Eagle denial

[turtleltl]

Eagle candidate coming up for BOR. No one has seen him at any Troop activity since 9/05. He has a record of never assisting any other Scout with Projects and has been involved in a number of fights with other Scouts. He was fired from camp as a Leading Scout for stealing. Not an nonorable scout. Can he be denied Eagle based on this?

[NeilLup]

With respect, how in the world did he make it to a Board of Review? Why was he not stopped at the Scoutmaster's Conference. If the SM believes that this young man does not meet the requirements for Scout Spirit, the SM can, at the SM Conference, so inform the Scout and lay out a course of action which the Scout would need to take to meet the standards for Scout Spirit. If the boy desires, he can then insist upon a Board of Review, but his chances would not be good.

 

A major principle in advancement is "no surprises." Was this Scout counselled many times that his behavior and performance were unacceptable? Was he told that he did not meet the standards for Scout Spirit. If the first time that he hears this is when he is preparing for the Eagle Board of Review, then he might well pass or might well appeal and have the appeal succeed.

 

Was he counselled about this problem in earlier advancement or did this all arise after he made Life Scout?

 

Just because he did not show up after 9/05 is not automatic grounds for non-approval. If he met the active membership requirement and the leadership requirement as a Life Scout, there is no requirement that the active membership and leadership be immediately before the BOR.

 

Your best approach is to have the Scout acknowledge that his performance has not met standard and agree to a program of improvement. Counting on the Board of Review to do the "dirty work" for the Troop, the SM and the Troop Committee can be rather inappropriate.

[NeilLup]

Check out the units of supplemental training at

 

www.scouting.org.

 

Go to Boy Scouting>>adult leadera>>training and support>>supplemental training

 

There is a unit on Scoutmaster's Conference and one on Board of Review.

[scoutldr]

Can he be denied? Yes.

 

Will he be? Who knows? And if he is, it could be overturned on appeal.

 

The Eagle application has several filters. First, he needs a SM conference, and the SM and CC must approve his Eagle application before it goes to Council. Then the BOR, which in my council is run by the unit committee with a District rep present, must review his record, including letters of recommendation. Based on what they know of the scout and see in his record, they vote. The vote to approve must be unanimous. If the SM and troop committee do not think the young man is worthy, then they should not schedule a BOR until they are satisfied he has become worthy.

 

I once sat on an Eagle board as the district rep. The young man who had just turned 18, had a baby out of wedlock and was "living in sin" with the girl under her parents' roof. This fact was revealed in a Letter of Reference the night of the BOR. The unit committee was livid that the SM and CC knew about it and didn't tell them before hand. They "didn't think it was relevant". The board vote was not unanimous and the Eagle was denied. He appealed to Council, another Board was held, and they gave it to him. Like I said, what appears to be a no-brainer, seldom is.

 

One of my deepest regrets about todays BSA is that the Eagle has been cheapened. 21 MB and a project and you're good to go. Nothing else seems to matter. It's come to be expected if you put your time in.

[dhendron]

In my opinion, not only can he be denied his Eagle, but if the facts are accurate, then he should be. The Eagle rank is not a gift. It is earned through dedication to Scouting and his ideals.

 

The SM is the first line of defense for preventing this kind of problem. Since it is beyond that point, the SM has a duty to appear before the BOR and give them the whole story. For my part as a SM, I would also include a recommendation against the rank. If the SM is not inclined to do that, the CC should. Concerned troop representatives and/or parents can also write to the BOR with their own recommendations.

 

Having said that, I also agree that Boy Scouts in general is not big on denying the Eagle rank to anyone persistent enough to push for it. The comment on the Eagle rank being cheapened by the apparent need of BSA to give them out regardless of qualification is a serious issue and will certainly take away from the rank.

[Eamonn]

While I agree whole heartedly with the Gentleman from Massachusetts

A couple of things cross my mind:

RE:No one has seen him at any Troop activity since 9/05.

I have to wonder why?

If he met all the requirements before 9/05. Not seeing him since is not grounds for denial.

RE:He has a record of never assisting any other Scout with Projects.

Again I wonder why?

If the projects are on a day that he might be working or involved with another activity? Of course he isn't going to be able to help.

RE:..been involved in a number of fights with other Scouts. He was fired from camp as a Leading Scout for stealing.

When?

I see the role that Adults play as doing what we can to help Scouts succeed.

Sure they have to meet the requirements.

But branding a Lad as "Not an Honorable scout. " doesn't help the Scout and does nothing to help build character.

I'm sorry if I come off sounding harsh?

