Changing Troops because of conflicts with SM or other leaders

[gwd-scouter]

Does changing troops and conflict among leaders/parents happen as often as it seems in some of the posts I've read?

 

Maybe I just don't see what's happening. I attend roundtables every month in our district, have done so for 14 years. I have worked closely with all the DEs, SMs, CMs and other leaders and I have heard of conflicts between parents and scoutmasters and other adult leaders from time-to-time, but never to the extent that I've read in this forum.

 

In the time I've been in Scouting, we have never had an adult leader removed from his/her position by the CO, District, or Council. Sure, we've had SMs and CMs step down, but to my knowlege it was because their son(s) had moved on and was no longer in their particular end of the program (Cubs/Boys).

 

I've never heard of a Scout in our area appealing a negative decision by his Troop to the District or Council or National.

 

We are in no way perfect in our District or Council, and maybe I'm just living in a fog, but, again, my question is, do these types of disputes happen often?

[Lisabob]

I don't think it is all that common. But when problems do happen, I think some people respond by seeking out as much information and different viewpoints and advice as they can find, from others who might've been there before them. (I'll be honest, that's how and why I found this forum!) And they're likely to end up here. So the sample of people we draw is probably not that representative of the average scout family's experiences. Anyway, that's my completely unscientific and undocumented take, based on nothing other than personal experience.

 

Lisa'bob

[clydesdale115]

I'm not living in a perfect district or council either. But from what I've observed locally, the CONFLICTS are there, but changing Packs or Troops is unusual. Indeed, it is sometimes used as a "threat" (maybe that's too strong a word), with no real intention of leaving.

 

"I'm getting so tired of so-and-so's decisions, little Johnny and I are thinking of changing Packs."

 

Eventually the heat dies down, cooler heads prevail, and little Johnny and parent stay put.

 

Even personally, husband and I have pondered if the grass was indeed greener on the other side. But even though it's a simple matter of paperwork, changing Packs seems like a HUGE decision, not one made lightly, especially as den leaders.

 

That said, we did have an entire den with DL from Pack XYZ just join our Pack. On-going conflict between the old guard and new guard in their Pack. So I guess their threats were more than idle - they voted with their feet.

 

clyde

[Beavah]

Not that frequent around here. Every now and then, usually just one or two families at a time, rather than a bunch. About half the time they find a happy home in the second unit (partly because they're a bit more circumspect about their yammerin'); about half the time they bounce again, and again.

 

I'd say almost all of the conflict, when it happens, comes from advancement issues. Usually parents lookin' for da fastest lane on da road to Eagle, tho once or twice an Eagledad movin' his kid out of a mill and into a handcrafted Eagle unit. The kids never really care, at their age, they just want to fit in and meet the expectations of their peers and their troop.

 

I can understand why the sentiment someone expressed of just handin' a boy an Eagle badge when he comes in, then invitin' him to stay and earn it if he wants. Some schools are givin' up on Valedictorian and Salutatorian for the same reason. Just too much conflict. Given a choice between teachin' your son to respect the other adults in his life and doin' what it takes to get your son what he (or the parent) wants, there are always some who choose the latter.

 

 

[acco40]

Within a five mile radius of where our troop meets there are at least 12 other Boy Scout Troops that I know of that are real strong. There are at least a handful more smaller troops (under 15 or so boys). Over ten percent of the boys in our troop came from other troops. Usually, the adults make that decision in tandem with their sons. It is not a case of districts, COs or others kicking them out but of individuals voting with their feet. Not all troops fit all Scouts. The good news is that there are so many troops in my area that one can find one that suits them with a little effort. However, most Webelos dens go en mass to one troop. The bad news is that from a troop perspective, we constantly are in "recruitment mode" due to the "competition." It really isn't that bad, it keeps us on our toes. But, the past few years we've had as many as 18 new boys join from the Webelos ranks and as few as three. Ideally, I'd like to see 8 (a patrol) each year.

[kittle]

I have to say that I am one of those that changed Packs because of the leadership. Actually, my son became a Lone Scout for 1 year until we were able to help get another Pack up and running. Sometimes it is the only solution. In our case, my son and I were neither one happy with the situation and he would have dropped out of Scouts if we hadn't done what we did.

[EagleInKY]

I see it happening quite a bit around here. Perhaps it's because we have lots of troops, many of them relatively small (10-20 boys). I've had three scouts (two of which were brothers) leave to go to other troops. Personally, I was happy on both occasions. It took boys and/or parents who were not satisfied with our program and allowed them to pursue scouting in another venue. I'd rather they do this than just quit.

 

I've also seen big exoduses when a group of parents band together against the SM. I've seen this happen several (around 5 or 6) times. In most cases, they've gone off and formed their own troop. In at least one case, they merged into a struggling troop and more or less took it over. IMHO, these cases have been caused primarily by adults putting their own interests in front of the scouts.

[Eamonn]

Having spent about 10 years as a key 3 member, I can say in our little district that is does happen, but it seems to happen without much fuss.

When OJ decided that he wanted to change Troops, because he felt (Yes him not me!!) that the Troop was just handing out Merit Badges and the outdoor program wasn't what he wanted, him and a pal looked at other Troops and transfered. The father of the other Lad who served as an ASM went with them.

As far as I know there wasn't any fuss and there wasn't any hard feelings.

I have had a few upset Cub Scout parents and Cub Scouter's change Packs because the Adults in the Pack can't play nicely with each other and one because there was a mix up at the Pine Wood Derby Race.

Looking from outside of the unit and trying to make sense of what at times makes no sense, it seems that most of the disgruntlement (Is there such a word??) involves money and how it is managed. Leaders who favor their Son over the other Scouts, either by what is seen as unfair advancing or appointing their kid to SPL.

