declining to sit on a BOR

[Lisabob]

Have any of you ever done this?

 

We have a couple of scouts coming up for advancement that I personally would have a very hard time agreeing to advance, based on their behavior over the last few months (both toward other younger/smaller boys and issues regarding honesty, responsibility, leadership). This is for ranks beyond 1st Cl. Since they're up for a BOR the SM obviously signed off on the scout spirit and POR requirements. Maybe he knows some things I don't about the boys and their personal growth? But I admit I don't see it. Maybe I would if I sat on their BOR and talked with them about it, but I'm not so sure. What's the more honorable course of action here - bow out and allow others to (probably) promote him at the BOR, or sit on the BOR with as open a mind as possible, but also raise these concerns with the other BOR members? Is it appropriate to ask the SM to share with the BOR - with or without the scouts present - his reasons for putting these boys up for promotion at this time?

 

Please understand, I'm not "out to get" anybody and don't particularly want to set up a confrontation w/ the SM over advancement. But I would appreciate your feedback on this because I'm uncomfortable with all options that I see.

 

Lisa'bob

[OldGreyEagle]

Hanging back and not sitting on the BOR is sort of like abstaining. You can also say you werent part of the team that "advanced" the boys but then again you didnt do anything to address the situation either.

 

If you have serious questions about the fitness of the scout(s) then by all means talk to the scoutmaster. His perspective may be different or he may be unaware of what you have seen. Ignoring the problem should be the last option

[SemperParatus]

That is a very good question.

 

I'll admit that as a SM and a CC, I hate surprises at BORs. A 'failure' at a BOR is pretty much unacceptable to me, and when it does occur, it is too often due to a failure of the BOR to carry out their responsibilities in a manner that is in the best interests of the boy. I have seen adults with an axe to grind over something a boy did months earlier, use the BOR as a soapbox and a means to mete out their twisted sense of discipline. Certainly, a boy needs to be able to demonstrate and explain his scout spirit, but the time alloted in a BOR does not support extended conversations about specific actions that need to be addressed. I get the sense from your post that you have a number of concerns that would require significant discussions before you would gain a level of comfort.

 

You seem to be a very reasonable person and dedicated scouter, but it sounds like you are predisposed not to award rank, and so may not be walking into the room with a completely open mind. If the SM signed off on scout spirit, then you should probably address your concerns with him directly.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would not sit on the BOR.

[scoutldr]

One of the primary duties of the Troop Committee is to conduct all BOR. Not just the ones you're comfortable with. If the SM has indeed signed off that the requirements, including Scout Spirit, have been met, then the BOR needs to happen, even if the outcome is not positive. If the BOR is withheld, the Scout has grounds to appeal to the District Advancement Committee. After the BOR is held, by all means, the Committee Chairman needs to have a chat with the SM about his quality standards.

[jr56]

Having an honest discussion with these young men can help them mature and gain insight into their character. Isn't that what scouting is all about?

[ScoutNut]

Instead of waiting for the BOR to happen, & setting the boys up for failure, why not have a talk with the SM NOW. Find out his thoughts on the situation, why he signed them off on Scout Spirit, & let him know how you feel.

 

It is entirely possible he discussed behaviour issues with these scouts at their SM conferences & was pleased with the responses. Hitting the boys & the other BOR members with this at the BOR is not right.

[Beavah]

Yah, no surprises at a BOR, eh?

 

You need to talk to the CC or Advancement Chair about your concerns, so that they can have a conversation with the SM if they think it's appropriate. Or you can have an informal conversation with the SM if you have a good friendly working relationship.

 

But the BOR is not the place for an adult to grind an axe. You don't have the kind of deeper, long-term relationship with the boy that's needed for him to learn this kind of lesson from you. The SM does, and the SM by virtue of that also may have all kinds of information you're not privy to... like what's goin' on for the kid at home and school, or how far he's progressed from earlier behaviors, or the fact his peers already had a "sit down" with him at a PLC meeting to address an issue.

