thinking behind allowing camping prior to taking the MB to count. I think it partly has to do with most camping occuring at two night intervals and how long it would take to get to 20. We have this mindset of "immediate recognition". Aww, he has done it, lets just sign off.

 

Lets look at it from a different perspective. My son is in 8th grade and is taking Newspaper this year which means he is part of the school paper staff. Let's say that this is his last time to staff the school paper. He moves on to 9th or 10th grade and decides to take the Journalism MB. One of the requirements is:

 

4. Attend a public event and do ONE of the following:

 

a. Write two newspaper articles about the event, one using the inverted pyramid style and one using the chronological style.

 

b. Using a radio or television broadcasting style write a news story, a feature story and a critical review of the event.

 

c. Take a series of photographs to help tell the story of the event in pictures. Include news photos and feature photos in your presentation. Write a brief synopsis of the event as well as captions for your photos.

 

Should he get to count this because he did it a year or two ago in school or should he do it while taking the MB?

 

Another way to look at this is the first aid requirement in many MB's. If you've passed that requirement for the Backpacking MB, is there any reason you should have to demonstrate your knowledge for any of the other MB's with that requirement? Heck, if you have the First Aid MB, shouldn't an MBC just check that requirement off on any other MB?

 

I know that the ultimate answer is that it is up to the MBC and the SM can not approve the MB for a boy with a specific MBC that he finds questionable. I just think that if I were an MBC, I'd expect a boy to do all the requirements once he signed up to do the MB and not count his hobbies or activities from previous years.

[molscouter]

Ed, the rule is he gets the option of continuing under the old requirements or he can start over under the new ones. He can't mix and match. Now practically speaking, if a boy started a badge under previous requirements and there were duplicates, I would likely count them. For example, this year Camping has had some minor revisions to it, but most of the requirements have remained the same. Am I going to make the boy start his count of 20 nights again? Not likely, although technically he probably should.

 

 

[Hunt]

"I just think that if I were an MBC, I'd expect a boy to do all the requirements once he signed up to do the MB and not count his hobbies or activities from previous years."

 

I guess I just don't understand this...to me, the MB recognizes what the boy has accomplished. I don't see why it's important that he was doing it after the blue card was signed. Take an example--one of the requirements for the Music MB is "serve for six months as a member of a school band" etc. When advising this MB, it has never occurred to me to require that the six months begin after the blue card is signed. What would be the purpose? I will say that I have observed some overreaching by boys in arguing that past activities should count for various MB requirements, and I agee that a MBC should insist on documentation where he has doubts, and should insist that the past activity fully satisfy the requirement. (For example, I would only allow use of a past trek for Backpacking if it met all the requirements--including a plan written before the trek.)

 

"For example, this year Camping has had some minor revisions to it, but most of the requirements have remained the same. Am I going to make the boy start his count of 20 nights again? Not likely, although technically he probably should."

 

So my answer to this would be that if the boy chooses to use the new requirements, I would count old activities as long as they fully satisfy the new requirements--so in this case, I would allow him to count past nights toward the 20, but only if they were at Scouting activities. So I guess there might be some boys who would have to start over, if all of their previous camping was non-Scouting--but I would think those boys would choose to stick with the old requirements.