A few years back there was a case of a little Lad who was being picked on and bullied by the other Scouts. The SE some how got involved in that one. His involvement only made things worse.

We have had one guy who was a real Twit kicked out by a CO (A volunteer Fire Company) He has spent his time since being an even bigger twit, trying to make all sorts of trouble where ever he can for both the VFC and the Council.

I have a Lad in the Ship who left his old Troop because his SM was adding requirements, so he joined the Ship and his little brother transfered to another Troop. His Mom is still active in Cub Scouting.

At the request of a CO I broke all the rules and informed a CM that his services were no longer needed (I had kept everyone informed and the SE said that if need be he would do the deed.)

But bad as this may sound, we have 42 units and I looking back over 10 -12 years.

I like to think that I'm a very nice fellow and that everyone likes me. But there are people who don't.They may not know that until they have been around me for a while.

Sadly most of the units where there are conflicts tend to be units where there are problems to start with or there are adults who have gone a little over board with the tweaks.

Eamonn

[firecrafter]

I came here looking for advise when things got ugly in out troop. Wish I'd found these forums sooner, might have saved us from changing troops.

 

Several familes broke off from one troop & started another because our CC ran our SM out on a rail. We disagreed with his choice of a new SM. CC told us the choice was entirely his. We had such misinformation at the time that no one questioned him.

 

It was the best thing we ever did! I might add that this was the second time the original troop had split, and that the CC & new SM ran the original troop into the ground. After over 30 years in our community that troop sadly no longer exists.

 

I think a lot of folks come here looking for objective advise on the difficulties in their group. I for one, am very grateful for the information and ideas I've gleaned here!

 

firecrafter

[Dozy]

I think a lot of folks come here looking for objective advise on the difficulties in their group.

That's about the size of it. I've been searching around these forums every now and again when I need some help with little things... but now I have a BIG issue which caused me to register as a member.

We have a situation of the "old guard" vs the "new guard" at the Troop Committee Level. In the beginning, the NG assumes that the OG is competent, capable, knows what the procedures are, etc.

Unfortunately, we've already had situations where Scouts where hurt (not physically) because proper procedure wasn't followed. This cased some of the NG to get books, get trained, and try to make changes. Yeah, like the OG wants to change the way they do things!

I'm an SM's wife, an Adult Leader and very active in our troop... It's small, about 15 boys (grown to 15 from five when the new SM took over a year ago).

Since then it has been one struggle after another.

My situationof the hour is:

A 13 year old Scout was denied advancement to Star. He is a slightly above average Scout, but not what you would call "top notch". He's a good kid, he has his moments, but he's not a bad kid, not disruptive, very helpful and is full of Scout Spirit.

He's done all of the requirements for Star and exceeded them. The SM put him up for Rank advancement. The Committee denied him.

I won't go into the reasons why except that it's a dislike situation with the Scout's mother. It's personal. They used reasons that can easily be disputed by the Scouts record.

We are in the process of filing an appeal with the District. As a matter of fact, I'm hand carrying it to the Disctrict Advance Chair tomorrow (Friday).

The appeal is coming from the SM, myself, his parents, and one of the Board of Review members.

We feel that this is a situation of abuse of power which led to the abuse of this boy (who is so upset he wants to quit scouting and summer camp which starts this Sunday).

Do you have any advice that I can follow so that this can be resolved in the boys favor?

I'd really appreciate it! Thanks. Dozy

 

[FScouter]

Registering an appeal through the district ought to be a last resort. Doing so is sure to create even more animosity in your unit. Decisions of a board of review must be unanimous, so why is one of the board members backing an appeal? Before you appeal, try following the process described in the Advancement Committee book #33088D.

 

Paraphrasing:

If the board decides that the Scout is not ready to advance, the candidate should be told exactly what he has not done satisfactorily. They must come to agreement with the Scout at the time of the board of review what he must do to correct his deficiencies, and follow up with a written letter. They must also schedule another review.

[EagleInKY]

Dozy - I guess we're hijacking this thread a bit, but the short answer is that your committee needs training on how to conduct BORs. If your characterization is acurate, and we have no reason to think that it's not, then they have made a serious mistake in how the process works. FScouter's advice is spot-on.

[Trevorum]

Concur. A BoR may not "fail" a scout or "deny" rank advancement. They may however identify one or more specific deficiences (which, presumably, escaped notice by the SM) which need correcting. Of so, the BoR may elect to adjourn to a later date, at which the candidate may present evidence of having fixed the specific issue.

[scoutingagain]

I would agree with EagleinKY and Fscouter and both have provided good advice on the process. However, while I acknowledge an appeal to the District should be a last resort, in addition to the information FScouter provided, the scout should also be told he does have the option to appeal the decision.

 

In most cases, if the BOR is doing it's job and acting in good faith, it should be able to easily identify which of the requirements the scout did not meet, and what he needs to do to complete it(them). The scout goes off, completes the requirements, earns his rank and learns he really does have to do the requirements to earn the rank and life goes on.

 

If on the other hand, a BOR, does abuse it's authority and denies a scout a rank he has rightfully earned, the scout should know there are proper channels he can take to appeal the Board's decision. If the BOR is unwilling or unable to articulate to the scout what he needs to do to complete the rank requirements, an appeal may be a legitimate alternative. The scout(with all due respect, not an SM's wife, SM, scout's parents, or dissenting board member) should submit the appeal. (an adult of course can deliver it.)

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

SA

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

gwd,

 

If you are asking if these circumstances are prevalent in this forum, the answer is yes.

 

If you are asking if it happens on a regular basis in most districts, the answer is no. Nothing would ever get done.

 

Something will happen and probably has in your district but it has escaped your attention. People are very good most of the time.

 

FB