Cheating to make Eagle Scout!

[eagle_scout98]

You know, everything in this forums leads me to this conclusion: the best way to overcome any of this is to run the program correctly.

Not the way someone interprets it (ie adding their own requirements, deciding to ignore others, etc) but the way it is put out.

This also means having quality, TRAINED leaders. How many of the leaders in this case took the necessary training to do their job right?

If there are major issues with one Troop on not doing things right, form a new Troop and run it the right way.

My question is what are you doing to correct it?

unless otherwise referenced, all items written are of my OPINION and should be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you don't happen to agree. 

- eagle_scout98 -

[backwood]

Several of us have actually talked about starting a second troop. But if you think about it, Those who care so little about the high honor that goes with earning the rank of Eagle Scout win. They would continue to turn out 100 % Eagle Scouts and the new troops boys would be discriminated aginst by being forced to follow the standards already in place. Some of them would not be Eagle scouts when they turn 18. As for what I have done about it. I have tried to stop our scoutmaster from back dating a leadership position for a second scout in this troop who has not held one. Guess what? I lost that battle also. The committee voted no, The unit chairman voided that meeting and no vote and held a new one. So at least in our troop Eagle Scouts only need leadership positions on paper. The scout master and chairman will grant it. The council will not get involved. They say one thing and do not back it up when it is not followed.

[MollieDuke]

Having just begun some special work in a local high school, I will tell you that this is NOT unique to Scouting. I see parents every week in my office wanting me to change a kids' grade or get them on "X" team or pull strings to make them look better than they are on paper. I have adjusted my strategies overall when I work with these kids to include not only honesty, but honesty with themselves. If they are not an athlete, it's OK. If they make a C and it's deserved, it's OK. Learn from it. Kids often learn more from their failures than the successes.

 

That said, I will also add that my daughter is in college. Taking a class where leadership was stressed, she caught several students lying, cheating and in two cases actually stealing to raise their grades. These students also kept other students from getting leadership chances due to the lying and cheating. When my daughter found out that not only did the professor know of this behavior, but was encouraging it, she dropped the class. She went to his office and basically told him that if that was his idea of leadership, he was really nuts and handed him a drop slip. I was so proud of her decision to go voice her concerns and stand up for her beliefs.

 

What I guess I'm trying to show is that we're raising a generation of whiners who've been "handed" quite a lot. When they don't get it honestly, they are prompted usually through adult behaviors to cheat to gain that which they are told to value.

 

In this particular case, I doubt if it is a case of the youth gaining Eagle as it is the DAD wanting to say that as a SM, he had an Eagle son. I'd bet if you'd ask this youth (and get an honest answer), he never wanted all this in the first place.

[Gonzo1]

There's something as bad as cheating to make Eagle, that's claiming to be an Eagle when you're not.

 

I just met a guy maybe 35 years old who just seemd to be an Eagle Scout, we talked about scout stuff and enjoyed a few laughs. A couple days later, the same guy said he had something to admit to me. I said "Don't tell me you're not an Eagle" and he agreed, he wasn't and had only his project remining to do as a boy. He never finished. I was immediately disappointed because he lied. If he had said that he had been a Life Scout, it wouldn't be an issue.

 

I admit, when I shake a scouter's hand, I look for the knot. I look for the 'brother'.

[Herms]

Very sad.

 

I keep one of my old Eagle patches with me and use it during Scoutmaster conferences. I ask the boy "Does he want to be an Eagle?". Of course he says yes, so I flip him the patch and say "Ok your an Eagle, go ahead and sew it on." Without exception they always give it back. I ask why didn't they take it. They almost always respond "Because I didn't earn it". You can take that time to point out to them that it is just a piece of cloth with some fancy, pretty thread. You go on to tell them that it patch REPRESENTS the skills, knowledge and fun they have had in Scouts and without that it is just a piece of cloth.

[backwood]

Everyone seems to agree that this is not a good practice, What I did find out is that there is nothing anyone will do about it if the Scout Master signs it. we had another Eagle this week. No active leadership role, and that fact had been pointed out to him 6 months ago and he still was not active. The Scout Master continued to advance him and the paper work was processed. I talked to National and if the paperwork is in order they will not do anything about the cheating.

[Gonzo1]

What ahs the SM said about it? Have you confronted him? How about the Committe Chairman, Chartered Organization Rep and District and Cnouncil advancement folks? I see you've mentioned it to district folks, too bad they don't care. Perhaps you could volunteer to be on that committee and help keep the program solid.

 

Perhaps you could find some "real" Eagles to be ASM's, CC, SM, etc to uphold the integrity of the program.

