New Life Requirement for our Troop.

[evmori]

Beavah,

He only got it right if he is approving or denying the project based on the project, not the Scout's role in the project. And frankly, if the project isn't good enough for a service project, it probably isn't good enough for an Eagle project.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[EagleInKY]

You're right Ed. The "you can't count Eagle service project hours for Star and Life" is a "Scouting Urban Legend" that many of us have fallen for. I only found out the policy after a scout challenged me (politely) on why there's such a stupid rule. I did some checking, only to find out there was no such rule. I went back and apoligized to the scout for being duped. I now know the truty.

[Lynda J]

Our troop always allows our Star and Live Scouts to use the hours they help with Eagle for their service hours. When I am helping teach Leaders Specific this is one of the things I stress. Use the projects you are doing as much as possible. Our last Eagle project two Star and one Life Scouts got their 6 hours.

[LongHaul]

The question of late has become not whether hours worked at an Eagle service project can qualify as service hours toward Star and Life but rather whether they must be accepted as service hours. Once again forum members have aligned themselves on one side or the other and read the words to suit their position. Examples for and against are worded to support an argument not enter concepts for discussion. Ive said it before and I will say it again now, I wish I could just hand each scout an Eagle rank when they join my troop. Those who are only interested in the prestige and bragging rights of beig an Eagle Scout could then leave and those who want to learn what Scouting has to teach can stick around. It would put an end to this type of debate once and for all. Physically being in a place does not constitute service even if service is being rendered by others. (Now lets debate the meaning of take part in:()

LongHaul

[Eagledad]

>>Those who are only interested in the prestige and bragging rights of beig an Eagle Scout could then leave and those who want to learn what Scouting has to teach can stick around.

[ljnrsu]

 I have to agree with LongHaul and Beavah on this. Its up to the SM's discretion on what to accept as hours for Star and Life service projects.

 "While a FirstClass/Star Scout,take part in service projects totaling at least 6 hours work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster."

 The approval is for the project the Scout is working on to fullfil for his advancement requirement.

 "Star and Life service projects may be approved for Scouts assisting on Eagle Service projects." (33215  p. 20, my emphasis).

 It doesn't say "must be or can't be" it says "may be". "may be" leaves it up to the SM's discretion on what to accept. Its a choice the SM needs to make, whether accepting or not accepting working on another Scouts project fullfils the requirement.

As for the original post of a SM requiring leading a service project for Life, thats for the CO / IH and COR to decide if its adding to the requirements. They are the ones who are responsible for the unit and how the program is being delivered to the Scouts. The post doesn't say what prompted this change in projects or if there even was one. There could be a reason other than what was stated we are not privy to. Without all the pieces its kinda hard to a meaningful decision.

 

[yelruh]

I think National BSA has to make a decision about "Life Projects", and do it quickly.

 

I, my spouse and my two sons, just got removed from a troop partially because we started asking questions about a life project, looking into why we couldn't do just the requirements, and no more.

 

I never knew it could be such a hot button. Our former troop doesn't make any information available anywhere, on the "Life project". The boy has to ask the SM for it, often repeatedly if the SM doesn't want the scout to advance. Mine was one the SM obviously didn't want to advance.

 

We've supported this SM for 2 1/2 years, even over a nasty split, where the SM was removed by the Chartered Organization, and a new troop was started. Turns out the previous Troop was 100% correct. This SM is magnificent at being able to spin stuff, and we were blind. We are so sorry now.

 

I'm afraid the SM has been trying to convince the local council that we are a pain in the neck, overprotective parents, who don't want their son to do any work, and complain about things so that people will just give in to us, so we will go away. So, the local council is looking into it, but I have a feeling they think it is just "personality" differences again. The biggest problem is Council has a new staff person in charge of this who wasn't around last year, and I don't think he has the full story from last year.

 

In fact my family can work with the SM, even if we disagree with the SM. It's the other way around, the SM & ASM don't want us asking questions or calling them on anything, they want to keep everything in the troop, and don't go asking questions! My spouse and I are both fully trained, and have years of scouting expereince, my spouse was an ASM until he was removed, two weeks before we were removed from the troop.

 

So who can we contact at a regional or national level who can help us? This SM removes boys and parents from the troop without ever thinking about the effect on their scouting career, just what the SM wants to do. So school is out, most troops aren't meeting often, my son isn't going to summer camp and he is in limbo. There is no lone scout program in our council, which the SM was so nice to point out, as a parting shot.

 

I also forgot, the SM has "lost" several of his blue cards for eagle required merit badges.

[Beavah]

Yah, yelruh. That's the hard part about "askin' questions and callin' them" on things. At some point, the volunteers just don't want to spend any more of their time on that. They volunteered to try to help kids and have some fun in the woods, after all, not debate requirement 7c(1). At the point they're sick of the debate, they can either leave (hurt all kids) or ask the COR or Committee to remove the offender (hurt one kid) who is takin' up too much time.

