BoR Question "What would you change?"

[acco40]

Lisabob (won't ask how that name originated), if that truly is your son's troop policy how on earth did any of the boys fulfill the second class requirement of "On one of these campouts, select your patrol site and sleep in a tent that you pitched."? Seems to me their patrol site was picked out for them.

 

 

 

[Kahuna]

Seems to me the real question is, why are they putting up tents in a line, like a military boot camp exercise? Doesn't make much sense from an outdoor standpoint or from a patrol method standpoint. The harrassment is a more or less natural outgrowth of the method they are using. Doesn't make it right, but it is natural. Seems to me the Scout should be asking if we can't do it the way it shows in the camping books, where each patrol is together.

[evmori]

scoutldr,

While I don't agree with the method used it is in no way hazing! Your dictionary definition doesn't fit because setting up a tent isn't a meaningless task! Now whipping the Scouts with reeds while they try to set up tents, that's hazing!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[LongHaul]

Ed,

What you or I may see as constituting hazing may not be what the next person sees as hazing. Here is another fine example of an ambiguous policy National wants us to follow but refuses to clearly define or explain. When I was a scout we would engage in Snipe hunts at summer camp. This was a traditional practice, completely voluntary on the part of each participant and no one was made to feel foolish. Today it is considered hazing because younger and nave scouts are the brunt of the activity. We all know about Campsite levels, Tent Stretchers, 50 feet of Shore Line, Smoke benders etc. sending a boy after any of these is now hazing. One of my ASMs brought dry ice up to camp to keep some special ingredients for a dutch oven delight frozen till needed. When a boy came looking for A Bucket of steam he was given our large pot with about an inch of water and some dry ice. When he returned to his site and handed the bucket to his SPL the laughs were shared by all with the SPL becoming the brunt of the joke. This, as was explained to me later by a lawyer, was indeed hazing on the part of the SPL and my ASM was guilty of breaking State law because he didnt report it to the Camp Master and file an incident report. Where we camp all adults are required to sign a form containing several state laws on child abuse, and agree to follow all them. Not reporting ANY INCIDENT is a violation of one of these State laws.

Those of us who have been around since before every third action ended up in court must accept that the tide has turned. Like it or not forcing the newest members to wait till last, singles them out and draws attention to their inexperience regardless of why we are dong it. In todays BSA we are not allowed to cause stress or anxiety to a scout by singling him out from the group. Rank has its Privileges can not extend to the point that those privileges cause undue hardship to those outside the group. Having the New Scout Patrol cook for the Senior Patrol may not be wrong but forcing the New Scouts to wait till the Senior Patrol is finished eating and then be left with the leftovers as their meal is wrong. Making the least experienced wait till last to put up their tent could be just poor leadership but when the inexperienced scouts are then made to feel as if they are holding things up and inconveniencing others the pivotal point comes. Hazing is indeed defined by the reaction of the person being hazed. What is funny to one could be demeaning to his patrol mate. If Lisabobs son felt singled out and pressured, if he felt as if he was being treated unfairly, if he felt this treatment was because he was one of the new guys then its hazing.

Thats the way is was explained to me in Youth Protection.

LongHaul

(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[scoutldr]

Well said, LongHaul.

[Eagle76]

Some interesting points raised in the original post.

 

First, I've never heard of a troop setting up camp like this. I suspect the only reason you'll be given is the common trap of "It's the Way We've Always Done It." Even if you're going to set up in a line, why can't all the tents be set up at once? There's no reason to wait until one tent is done before the next in line begins. My vote is to categorize this as hazing, as it involves imposing a delay which serves no purpose, and ends up making the task unnecessarily more difficult by forcing it to be done in the dark.

 

Second, this is a common question for a SM confernce or BOR, for the reasons stated by others.

