Conflict of Interest

[Beavah]

the Scoutmaster is responsible for advancement. It would be irresponsible of him to let the boy go off on his own and make the wrong choices...Not all scouts are able to discern a timeline for their advancement... that's up to the SM to keep on target with....the Scout is not responsible for his own advancement, he is guided by an adult who is ultimately responsible.

 

Urp. Yah. One vote here for "I disagree."

 

It would be irresponsible for an adult to let a boy go off and make the wrong choices about, say, driving while intoxicated. But da whole point of scouting is to provide an environment where a boy can go off on his own and make choices - right and wrong - that are his own, and learn from them, in an environment where the consequences are significant but small. Earning or not earning a patch is a small consequence. Advancement is a tool, a method. It is not a goal.

 

The boy, not the adult, should be "ultimately responsible" for his own advancement. To do anything else is doing him a disservice.

 

So, it all depends on what freedoms you allow the scouts... is it total or is it guided freedom?

 

It should be freedom with (adult) friendship. The guidance comes in how to do things, ethics in action, how to communicate as a leader, etc. Not in creating advancement timelines.

 

Advancement is a method, not a goal. Advancement is a method, not a goal. Advancement is a method, not a goal....

 

 

[ScoutNut]

"the Scoutmaster is responsible for advancement. It would be irresponsible of him to let the boy go off on his own and make the wrong choices...Not all scouts are able to discern a timeline for their advancement... that's up to the SM to keep on target with....the Scout is not responsible for his own advancement, he is guided by an adult who is ultimately responsible."

 

I also strongly disagree.

 

A Scout is most definitely the one ultimately responsible for his own advancement, no one else. You state you want a boy-led Troop, but you refuse to let the boys lead even themselves. If a boy fails to make a rank, & years later blames only other people instead of himself, then his SM has failed him in a much more fundamental way than advancement.

 

The primary role of the SM is to train the boys to be leaders, to guide & help them create their program & run their own Troop. The SM's purpose is NOT to hand pick which Merit Badges each boy earns.

 

Making choices, both right & wrong, learning from them & growing, is what the BSA program is about. As has been stated, advancement is only 1 of 8, equally important, methods that we use.

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[Dozy]

Well, in this I guess we'll agree to disagree.

BSA "Advancement Committee Guide" Policies and Procedures, page 25:

Troop Advancement Goals. The Scoutmaster must be in charge of advancement in the troop.... It is important that the TC and the SM set an advancement goal for the year. By doing so, Scouts become net contributors to the troop and are able to care for themselves and others.

I guess this is left up to interpretation. I cannot find anywhere in the book where the MB choices and timeline is left up to the scout. I'll be inclined to submit if I had it in print.

SM guided advancement does not take away from a "boy led" troop. MB's and Rank Advancement are for skill learning and exploring possibilities. POR's are for leadership.

 

Page 23. The Boy Scout advancement program is subtle. It places a series of challenges in front of a Scout in a manner that is fun and educational. As Scouts meet these challenges, they achieve the aims of Boy Scouting.

 

The Scout advances and grows in the Boy Scout phase of the program in the same way a plant grows by receiving nourishment in the right environment. The job of adults concerned with advancement is to provide the right environment.

 

Me thinks advancement is a goal. The MB is a method.

Me thinks advancement is a goal. The MB is a method.

Me thinks advancement is a goal. The MB is a method.

 

Making choices, both right & wrong, learning from them & growing, is what the BSA program is about.

 

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

MB choice has nothing to do with ethical and moral choices. It has to do with advancement. Under the MB program the scout is gaining self-confidence, overcoming obstacles, learning career skills, social development, learning physical skills, perhaps hobbies for life.

 

Adding service to the RA program is another method to achieve the goal. Although the goal IS advancement, as each method is carried out, the boy learns and implements a myriad of skills.

 

The ethical and moral part comes with learning how to be a good follower, a team player and then a team leader, plus somewhere in there, learning how not to follow a bad leader, learning how to trust in his own judgement. But this is done through mentoring, not on his own.