 

The only time a BOR should defer a boy over Scout Spirit or Leadership issues is when they get a wink and a nudge from the SM who wants them to play the "heavy" (or when the boy mouths off to the Board during the review;) ). Yeh gotta trust the people closest to da action.

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

There is a reason SMs and ASMs are not supposed to sit on BORs, they are too close to the action so to speak. The BOR is not supposed to be a rehash but a quality control to see that all requirements have been met.

Lisabob, what do you see as your responsibility as a member of the BOR? Are you too close to the action to be impartial as to whether the requirements have been met? You say; I personally would have a very hard time agreeing to advance, based on their behavior over the last few months (both toward other younger/smaller boys and issues regarding honesty, responsibility, leadership). You apparently witnessed this behavior when it happened, what did you do at the time? If you handled the incident then it has been dealt with and should not be used against the boy at the BOR. If you sat on the board and declined to advance this scout what would be his method of correcting the deficiency you see in him? How could he correct the problem? Shouldnt this have been the outcome of the original incident? Your dissatisfaction seems to be with the SM and how the SM is delivering program. What the standards are that the SM is setting. Is the BOR the place to deal with this issue?

LongHaul

[msnowman]

Lisabob - I'd probably simply decline to sit on the BOR and let someone else take my place. There are 2 boys in Nephew's troop that I actively dislike, don't allow him to invite over, etc. There is no way I could possibly be impartial and open minded for a BOR for these specific boys as I simply dislike them. I feel declining to sit on their BOR would be the far more honorable thing to do. However - you don't sound like you dislike the youth in question, so maybe you would have an easier time being open minded towards them.

 

I think asking yourself this question before going in to panel a BOR is definately shows you want to make sure the boy is treated fairly by everybody.

 

Good luck

YiS

Michelle

 

 

[mk9750]

Lisa,

 

I've been with our Troop for almost 12 years now. In that time, we've delayed advancement for only one boy, and it was based on the boy either not being able to, or refusing (I still don't know which) to describe some of the ways he has demonstrated Scout Spirit. But as the Advancement Chairman, if I knew an adult could not be open minded, I'd ask them to excuse themselves from the Board. However, if anyone has serious issues with a Scout's standing, but could be open minded enough to listen to the Scout's answers and be fair with his vote, I would hope that person would participate in the BoR.

 

One other time, an 18 year old Eagle candidate was turned down at the BoR. I was involved in investigating the facts of this ugly case, and because I did, I had already made up my mind to vote no if asked to serve on his BoR, so I spoke with the District Advancement Chair, filled him in on the details as I knew them, and asked to be excluded from the BoR. I helped the DAC recruit people for this Board that were not familiar with the issue, and with an impartial panel, the boy was turned down. I felt good about me doing my best to provide the boy a fair Board. I also feel good that those who did serve followed their convictions rather than doing the "easy" thing.

 

When faced with a decision like yours, one of my guiding principles is the line: "All that is neceasry for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I realize that "evil" might not be accurate. But you get the drift. If we stand idly by and let others do wrong, we are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

Best of luck to you. I know it's not easy sometimes.

 

Mark

[Eagledad]

>>You need to talk to the CC or Advancement Chair about your concerns, so that they can have a conversation with the SM if they think it's appropriate. Or you can have an informal conversation with the SM if you have a good friendly working relationship.

[Venividi]

Lisabob,

 

Lots of input here, with good reasons and rational both for and against sitting on the BOR.

 

Some have proposed that the SM is closer to the situation and to the scouts than you, and therefore has information with respect to scout spirit that you do not. That is very well true. I will toss out that it is also possible that the SM is not comfortable saying "I'm sorry, you are not yet ready to advance. Here are the things you need to work on to fulfill the scout spirit requirement".