 

Finally, the comment that intrigues me most is the part about the debate going on among the adult leaders. I am encountering the same attitudes in my troop, and I'm trying to change things. The previous/current attitude is the hands-off attitude described. I liken it to teaching someone to swim by throwing them into the swimming hole. They may learn to swim, but in my opinion, that doesn't make it the best way. I believe a better way is to provide instruction, then send them out to try. The concept of "character building through adversity" and expecting them to "figure it out" will likely result in slow advancement, discouragement, and eventually dropping out. My belief is that if the adults take a hands-off approach to an extreme, they are neglecting their responsibility to provide direction for the troop, and to set proper expectations.

[Beavah]

Some people would consider cutting the corner off a totin' chit to be "hazing". I'd suspect that BSA has a much lower tolerance that what would be needed to qualify as a felony as you've described.

 

Indeed.

 

My point was that, given that "hazing" has a legal definition in each state as a crime, accusing someone in public of participating in "hazing" either means that they are guilty of that crime as defined, or the accuser is guilty of slander.

 

In my state, accusing someone of hazing means claiming that they have intentionally and recklessly engaged in acts which endanger the health of a student...includ[ing] any brutality of a physical nature, such as whipping, beating, branding...

 

That's what hazing really means, folks. One should not throw around accusations of "hazing" without very thoughtful reflection. Folks may not like cuttin' a corner of the chit, but they'd best not accuse someone of hazing for that. Not only does it violate our Oath and Law, it violates our laws.

 

[scoutldr]

Beave, just because your state has legally defined a term, doesn't mean the BSA can't have higher standards and a different definition. Most states also define discrimination in legal terms, but the BSA definition is different in many cases. This concept is common...in the Safety and health field, OSHA has defined "hazard" in legal terms, but employers are free to define it in more stringent terms if they feel it is in their best interest, as long as they meet the minimum requirements. Now as an employee, you may think that the more stringent requirement is silly, but you are free to choose a different employer.

 

In addition, as you describe your state law, it sounds like it applies in an educational setting and is probably not relevant outside the school setting. I would venture a guess that in most states, "hazing" is not illegal outside the school setting, however other laws may apply, such as harrassment, libel, slander, assault, battery, child abuse, sexual harrassment, etc.

[evmori]

So a Scout is asked to clean a pot & he feels he is being singled out & pressured he is being hazed? Or a Scout is asked to lead a flag ceremony & he feels he is being singled out & pressured he is being hazes? If that is your definition of hazing, then every Scout in every Troop has been hazed at some point. Get real! The way this Troop sets up their tents is unusual but in no way is it hazing!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[Kudu]

When they have campouts, the boys pitch their tents in a line. The SPL and other boys in PoRs go first, followed by the highest ranking scouts without PoRs, all the way down the line to "scout" ranks.

 

Mike F's advice is excellent. With some preparation your son will learn how to present a case to adults in a knowledgeable and respectful way. That is the lesson to be learned.

 

Having been to Wood Badge you may think that once the trained adults realize that they are not using the Patrol Method, things will start to change. Don't bet on it.

 

I've never seen it discussed, but over the years I have been amazed at how much energy some adults will devote to deconstructing the Patrol Method even when it is firmly established in a Troop. Especially charismatic former Cub Scout leaders! They keep silent through training, and sometimes smoulder for years until they are in a position to "make things more efficient," then look out!

 

But maybe it's just me :-/

 

Kudu

 

The Boy's Game

 

Immediately upon arrival at a camp site, a Troops Patrols establish their "duffel-lines." The Troop Leaders Council gathers and makes a survey of the site for the purpose of giving their Patrol Leaders a chance to select campsites for their Patrols. As soon as the selections are made, the Patrol Leaders are dismissed, each Patrol Leader leads his Scouts to their site, and they go to work while the Scoutmaster and the other Troop Leaders keep hands off, possibly going into a huddle about special activities to take place later.

 

Youthe Scoutmasterand your assistants should be present to advise, but you should not volunteer any. And most important of all, you should not go near the Patrol set-ups until after the Patrol Leaders come to you and announce: "Camp completed, sir!"

 

www.inquiry.net/patrol/hillcourt/boy's_game.htm

[scoutldr]

No, Ed that is not the definition of hazing. Go back to the beginning and carefully read the thread again.

 

Merry Kwachrismakah.