 

Troop Program Features, Vol II, page 6. As SM you serve as the "advance" person.... Review the advancement status of each scout. Look carefully for basic skills needed by your Scouts and also for key merit badges that should be introduced... List some goals for the Troop. Page 7. Meet with TC to review the calendar and potential troop goals... (paraphrase) Present these goals to the junior leaders of the troop for implementation.

 

Looks to me like there's plenty of adult involvement in a "boy-led" troop. It just should be done the RIGHT way... the BSA way.(This message has been edited by Dozy)

[evmori]

the Scoutmaster is responsible for advancement. It would be irresponsible of him to let the boy go off on his own and make the wrong choices...Not all scouts are able to discern a timeline for their advancement... that's up to the SM to keep on target with....the Scout is not responsible for his own advancement, he is guided by an adult who is ultimately responsible.

 

Ahhh no. A Scout is responsible for his advancement. After all, he is the one who is advancing, not the SM or the ASM or the AC or the CC. The Scout.

 

Maybe, Dozy, it's time to get out of the books & into the Troop. Work with the Scouts. Teach them & learn from them. Common sense is a must!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Dozy]

Maybe, Dozy, it's time to get out of the books & into the Troop. Work with the Scouts. Teach them & learn from them. Common sense is a must! "

 

Then you disagree with the BSA? Or do you know better than the BSA?

 

Come on, do you have another avenue besides: let's attack Dozy because she quotes from BSA guidelines!

 

Sorry, that doesn't cut it! Is that the only way people justify themselves... they know better? and Shoot the messenger?

 

Why bother with training? Why bother with books? Lets do a Chinese menu. We'll make up our own rules, but when we disagree, we'll see what the book says. Hey, that's my Troop Committee.

 

And you're clearly trying to tell me that I don't have any common sense? Is that a personal attack?

(This message has been edited by Dozy)

[Lisabob]

"Why bother with training? Why bother with books? Lets do a Chinese menu. We'll make up our own rules, but when we disagree, we'll see what the book says. Hey, that's my Troop Committee. "

 

Dozy, I have to say that this is really not what people here are suggesting. Sometimes it becomes difficult to decipher intent via the internet, but I'm pretty sure on this one.

 

When people have told you that advancement is a method, what they're referring to is what is known as the "aims and methods of scouting." You can find these listed in practically every troop level training guide, including the troop committee guidebook (pp. 3-4). It is also available at the BSA's website, scouting.org, here:

 

http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-503.html (scroll down a little ways and you'll see it)

 

The "aims and methods" form the backbone of the troop program and as such, they are rightfully a frequent check point for many unit leaders.

 

Also, it is my understanding of the program as well - from training that I have attended, both as committee member and as a MB counselor - that the boys, not the SM, are ultimately responsible for choosing their own advancement path. If they choose to work on "fun" mbs instead of "Eagle required" mbs, so be it. The SM should be providing guidance in their MB choices, but not telling boys "no" unless there's a serious safety concern of some sort - and that would be a rare thing.

 

Generally speaking, I've found that people on this board are unbelievably helpful and giving of their time, experience, and knowledge. But if you ask for input or feedback, you also need to be open to receiving it. Sometimes that feedback may cause you to rethink your understanding. If you don't want to do that, by all means, don't, but then why ask ? As some pretty smart people have told me on occasion, feedback is a gift - please receive it as such.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

 

[jimswainbbmc]

From the BSHB, 11th edition, 1998:

You may pass any of the requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and Fiest Class at any time. For example, if you fulfill a First Class requirement before you are a Second Class Scout, you may check off the First Class requirement as completed. Though you can advance at your own pace, active Scouts will usually earn First Class within a year of joining a troop.

 

Seems to me this puts the responsibility firmly in the hands of the Scout. The SM and other adults are there to provide guidance and support, as is addressed a few lines below:

 

The merit badge program provides you the opportunity to meet and work with adult leaders in your community.

 

Sometimes we need to look at the program from the boy's standpoint. The BSHB is the standard they go by. I often find myself making it a reference as well, because it helps me see what the boys expect.

