troop's OWN requirements for advancement... allowed?

[mom2scouts]

I've questioned this before but have always been "shut down" and not really given an answer. I'm thinking we could fight it if we truly wanted to..

On second class the requirement that states about having to participate in a drug alcohol program with your troop, school etc. and discuss with your family.

My Youngest son is working on this level and was told (him and all the boys that were at this level) that they not onlyhad to do this but also make a poster and write a 5 minute speach and present it to the troop during one of the next two meetings.

My Oldest son did this also and I questioned it then but were too new to the troop to want to cause waves.

Last night after working ON HIS OWN doing his poster and writing his speech with little help from the internet and NO help from me or my husband etc. He comes home from the meeting saying his poster was NOT good enough and the troop master told him to do it again! While another little boy (who I know very much and know this to be true) had three posters all collages of pics that he just had to cut and paste (my son's was completely hand drawn by him) and then this kid also did his speech and could NOT pronounce the words and had to ask for help... so tells me MOm or Dad did it for him. I know the family and they constantly do this kids work for him!

Can we fight this?... NO not that the other kid didn't do his own work but that this is not truly a requirement...

Also, I think really that if the other kid had NOT done his at the same time they would have been fine with my son's work!

ideas???

[jr56]

This troop is so wrong it's not even funny. Get yourself a copy of the National Advancement Policy at your local scout shop for a couple of bucks. In there it states explicitly that noone can add or detract from the written advancement requirements. It also states the appeal procedure. Show this to your troops Advancement Chairman. If that doesn't work, show it to your troops Committee Chairman. If that doesn't work, go to the District Advancement Chairman, your Unit Commisssioner can help you with this if you desire. This is such a blatant violation, that I don't think it would get above the District level, but you could take it on to Council and National if you desired. Good luck, as soon as you encounter someone who knows what they are doing, your troops leadership is going to have egg in their face big time.

[evmori]

What this Troop is doing is adding to the requirements and that isn't allowed. All a Scout must do to complete this requirement is exactly what the requirement states. I would fight it.

 

And, BTW, it's Scoutmaster not Troop master.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[mom2scouts]

SORRY! Iknow it's scoutmaster... why I said troop master is beyond me... I think this just had me so fired up that I wasn't thinking!

Thanks for your support... I didn't think they were allowed to do this. My husband was angry too when he looked at the requirement. He's a leader and was angried that the scoutmaster would try this. He is going to hopefully bring it up at the next meeting...

[OldGreyEagle]

Its moronic "rules" like this that suck the joy of scouting out of troops. Is it in the BSA rules that a Troop can add requirements? It most certainly is NOT, but that doesnt stop Troops from doing idiotic twists to the program based on the fact someone thinks they have a better way.

 

There are many many references you can use to dispute this added requirement. In the BSA Publication "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedues" #33088D there is found Advancement Rules and Regulations Article X, Section 1 Clause 6

 

Clause 6. Ranks. There shall be the following ranks in Boy Scouting: Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle. The requirements shall be those authorized by the Executive Board and set forth in official Scouting publications. Eagle Palms may also be awarded on the basis of requirements authorized by the Executive Board and set forth in official Scouting publications

 

The requirements are those authorized by the BSA executive board not the scoutmaster or troop committee.

 

On page 23 of this publication it states "No Council, District, unit or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement.

 

[jr56]

Thanks OGE. I knew somebody out there would have an exact page number to quote from.

[acco40]

I wouldn't "fight it" I would approach the problem like this:

 

1) Understand who is in charge of the advancement program in your troop (hint - it is the Scoutmaster, like it or not).

 

2) Understand what the actual requirement is: Participate in a school, community, or troop program on the dangers of using drugs, alcohol, and tobacco, and other practices that could be harmful to your health. Discuss your participation in the program with your family.

 

Now, if the "troop program" as defined by the Scoutmaster entails making a poster and giving a speech, the SM has the authority to determine if your son's participation met this requirement. If my son did what your son did (made a poster and gave a speech) I would ask the SM if he (or she) felt that he participated and if not why not. Gently remind the SM that the requirement makes no mention of how well only that he participate. I would also add that he discussed his participation with his family (you I presume). You gain nothing by antagonizing your son's SM or from belittling the SM in front of your son.

 

A second alternative is to have your son participate in a school or community program and relate this information to the SM.

 

Again, don't worry about what the other kids have or have not done. Be an advocate for your son but be careful not to sour the SM on your son by your actions. They (SMs) are not perfect as we all know. If you get nowhere with this approach, I'd recommend getting the ear of the committee chair and/or the Charter Organization Representative. An excellent opportunity for checks and balance against dictatorial SMs is to join the troop committee and participate on Board's of Review.

 

[molscouter]

It seems to me that there are a couple of issues here. First, it appears that the troop is doing their own drug alcohol program. Since it is their program, can the troop require the boys to make a poster and give a 5 minute speech on this subject? I believe the answer is yes, and I don't see how it is adding to the requirements.

 

Having said that, unless the program specifically brought up exact criteria as to what the poster and speech must consist of, they should have passed your son on the requirement. The only way I would not have is if his presentations contained great amounts of erroneous material.

[Beavah]

I'm with acco and molscouter. I often wonder how folks who get an angry parent further riled up to go make a stink with the troop leadership feel that they're helping the situation. Even when "right" in terms of technicality it strikes me as being "wrong" in terms of Loyalty, Courtesy, and Kindness.

