Patrol vs Troop POR

[FScouter]

" 1) SM decides whether or not patrol QM meets his standard of leadership and service. "

 

That's an interesting thought, but it's not the rank requirement. If the SM really does have such a wide latitude to determine what is and is not an adequate position of responsibility, then the rank requirement would not have a specific list of acceptable postions. Rather it would say simply "the SM has a wide latitude and decides what positions meet his standard."

[Trevorum]

Then, how do you interpret: "...(or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop)"?

 

My understanding of the language is as follows. In every single troop nationwide, there are certain leadership positions which will always and automatically meet the leadership requirements for advancement. These include Patrol Leader, etc. At the discretion of the Scoutmaster, certain other leadership responsibilities may also meet the leadership requirements for advancement. These will vary from troop to troop and from SM to SM and so are not listed.

 

As an example of this (I've mentioned this previously in another thread), I created for our troop the leadership position of Service Coordinator. This fellow's job was to research service opportunities available (church clean-up day, SPCA booth at county fair, etc), regularly report these to the troop, and also lead the whole troop in at least one of these.

[SWScouter]

Trevorum,

 

So are you saying that for Eagle, these positions such as Patrol Scribe would not count since the wording, "or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop" is only included for the ranks of Star and Life?

 

SWScouter

[Trevorum]

That's abolutely right. The leadership position for Eagle candidates MUST be from the specified list. No SM latitude there.

[evmori]

Nowhere is it stated the POR's like QM or Scribe or Historian are to be completed at the Troop level only. Why can't a QM have assistants that are in charge of patrols? Same with a Scribe.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Beavah]

Yah, there's somethin' in the genetics or upbringin' of BSA adult leaders that makes 'em always want to go running back to some book or manual for permission or authority to do the obvious.

 

I don't get that.

 

The purpose is to help boys grow, by givin' them positions of real responsibility and service. Something that takes commitment, and effort, and some sweat. Somethin' that contributes to their troop in a meaningful way.

 

So a good troop will usually eliminate some POR's from the list. They might not have a Bugler, or a Historian. And a good troop that's really boy-run will also add a few positions that demonstrate responsibility and service at a level equal to a PL, QM, etc. Maybe that's "Newsletter Editor" or "Webmaster." Maybe it's APL, because they really run things like the APL is a co-PL (attends PLC's, leads the patrol on half the outings, etc.). Maybe it's the patrol QM, because the troop has a lot of gear, and the patrol QM's really function as co-QM's. Maybe it's the boy who agrees to be the special friend and coach for the handicapped boy in the troop.

 

Do what makes sense, eh? Just make sure that every position you "count" is sufficiently meaty to develop responsibility, commitment, and an appreciation for good effort and hard work.

 

 

[Gonzo1]

It seems that since many troops have problems with equipment that goes missing, the patrol QM may be more valuable than many poster realize, it is a responsible position and saves the troop money if gear is turned in, dried, taken care of properly.

 

Gonzo

 

[evmori]

In the past we had Patrol QM's. Worked out very well. They had a real sense of responsibility. And yes, we counted these positions as POR's for rank.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

This may just be semantics, but is there any reason the Troop can't have multiple Quartermasters?

[Eagledad]

>>This may just be semantics, but is there any reason the Troop can't have multiple Quartermasters?

[Vicki]

I would ask the Advancement Chair for the District or Council what counts. Realistically, unless you want to go over their head (and, in our district at least, I'd want to be REALLY sure of winning the point before I did that and then I'd apologize REALLY big to the AC - he was my TG at Adult Leader Training and recruited me for training staff) that's whose reading of the "good book" matters.

 

Bottom line, I wouldn't want to get to where the records are being reviewed for Eagle and have somebody say, "hmmm, no, APL doesn't count, what made you think Patrol Scribe counted?" and have to say, "oh, we debated it on scouter.com and that was the consensus."

 

Vicki

[Trevorum]

Vicki, I respectfully disagree. In our council at least, we have been informed that up to the point of Life rank, all advancement issues are handled by the troop. Period. No second guessing by district, council or National. If the blue card is signed, then the MB was earned. If the BoR signed, then the rank was earned. Period. Only at the point of Eagle candidacy do district, council and National become involved.

[SemperParatus]

I agree that there is a lot of flexibility built-in to the program on this point, and that a troop can certainly have multiple quartermasters (with primary patrol responsibilities), assistant senior patrol leaders, etc.

 

I guess where one could have a bit of a hiccup is the substitition of a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership POSITION for the stated alternative "carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership PROJECT to help the troop". It is the act of doing (project)that is important, not the act of being (position). A project has a beginning and an end based on the accomplishment of a specific goal. A position has a beginning and an end based on time of service in the role.

 

Certainly, a boy given a project of creating or keeping an active website current for some perios of time (project) can also be called a Troop Webmaster (position), but it is also possible that a Troop Webmaster (position) could do very little in terms of work (project). Likewise, you would really need to assess a webmaster's leadership of others. Creating (or updating) a website is a great project - but leadership of others may not exist.

 

I am inclined to keep SM-assigned leadership projects fairly simple, easily observable and with a short time frame (e.g., leading other troop members in building a canoe rack), rather than turning it into a position of responsibility, which may or may not constitute a leadership project.

[Vicki]

Trev, I don't think we're disagreeing, believe it or not. You obviously know your council's position on the subject (since you used it as a reference). But oldsm is asking our opinion on this topic and while information is valuable, "free advice is worth what you pay for it". I have learned from this forum (and Scouts-L) that different districts and councils have different ways of doing things. I have learned that the pickiest things can cause a scout difficulty - ref the long thread on "six months" before advancing and how even ONE DAY can cause a scout somewhere enormous headaches. How, on the other end of the spectrum, any old warm body can be a MB counselor in some councils.

 

So all I'm saying is that a call (or a discussion at RT), armed with the opinions gathered here, would clarify this situation for oldsm in his specific situation. Might even be helpful for us to here about the result of such a call...

 

Vicki

[Trevorum]

Point taken. You're right.