 

I know that the first couple of conferences that I had with scouts that I had doubts about were hard, and I approved them, but did not feel good about it. As a new SM, the advice that I received from the troop's Advancement Chair was on the order of "sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and advance scouts that you don't think deserve it." And so I did. I found that doing so did not help the scout. In fact, it hurt him, because there was no motivation for him to modify his behaviour - his goal was to advance, and he got what he wanted.

 

So as others have recommended, consult with SM to discuss your concerns and find out if the SM knows something that you are not aware of.

 

I agree with others that people with axes to grind or cannot be impartial should not serve on a BOR. Based on reading your posts, I don't see that with you. If you elect not to sit on the BOR, provide your concerns to those that do, so they can make a knowledgeable decision.

 

 

Good Luck

 

 

[evmori]

Lisabob,

 

What about their behavior is troubling?

 

Like someone posted, not sitting on the BOR isn't the way to solve the problem. If they don't pass, they don't pass.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

Thanks for all the input so far, it is helpful. I will seek out a friendly bit of input from the SM as several of you have suggested. Hopefully that'll go well - it isn't really my intent to second guess him but I admit I don't yet see whatever he might have seen to justify these advancements at this time. Maybe he'll be able to help me see that. Just to respond to some things a couple of people asked/mentioned:

 

Scoutldr, there's no question of refusing to hold a BOR. We have a large and active committee so they could have a BOR without me, if I were to sit this one out.

 

Ed asked about what kind of behavior and a couple of people said something to the effect that a boy shouldn't be punished at BOR for something that happened way back and has been dealt with already. Here's part of what makes me uncomfortable with these boys I guess. Their behavior is recent and well known among both scouts and adults, but the consequences (to the extent that there are or have been any) are not known. I am concerned that the message we'd send, both to the boys in question and to the rest of the troop, is that it doesn't matter how you behave, you get your advancement anyway. And I fear that any open and honest discussion about such would lead to a situation where I'd be the hold-out on the BOR, thus causing other problems. Still, I'm not sure what "remedy" I would propose either. Never been in this situation before as a potential BOR member and I want to really think it through before it happens.

 

In one of the two cases in question, the behavior that I find troubling is on-going, low-level (just under the radar most of the time) bullying. Actually I find this more difficult to know how to respond to as a BOR member than in the other boy's case, where the behavior was more obvious and therefore more easily addressed. In this first case, the boy is big for his age and has a history of picking out younger/smaller victims. He's done it to lots of kids. My own included. I know that he has been spoken to about this several times but what appears to happen is he stops for a short period and then slowly ramps it up again until the next time he gets talked to. I'm not sure when the last time he was talked to was though. So I have reservations about his "scout spirit" in a big way. Also, his POR is as a den chief in a den where his dad is the DL/CM and his little brother is a cub scout. I know this "counts" but honestly I've not seen this boy provide any kind of leadership in the troop and I am a little skeptical about the nature of his leadership as den chief, given the circumstances. In fact he is often one of the boys in the troop who needs to be closely watched. He's not a boy the other scouts look up to - most of them avoid him. To go one step further, troop policy is that boys above 1st cl. rank can sign off on requirements (except SM conf. and scout spirit) for lower ranks. I'm downright queasy about handing him that responsibility and power.

 

All of that said, he's a nice kid in many ways, has a good sense of humor, and I realize that teenage boys are works in progress (aren't we all). And maybe my expectations are off base? But I don't see him as a role model for the troop in any sense and I do expect the boys with higher ranks to begin to act as role models.

 

So: bite my tongue and trust the SM (which would mean, for me, not sitting on these BORs because I couldn't bite my tongue hard enough if I was involved in the decision)? Or sit on the BORs with as open a mind as possible even though I'm skeptical at the moment?

 

Lisa'bob

[evmori]

Doing nothing is endorsing his behavior. Ask questions at his BOR that deal with points of the Scout Law. Ask questions about his leadership as a Den Chief. Ask questions about what he does out of school. If the answers cut the mustard, then you have no choice but to pass him. If they don't cut the mustard, don't agree to pass him.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10