(This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

[backwood]

The committee Chairman has the next son who has lost interest and is being blackmailed into staying in scouts. He will not be getting his drivers licence signed until he completes his service project. As for the charter org. they are in name only. they know nothing and only pay the charter fee every few years if pressed for it. Beleive me I tried everything to bring the high honor back to this troop. Our scoutmaster will not work with anyone. He advances the scouts no matter what the committee has to say. We vote one way and he does his own thing anyway. We have unactive committee members who come when he wants them to vote for him. They out number the members who know what is going on.

[Lisabob]

backwoods, if that's the way things are then you have three choices:

 

1. Leave the troop and either find another one that runs a better program (preferred) or start one.

 

2. Get yourself onto some of these BORs and vote NO if the boy truly has not met the requirements - but this is going to be a contentious plan of action and may not be worth it.

 

3. Sit back and wait for this SM to step down, or perhaps actively seek someone to replace him.

 

Sometimes the latter option makes sense, for example if you know he will be stepping down in the foreseeable future anyway. On the other hand if he's been SM for twenty years and this is 'his' troop or something like that, then this option is probably just an exercise in frustration on your part because the only way he'll leave it to be pushed, hard.

 

Sorry to hear about your situation.

 

 

[backwood]

I was on one of those Eagle board of reveiws, I did vote no, The Eagle board of reveiw was nullified and all but 3 members were then allowed to remain for the vote. The Chairman chose the remaining members. I was at this past weeks committee meeting and we voted not to allow the paper work to be submitted. the Chairman nullified that meeting brought in the absentee committee members and out numbered us.

As for starting a new troop. Why would you want your son to be a part of a troop that only has a percentage making Eagle when the one next door has 100%?

The scoutmaster has only been there 3 years. He has 2 more sons so he needs to stay to make them Eagles as well.

 

[Gonzo1]

It's too bad the system isn't working for you.

Around here, EBOR is conducted at the District level, not the troop level. That way, no one on the EBOR know the candidate. HE must answer the questions.

 

In the end, the 'paper Eagles' will know too.

 

[Lisabob]

backwoods, I am truly sorry to hear that things are that bad in your troop. All troops have their strengths and weaknesses, ups and downs, but it does sound like you are in with a disfunctional crowd.

 

You wrote: "As for starting a new troop. Why would you want your son to be a part of a troop that only has a percentage making Eagle when the one next door has 100%? "

 

My answer: because as a parent who understands at least a thing or two about the purpose of the program, I don't want my son in an Eagle mill - I want him in a troop that follows the BSA program at least a little bit better than the one you describe.

 

Starting a troop is an enormous undertaking and there are many good reasons not to do it. I'm not saying you are necessarily the right person to do it, or that this is necessarily the right time for you to do it either. These are things that can't be determined on a message board. But if you were to take this option, you might be surprised at how many other people would reach the same conclusion as I would - choice between two troops - one is 100% Eagle but has a lot of problems and doesn't deliver on the promise of the program - the other is smaller, newer, maybe needs more help, might only have a small % of Eagles or might not have any Eagles at all yet, but provides the boys with genuine opportunities in keeping with the program - hmm, I choose the 2nd every time. Especially if the troop has a fun program that draws the boys in and helps "hook" them on scouting with lots of age-appropriate adventures.

 

As for voting in committee not to authorize turning in paperwork, etc., I'm again sorry to say but that isn't going to get you the desired results. Packing the committee is easy, as you've discovered. More important, no matter how much we might like it to be otherwise, troops are not required to be democracies. If you are not in a powerful position (CC or SM or COR) and you don't have the ear or respect of those who are, you're not going to effect change against the will of the CC and SM no matter how you vote.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Backwood,

 

Before the sun sets again, contact your District Advancement Chairman. From some of the things you have described in your posts, all your Troop is doing is GUARANTEEING the National Advancement Committee will over-ride your decisions on appeal.

 

If you truly think this young man is not worthy of Eagle, he's the man to see.

 

Listen to Lisabob, Beavah, and Eamonn here. They have sage advice!

[backwood]

the district advancement Chair nullified the Eagle board of reveiw because members were voting no. The candidates are 18 and he knew the enformation during the discussions that an appeal would fail. Documentation in the troop records show no leadership positions during Life rank and meeting minutes detail the committee decisions and the scoutmaster not abiding by them. I even contacted the council president, he is sorry and will talk to those involved but once an Eagle is awarded there is no taking it back and that is why nullifing meeting ejecting members for voting no and reconeving was the option taken.