BoR Question "What would you change?"

[Lisabob]

My son had his first SM conference for rank advancement (tenderfoot) the other day and the SM suggested to him that he should consider questions like "what do you like so far, and what would you like to cahnge, about the troop?" as he gets ready for his first BoR. So my son was chatting about this in the car on the way home and here's what he said he would change.

 

When they have campouts, the boys pitch their tents in a line. The SPL and other boys in PoRs go first, followed by the highest ranking scouts without PoRs, all the way down the line to "scout" ranks. (this apparently does not apply to the adult leaders, who set up their tents a little distance away.) He says the boys are only allowed to set up their tent when the person in front of them in line is done with his tent. Consequently, the least experienced (who so far are also the youngest) boys always end up setting up their tents last, usually in the dark, often quite late at night. My son feels this is unfair because, he says, the boys who get done first then also heckle the boys at the end of the line to hurry up (but, he says, they don't actually offer to help) so that everybody can get to cracker barrel and then go to bed or whatever. So he proposes that they change this so that each patrol picks its own spot and sets up its tents together, helping each other where necessary.

 

Now - this surprised me. Is the way my son describes his troop's camping set-up typical? I asked him whether anybody had explained why they did it this way and he said no, but I'm guessing there must be a logical reason for doing it this way. If so, what is it? Also wouldn't it be hard to meet that 2nd class requirement (pick out your patrol's site - 2b) if this is how the troop always sets up?

 

Whadda ya think? Also any thoughts on how my son might tactfully bring this up when asked at his BoR about what he would change, would be appreciated. There's a significant debate going on now among adult leaders in the troop over how to work with the younger/less experienced scouts. One side (incl. the SM) feels that adversity builds character and that the younger guys will either "figure it out" or they won't, on their own. The other side feels that the troop needs a more pro-active approach to helping the newer scouts build skills and confidence. So for better or worse, my son has identified one practice that may be right in the middle of this debate, and at 11 years old, he's not always the most delicate in the way he phrases his opinions.

 

Do you typically ask scouts questions about what they would like to see changed as part of your BoRs, and if so, what sorts of responses do you typically get?

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[SueM]

My own personal POV is that there should be a balance of both...you need to allow some adversity to happen to teach the boys what they need to learn, but you also need to know when to step in an TEACH those boys what to do and how to solve the problem the next time. IOW's let them fumble through things a couple of times to see if they can figure it out for themselves before offering help in one form or another.

 

sue m

[CA_Scouter]

Though I support some RHIP ( rank has its priviledges ), this seems to be done to the extreme, almost to the point of hazing. I can see where you can have the choice of tent sites go through the rankings, but to have to wait and then belittle the youngest ones because they are the last to put up their tents, is, well, just plain STUPID.

 

This approach teaches nothing useful. What it does teach must be untaught as the Scout grows older. What a crock.

 

Adversity is when a Scout forgets his jacket, and he has to roam around camp with his sleeping back wrapped over his shoulders. Adversity is forgetting your mess kit and having to eat out of a can. This is adversity that is useful and from which much can be learned.

 

I think the Scout needs to answer the question truthfully, and politely ask the SM to explain his reasoning for permitting this situation to occur.

 

 

[evmori]

In our unit, the SPL & ASPL & PL's assist the younger Scouts with setting up their tents. Then, they set their's up.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[scoutldr]

Yes, the BOR question is typical...we use it at every BOR. Your troop's camping "policy" is not. In fact, it borders on hazing, which has no place in a Scouting program. Your son's "proposal" is spot on, and in fact, is the way most troops operate, in my experience.

[scoutingagain]

What Scoutldr said!

 

However, if your son is going to bring up this issue at a BOR, you may want to spend a little time coaching him in how to present the issue without being or appearing to be disrespectful. If it is a true BOR, the SM shouldn't be present and your son's input may provide support for those wishing to change some of the practices within the troop. The board can provide feedback to the SM without specifically identifying where the information came from.

 

Your son sound like good future SPL material!

 

SA

[EagleInKY]

I think if we did it this way, we'd still be setting up for last month's campout. Our older boys are usually the slowest. Those poor Tenderfoot's would never get to sleep.

 

Whenever it is possible (which is most of the time), we set up in patrols, not in rank order. He should suggest they use the patrol method to set up camp, and allow each patrol to set up how they want to.