[evmori]

I read the entire thing. It's not hazing! Unusual but not hazing! And if you consider this hazing, what about the OA tap out & Ordeal ceremonies? If this tent setting up method is hazing then those should be criminal offenses!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[Lisabob]

Thanks for all your responses.

 

Acco - "I used to be a bobwhite..."- hence, Lisa'bob (our whole patrol attached 'bob to our names, not just me)

 

Semper, no, they don't do take-down in the reverse order. As far as I can tell it's every boy for themselves at that point. Although at the last campout one of the older boys apparently got impatient waiting for the younger guys to finish up and started "helping" by taking their tents down with them still inside. Grr. Probably a good thing I wasn't there. Then I might have become "Lisa'bear" instead.

 

Kudu - I fear you're right that just because it is pointed out that this isn't a great example of the patrol method doesn't mean it will be changed - the SM here isn't known for being introspective. And, as a former cub leader (don't know if "charismatic" applies but...) the last thing I'm trying to do here is deconstruct the patrol method - I just was surprised by the situation my son described and it is interesting that there doesn't seem to be a good reason for setting up camp that way. Of course, this is just my son's side of the story but I have discretely asked a couple other adults if what he described is accurate and they said it was.

 

Ed, Beavah and others - I don't think this is done in an active attempt to haze the younger guys. Like so many things right now with this particular troop, I just don't think some of the adult leaders have given much thought to how best to engage the younger boys in the troop program. And not surprisingly, the youth leadership tends to follow the examples set by the SM and his supporters. It clarified a little for me why my son feels some of the older boys aren't always very friendly, courteous, kind, etc. though.

 

My son says he plans to bring this up at the BoR in early January so we'll see what happens.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

 

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Acco, you brought up a good point about how they are meeting their 2nd class requirement (pick your patrol's camp site). I honestly can't see how they could. However...that's a bit of a problem for this troop these days too, as they allow anybody 1st class and above to sign off on requirements for the newer scouts. What sometimes seems to happen is that the requirements get signed without having really been met. I suppose that's a trade off of allowing the boys to sign each other's books. Strangely, this has not resulted in rapid advancement for the first year scouts anyway. Of the 12 first years who joined last Feb., only 2 have tenderfoot (my son will be the 3rd if his BoR goes ok); none have 2nd class, one still doesn't have his scout rank. It isn't that they aren't participating either. This is another out-growth of the prevailing troop view that the boys should "figure it out" on their own. They really didn't have a 1st year program last year and it took the new boys quite some time to "figure out" how to get people to teach them the skills they needed and get things signed off.

 

Among the rest of the troop (about 40 boys total) there are only 3 or 4 boys who are in their 2nd and 3rd years with the troop and none of those boys are lower than 1st class. So I don't know how they got their 2nd class requirements signed off, or whether they actually did the requirements as written.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[John-in-KC]

Wow, Lisabob, lots to say there...

 

First, there is a difference between "boy run" and "parents/leaders abdicate." I'm not sure your SM, ASMs and CC know the difference.

 

Youth NEED ongoing encouragement and recognition. That's one of the reasons for the Advancement method of Scouting. If a young man is at all active, 1st Class should come in a year to 18 months.

 

As far as qualifications to sign off, I submit adult leaders abdicate their responsibilities when they simply say "anyone above 1st Class can sign off on Scout, TF, 2C or 1C requirements." I would want a young man to have at least Citizenship in the Nation to sign off on the Citizenship requirements. POINT OF FACT, at least one citizenship requirement requires the Scout to visit an adult of standing in the community to discuss rights and responsibilities!

 

Equally, BSA Lifeguard (step above Lifesaving MB) can only be awarded at/after age 14. If I was COR, I'd have many questions about the quality of the unit aquatics programs/procedures if anyone less than a BSA Lifeguard is signing off on the BSA Swim Test.

 

Setting the conditions and standards for a youth to sign off on advancement for another youth is the right and proper job of the Scoutmaster, with the approval of the Troop Committee and the COR. The SM's task is then to get the PLC to find their own way to those set conditions and standards.

 

John

A Good Old Owl