Welcome to the forums.

Eamonn.

 

[scoutldr]

I have to disagree with dhendron. If the SM does not recommend the Scout for Eagle, the BOR never happens. Signing the boy's application, having an SM conference, scheduling a BOR, then appearing at the BOR to say he's not Eagle material doesn't make sense. When BOR night arrives, the SM has only one function...to introduce the Scout to the Board and, with the scout's permission, remain as an observer (keeping mouth shut).

 

I also have to agree with the others...the BOR is not the place and time to surprise the scout with the news that he has not met expectations. If that's the case, then the SM has not done his job. At the Life SM conference, the SM should lay out the expectations for the coming year, and then provide constant feedback.

[evmori]

You mean he is up for his Eagle BOR? How did he ever get this far? Who cares where he has been. He hasn't been active for the last nine months!

 

This Scout is not Eagle material.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[NeilLup]

I must disagree with Scoutldr. I believe that the advancement procedures (I don't have the book here) say that if the SM or CC refuse to to sign the Eagle application, the Scout can still insist upon a Board of Review. The board would, of course, want to know everything imaginable about why the SM/CC refused to sign.

 

 

This to keep the SM from blocking a boy's advancement and to ensure that a personality conflict between the SM and the Scout or a spat between the SM's family and the Scout's family does not permanently ruin a boy's Scouting experience.

 

Please check it out in the advancement rules and regulations book.

[scoutldr]

POint taken, Neil. But if the SM does not sign off on "SCout Spirit", then he has not met the requirements. You are correct, a BOR can occur any time without resulting in advancement. But these "progress checks" need to occur well in advance of his 18th birthday do he has time to rectify any deficiencies.

[Beavah]

The procedure is:

 

The SM refuses to sign the Eagle application (refuses to recommend the boy for a BOR), perhaps because he cannot sign Scout Spirit.

 

If the Boy appeals the SM's decision, it goes to the unit committee. The unit committee can overrule the SM and send the boy to a BOR with their recommendation. Note that this appeal is not the BOR itself, which has to be done by the district or with a district rep. If the unit committee decides in the SM's favor, the boy can appeal up the chain to the district/council/national (see below).

 

If the SM did sign the application and recommend the boy, then the unit committee (through its chair) can still refuse to sign and recommend the boy. The boy then has to appeal the lack of recommendation from his unit to the district (and on up).

 

In both cases, when an appeal hits the district, the district (or unit committee with district rep.) can still opt to hold an Eagle Board of Review if it desires, or it can just handle the appeal of the unit decision first without holding an EBOR. The norm in most areas is to hold an EBOR, but consider the non-recommendation by the unit leader(s) strongly as part of that process. The EBOR is allowed to consider, for example, that the SM did not recommend for some reason and investigate that.

 

Because most districts opt to hold an EBOR when there's a dispute, usually appeals to council/national are from that EBOR.

 

Long and short of it is that in the process, either the SM, the unit committee, or the EBOR can put on the brakes.

 

I'm with everyone else here, eh? Multiple fights with other scouts? Theft? No Loyalty to the troop and his peers in terms of helping out? This buck should have stopped with the SM.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Gee bevah, I would think the best course of action here is to support the scoutmaster, after all he is the one who best knows the scout and is the volunteer charged with the program

[John-in-KC]

Frankly, there's not enough information here to evaluate whether or not this Scout is Eagle material or not.

 

Neil's first response along with Beavah's response describe a process of action-reaction-counteraction. These graph the steps of the dance between the Scout, his leaders, and the District/Council advancement committee as he requests conferences, boards, and appeals.

 

Now, if the SM recommended the Scout, maybe the CC and advancement coordinator ought to go back and ask "why?"

[Hunt]

I think Eamonn puts his finger on why a question like this is hard to answer--we don't know the timeline of these various problems. If the "real" concern is that the boy hasn't been around since 9/05, that won't matter if he's fulfilled all the requirements. It's not unusual for a boy to do everything except his project, or maybe one merit badge, disappear, and then reappear to finish that last item. While it's far from ideal, I personally think it's better than not returning to finish.

[SaintCad]

"Gee bevah, I would think the best course of action here is to support the scoutmaster, after all he is the one who best knows the scout and is the volunteer charged with the program"

 

It seems to me that if there are protections in place to prevent a SM for unfairly holding a deserving scout back from getting Eagle, then it also works in reverse, i.e. checks to ensure that a SM is not too lenient in allowing a Scout that does not deserve it to become an Eagle. Otherwise, why have a BOR?