[SemperParatus]

"Do you typically ask scouts questions about what they would like to see changed as part of your BoRs, and if so, what sorts of responses do you typically get?"

 

That is a very typical question during our Troop's boards. The standard answer is, "nothing - everything's good", which all the adults know is not necessarily true (there are always improvements that can be made). Now, that answer could be exactly what the boy thinks, or just a lazy response. So, some board members try and draw out the answer a little more with more pointed discussions - all the trips have been worthwhile? happy with leader election process? etc.

 

Your son has a very valid point and should be prepared to bring it up at the board of review to discuss with them (whether he is asked the question or not). I am not of the opinion that this is 'hazing', but it does seem like a backwards way of setting up and an attempt to 'create' adversity for no apparent reason. Count me in the non-adversity crowd - IMO leaving 10-11 year old boys to their own devices to either 'get it or not' flies in the face of about a half-dozen points of the Scout Law.

 

Just out of curiosity, is take-down conducted in a reverse manner?

 

 

[Mike F]

Lisabob,

The BOR is a perfect time to bring this up. One of the purposes of BOR is for troop committee members to do a "sanity or status check" of the program functions in the troop. I agree with recommendation to put some thought into how to phrase it, but don't sweat it too much. He's an 11-yr old - just let the board know that this "tradition" is a major pain from the new guy point of view and it's not clear how this builds scout skills, discipline, or anything else. Then follow up with recommendation about camping by patrols like it talks about in his Boy Scout Handbook. (Then open the book and point to the page.)

This will be a great growth opportunity for your son. It's a major maturation step when kids can tell adults (with logic and respect) how something is not going right and needs to be changed. Even if they don't change their ways right away, he will gain confidence from stepping up and speaking out.

 

Let us know how it goes!

 

-mike

[Beavah]

Whoa, der!

 

"Hazing" is a criminal act in most states. I think y'all want to be a bit more circumspect before accusing fellow adult leaders of committing a felony.

 

Lisabob, I think your son knows exactly what to do ... go to his BoR and answer the questions truthfully and honestly. Checking to see if a boy has fulfilled all of the rank requirements is only one purpose of the BoR. Providing an opportunity for the troop committee to learn about and oversee the program is another... and feedback like your son's is vital to that goal. Chances are your son's thoughtful comments will cause folks to re-think a practice that "just hasn't been on the radar."

 

 

[John-in-KC]

LisaBob,

 

Last night, I sat an Eagle Board of Review. Our Troops' "Scouting Grandpa in residence" is a member of our Council Executive Board.

 

He asked the very question you titled this thread ... although he was looking a bit broader than internal workings of the Troop.

 

It's a wonderful open-ended question. You never know what's going to come from these young men, and it's always worth the listen!

 

John

A Good Old Owl Too...

[scoutldr]

Whoa, there yourself. What Lisabob said was, "Consequently, the least experienced (who so far are also the youngest) boys always end up setting up their tents last, usually in the dark, often quite late at night. My son feels this is unfair because, he says, the boys who get done first then also heckle the boys at the end of the line to hurry up (but, he says, they don't actually offer to help) so that everybody can get to cracker barrel and then go to bed or whatever." Hazing is in the eyes of the recipient...if the young scout feels hazed, (or embarrassed or ashamed, etc) then it's hazing. And no one said it was adults doing the hazing, although they are apparently condoning it. If the shoe fits...

[evmori]

Borders on hazing????? Huh?????? There is no way this is even close to hazing! Inconsiderate, maybe, but hazing! I guess kitchen clean up is hazing then!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[Prairie_Scouter]

Beavah,

 

Some people would consider cutting the corner off a totin' chit to be "hazing". I'd suspect that BSA has a much lower tolerance that what would be needed to qualify as a felony as you've described.

[scoutldr]

No, Ed. Kitchen duty is a necessary camp job. Making an 11 year old Tenderfoot wait until midnight to set up his tent while the older boys stand around harrassing and ridiculing him serves no purpose that I can see. How many points of the Scout Law does that support???

 

From the dictionary: Hazing:

1. To persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks. 2. To initiate, as into a college fraternity, by exacting humiliating performances from or playing rough practical jokes upon.

ETYMOLOGY: Perhaps from obsolete haze, to frighten, from obsolete French haser, to annoy, from Old French.