(This message has been edited by jimswainbbmc) As far as the SM being in charge of advancement, the SM is responsible for the troop's advancement GOAL, which is relevant to analyzing the health of the troop. The SM does NOT choose MBs or set timelines for Scouts to advance. These activities are done by the Scout within BSA guidelines, i.e. having to be First Class for four months prior to becoming Star Scout.(This message has been edited by jimswainbbmc)

[BrentAllen]

I doubt this is written in any BSA manual or handbook, but the general consensus I have found could be summed up as follows:

 

It is the SM's responsibility to get the Scouts to First Class. It is the Scout's responsibility to reach Eagle.

 

That being said, the SM is not supposed to pick the MB's and order the Scout to complete rank advancement in certain steps. Rather, the SM should create an atmosphere where the Scout will have the opportunity to advance, and the SM should try to keep the Scout from straying too far from the advancement path.

 

By saying the SM is responsible for advancement, I understand that to mean if none of the boys in the Troop are advancing, the SM is the one who should be held responsible - he is not creating that environment conducive for advancement.

[evmori]

No one is being attacked! I am not saying disregard BSA policy! What I was trying to say was the Scouts in your Troop are more important than the gazillion pages of policy the BSA has.

 

Geesh!

 

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I have to agree that it is not the role of the SM or the Advancement Coordinator to refuse to allow a boy to pursue a MB in which he is interested, just because it doesn't fit into the SM's advancement plan. However, when things are working well, boys are willing to listen to and take advice from adult leaders on what MBs to pursue. They are willing to do this because (a) they know the adult leaders have their best interests in mind and (b) they think the adult leaders know what they are talking about. In my son's troop, for example, adult leaders always sit down with each boy before summer camp to talk about what MBs he is planning to take--we always urge new boys to take Swimming (because it's hard to arrange outside of camp), but we don't make them take it.

There may also be times when MBCs with the troop will offer particular MBs during a set period--often boys will gladly sign up. I see nothing wrong with this, but it's not the same as requiring the boys to take the MB.

Occasionally there is a boy who is not interested in advancement. I don't consider such a boy a failure as a Scout, if he is getting something else out of the program, and if he wants to do a couple of merit badges along the way, why would I interfere?

[Beavah]

Yah, Dozy. I think we all understand that you're upset by the current state of affairs in your troop, eh? But don't shoot the messengers.

 

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The BSA training syllabus (NLE/Troop specific) gives someone at best a cursory overview of the Boy Scout program. Understanding it takes years of practice and experience; appreciating its flexibility and the variety of successful troops takes years more. And we're all still learnin'.

 

You tell us that you are the only one trained in your unit, but then you also tell us that the former District Commissioner is on the committee? I think you have to be open to the notion that maybe, perhaps, that DC with years of experience (and training that you've never seen) might possibly understand the program more than you think... or perhaps more than you can judge at this point in your own learning. One year and SM basic isn't enough to really be quotin' things at the many people who have lots more training and experience runnin' successful units.

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Dozy, I appreciate that you are passionate about Scouting. It is also a good thing that you support your SM hubby. And, I think we all realize how frustrated you are by your current Troops Committee.

 

However, you need to lighten up a bit. No one here is attacking you, or the BSA. No one here is saying that they know more than the BSA. No one here is saying to ignore BSA or its training. As a matter of fact, there are many Woodbadge trained folks on these forums.

 

What we ARE trying to tell you is that training does NOT make you perfect. None of us, including you & your SM, are perfect. We are all just trying to follow the BSA program as best as we know how & learning new things as we go.

 

A SM sets goals (including advancement) for the Troop as a WHOLE. NOT for individual scouts. A SM guides, NOT mandates. Yes, advancement & MBs CAN affect how boy-led a Troop is. Every time a SM, or any other Troop adult, takes a decision away from a scout and/or the PLC (Patrol Leader Council), & makes it FOR them, it takes away from the BOY-led aspect of the Troop.

 

A SM should never tell a PLC what activities they should or should not do. A SM should NOT do their planning FOR them. An example - If a Troop has a lot of new Scouts, the SM might encourage the PLC to include an activity on knots (which are needed for advancement) in some of their upcoming program activities. The SM might suggest the PLC consider something that will help older scouts to brush up on their skills while helping to teach the knots to the new scouts. The SM might even suggest an activity like a pioneering theme & offer to provide all of the materials. However, it is up to the PLC to decide exactly what they want to do.