 

Which is why I counsel that unless you're willin' to step up and be SM, yeh have to think carefully about critiquing the guy in the job. Even in small ways, if every time da SM works with a particular boy, the boy's parents give him grief, then the SM is, over time, going to avoid goin' out of his way to work with that boy.

 

Sounds like you've burned bridges with your son's current troop. Is there some reason why he can't go back and join the original troop from before the split? I think that's where I'd go first. After that, you may need to look further afield, like the next town over. Might be a longer drive, but yeh might find a troop that's a better fit for your family.

 

As to blue cards, your son should still have his copy (right?) which he can take to a new troop. Alternately, if he's done the work and knows the stuff, a quick meeting with a new counselor should allow him to demonstrate that and get a signoff.

[yelruh]

My spouse was an ASM, was there for all meetings, and most camping trips, and took a week off from work to go to scout camp.

 

I think that's a little more involved than just a parent, critizing the SM. He felt he was part of the team, and could talk about things that didn't make sense, like the life project, without being kicked out of the troop. He was never asked to take over as SM, but since we are both fully trained (IOLST) that certainly would have been an option.

 

 

[Lynda J]

I ran this subject by our DE last night. Guess what. It is adding a requirement. As far as CO making the decission. They can not change BSA policy.

 

National has made a decission. THey have in written policy that you can not add a requirement.

It is very clear.

Requirements can not be added or taken away.

 

A Scout must do no more or no less than the requirement as written.

 

I would be looking for a troop that wants to teach their boys that going by the rules is the right thing to do. I would also be talking to the Council Advancement Chair.

[Beavah]

I ran this subject by our DE last night. Guess what. It is adding a requirement.

 

Yah, guess what? The DE has no authority in the BSA structure to make that decision. That's a decision that is the sole purview of the advancement committees (i.e. volunteers) as it is a policy/mission decision.

 

At the point when the boy has fulfilled all of the other requirements and the SM refuses to sign for service, the boy can appeal to the Troop Committee for a BOR anyway. If they say no, he can appeal to the district, then the council, then the national advancement committees. The BSA can choose to issue the award over the unit's objections.

 

But now, what does that accomplish? Does it build a healthy scouting community? Does it make the unit volunteers who are runnin' the program want to keep givin' their time? How do the other boys feel who earned the award according to the expectations of their SM, when some kid who can't be bothered to lead a puny 6 hour project gets the award by complainin'? How do the other parents feel?

 

Yah, the boy's parents might get the patch. But in the process there's a good chance their son and his friends would lose much of the value of the program.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Beavah, God Love ya!

 

I keep trying to leave this thread but you keep pullin' me back in

 

I want to explore this premise that you seem to have that the scoutmaster gets to skirt BSA policy as long as he has the good of the program at heart or something like that. Like I have said before I dont think I understand what you are trying to say.

 

Lets say a scoutmaster is very politically active and quite active in the scouts as well. And he takes a dim view of what he perceives are policies of Globalization so he decides that to spare his scouts such nonsense, he will just give out the Citizenship in the World merit badge when a scout reaches 20 merit badges so the scout will get Eagle, he just doesnt have to do anything to get it. Of course he is a registered Merit badge counselor. Otherwise, he is a great guy, beloved by the Troop and community, can he do this or should someone speak up?

 

ANother scoutmaster a few towns over was quite shaken by 9/11. He feels in todays world everyone must be disaster prepared. He requires all his scouts to get the Emergency Prep merit badge before he will give them a Scoutmaster Conference for Star. Should he be able to do this?

 

 

[FScouter]

"The DE has no authority in the BSA structure to make that decision. That's a decision that is the sole purview of the advancement committees (i.e. volunteers) as it is a policy/mission decision."

 

That's not true at all. BSA owns the BSA program. BSA charters local community groups to use the BSA program. The chartered organization agrees to use the program within the policies of BSA. And the policy of BSA is that units may not add rank requirements.

 

It is not good for boys or the local community or Scouting when a volunteer takes it upon himself to mess with the BSA program and thumb his nose at BSA. Who is a parent going to have more faith in: a proven BSA program, or a volunteer with an attitude that "I know better"?

[Hunt]

To a certain extent, I think I agree with what Beavah is saying. The way I would put it, though, is that I am not going to challenge the SM or other dedicated leaders over small stuff, or stuff that, although not exactly right, isn't inconsistent with what the organization is trying to accomplish. The trick is deciding which side of the line a particular issue is on. For me, requiring Life candidates to lead their service projects would be enough over the line for me to press the issue. Whether it would be far enough for me to appeal, or to leave the unit, I don't know.

[Beavah]

That's not true at all. BSA owns the BSA program. BSA charters local community groups to use the BSA program.

 

Yah, that's right FScouter. And in the BSA's own program and organizational structure, issues of advancement are expressly the purview of the unit, district, council, and national advancement committees. There is nothing in the BSA program or governance structure that permits a DE or even an SE to make an interpretation of advancement requirements.

 

Nor, in the BSA governance structure does the DE have any say in charter decisions. That is exclusively the SE, and only with express permission from national.

 

It's not enough to quote rules, eh? It is necessary to understand structures, intent, and goals.