 

As a parent, I'd use my time more productively to support the SM and help my son a bit to add some "polish and practice" to his poster presentation. Presentation and communication skills are good things to learn; they can even be tied into Communications MB. What a great opportunity to work on them! I'd be glad the SM was insisting on some standard of quality.

 

Finally, I definitely would put the other boy's presentation out of my mind. As a parent, I have no idea how the SM is handling this... it may be, perhaps, that it comes up in a more private environment like a SM conference down the road that I'm not privy to; it may be that the SM or CC will be having a talk with that parent; it may be that the SM is just a volunteer and doesn't want to deal with an obnoxious pushy parent and so lets a kid get by without really learning anything. Who knows? Not my business.

 

Do what's best for your boy. Is it better to help him learn how to do a good job with a presentation, or is it better to burn a lot of adult leader good will just as long as your boy gets the signoff?

 

[OldEagle4Life]

On page 23 of this publication it states "No Council, District, unit or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement.

 

OldGreyEagle, when you quoted this and the above lines talking about the executive board, you were talking about the national exec board, right?

 

I felt this related enough to post on this thread...COUNCIL's adding requirements for advancement. My council has a requirement that makes all scouts, once they are star or life, attend a seminar on Eagle. They can go any time once they turn star (so they may have several years to do this, and it is only 1-2 hours) but before they can even start to plan out their eagle project or anything else, they must attend this seminar. I don't know how advancement committees deal with eagle canidates, but this seems like the same thing, just on the council level, and it has always irked me since I have always been told that NO ONE can add or subtract requirements in a normal scouting situation.

 

So, is the council (this is sanctioned on every level of the council, from the exec board down to the district advancement committee) allowed to actually do this, and to prohibit a boy from completing his work on eagle and his eagle project if he does not attend this seminar!

 

OldEagle

[OldGreyEagle]

Indeed it is the National Executive Board, it saddens me deeply to know that such abuse can occur in a program with such highly stated goals. I beleive it was F. Scott Fitzgerald who said "Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy.".

 

I can't stand that the BSA is becomming a tragedy

 

[ScoutNut]

Your council can't stop a boy's progress toward Eagle. They have no say on the boys earning of merit badges, serving in a POR, or completing any of the other requirements, with the exception of the Eagle project.

 

The Eagle project has to be approved by your District Committee before he starts work on it. So, they do have the ability to stop work on the project.

 

Although technically adding a requirement, the seminar might serve a very valid purpose that I know nothing of (since I have not taken it). It might be the method your council uses to assign an Eagle Mentor to the Scout. It might be the way that they distribute the Eagle Packets to the Scout. It might be, if your council has been having problems with Troops running Joe Shmoe's Program instead of BSA's program, the way that your council gets accurate information to the Scouts on the Eagle requirements in general & the Eagle project in particular. There can be any number of reasons that your council does this. Hopefully your council runs these seminar's rather frequently. Since the scout has at the very least, 12 months to attend, I really do not see the hardship here

 

Do you, personally, know of a boy who has been denied Eagle because he has refused to attend the seminar?

[OldEagle4Life]

I have never heard of anyone denied eagle for not attending the seminar. It has been around for I would say, 3 years now give or take. Most people have no problem attending the seminars, some learn things, especially if they are from a "joe schmo" troop. I just personally dislike interference, whether meant to be positive or negative, of this nature on any level.

 

The seminars are offrered every month, at every district roundtable (so there are 4 place you can go every month to get this done). You also could schedule one if you have a group who would like to do it, and they were offered, at least this past summer, every week at camp. I think it was the past 2 summers actually.

 

About eagle mentors, they don't use this to assign mentors at all, since the scouts can attend the seminar any time, any place (preferably with a guardian, but a troop leader can fill in if no parents are available). I am pretty sure it is primarily to hand out Eagle Packets and distribute information, to make sure everyone has the right info. I would personally prefer if it was an optional program, highly encouraged, so that those who HAVE questions can get them answered, those troops that WANT their boys to have council/district committee's provide additional information concerning Eagle.

 

My beef is just that they make it in essence then, a requirement for Eagle Scout, to participate in this seminar, which they should't. Is it a bad thing, in and of itself, no. It's annoying pain in the ()3 is all.

[mom2scouts]

What ticks me off is the fact that the week before these posters speaches were due they had a drug/alcohol seminar at the troop with a local representative. So they fulfilled this requirement. My feeling on the poster/speach wasn't so much that they were asked to do it but that they were "judged" on how good it was. YES my son could have done a better job... but he did do it and he did take the time to draw it etc. You can't compare a drawn poster to a cut and pasted one! But that is what I think the scoutmaster did. Had this other boy not done his the way he did my son would have been fine. His poster was no different than my oldest son's was a few years ago...

I think these advancements are enough and the kids have a hard time getting alot of it done especially during the school year and our troop is not big on "lighting fires" under the kids...

No where in the requirement does it say "be judged and pass the scoutmaster's approval". HECK for that matter any of the leaders could turn it away right?

Also, I'm not planning on "fighting" it...I was just asking a question here. I would NOT fight it because we need leadership and I do not want to make enemies or make it harder on my son. The scoutmaster is a nice guy and I truly think he means no harm.... he's just for lack of a better word "fickle". HECK, when our older son went through this he was the ONLY boy who made a poster or did the speech yet EVERY boy his age has passed second class... go figure?

[evmori]

Not doing anything is just as bad as the SM adding to the requirements.