 

A SM is supposed to make sure that the boys in the Troop have the tools & the opportunities they need to advance. He is NOT supposed to make their decisions for them. Another example The SM determines that there are a number of boys who need to earn the First Aid Merit Badge. What he does NOT do is to tell these boys that they are NOT allowed to earn any other MB (even ones they are really fired up about earning) until they earn First Aid. Instead, he might let the PLC know of the need for the MB, ask the PLC to consider having a MB Counselor come & do a presentation to the Troop, giving the boys who need the MB an opportunity to sign up with the MBC to earn the badge. Then it is up to the PLC to decide if they want to include the MBC in a Troop meeting & up to the boys if they want to take advantage of the opportunity offered to them. They should NOT be FORCED.

 

You say that you are only quoting the BSA rules & guidelines, and that it is the BSA Way that boys are NOT responsible for their own MB choices & advancement timetable. Well, I do not have any of the BSA books with me here at work, but how about a couple of quotes from a BSA Supplemental Training Module Orientation for New Boy Scout Parents, found on the BSA National Website

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-110/index.html

 

You may recall that the Scouting program has three aims or purposes: character development, citizenship training, and physical and mental fitness. What makes Boy Scouting unique is that it has eight methods it uses to achieve those aims. Those eight methods define Boy Scouting and show how it is different from other programs.

 

It goes on to describe the 8 Methods of Scouting. The one you might be interested in is

 

AdvancementBoy Scouting has a system of ranks in which Scouts learn progressively more difficult skills and take on progressively greater responsibilities. The highest of these ranks is Eagle Scout. Becoming an Eagle Scout is an important achievement that your son can be proud of his entire life. But turning out Eagle Scouts is not what the Boy Scouting program is all about. Advancement is probably the most visible of the Boy Scouting methods, and the easiest to understand, but it is only one of eight methods. We strongly encourage advancement, but we never force itadvancement is the Scout's choice, and he sets his own pace. We don't do "lock-step" advancement. And many great Scouts, and great men, never became Eagle Scouts.

 

THAT, I think, best describes the BSA Way for advancement.

[Dozy]

I was resopnding to evmori. My more heated contentions were sent through private email.

 

I have not had a problem with anyone elses advice. I felt like I was being attacked and frankly, so did two other persons who read enmori's response. I know this person does not speak for anyone by him/herself.

 

Because there is a difference of interpretation of policy here on this subject (and some others), it's time to stop bickering and find out WHAT REALLY is correct. I will do so as I go UP THE LINE until I receive "Clarification of Policy". What we think does not matter, what matters is what IS (what BSA thinks).

 

I plan on being in Scouts for a very long time and I don't want to get it right 10 years from now.

 

My apologies and I bid everyone, a good life!

(This message has been edited by Dozy)

[sst3rd]

And a good life to you too, Dozy.

 

Your desire to always go up the ladder is amusing. The further up you go, the further away from the program you go.

You've been getting lot's of input from lots of folks. Some you don't agree with. Take what you will from these exchanges, and drop the rest. Your taking yourself too seriously. Breathe, please.............

Gee, your desire to follow the "book" is noble, but the Scouting program is so much more than that. It's people. Adults and youth. It's a team effort adult and youth leaders. Sounds like your adults don't want to work together, don't want to train the youth leaders, and really just don't want a Scout program. How long are you going to beat your head against the brick wall ????

Even if the adults get training or are already trained, they still need to work their responsibilities for the betterment of the Troop's program. It seems many of your adult leaders are in Scouting for the wrong reasons. They need to leave, be asked to leave, or if they won't, you need to leave. I don't see them changing.

 

I'd wish you luck, but it's really too late for that.

 

 

sst3rd

[evmori]

Excellent point about going up the ladder sst3rd!

 

I was in no way attacking you, Dozy. If you don't like the advice you are receiving then don't use it. Just remember, you asked.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10