BOR Questions...a little long

[LongHaul]

John-in-KC,

     Thank you John, I did indeed want the long version. The concern I had with your original post was the line First, I never tell a Scout he's failed his BOR. . I wondered why you would, Ill say shield, a boy from this decision. I guess it was the word never that I focused on.

      Something I saw in your second post, While I believe in individual responsibility, the LEADER is responsible for all which happens or fails to happen. Took me back to my beginnings as a Scoutmaster. My philosophy was If it went right it is because the people I delegated tasks to did their job, if it went wrong its my fault. It took me a long time and my committee and assistant leaders a long time to break me of that. I had a real hard time separating responsibility and fault. Am I responsible to see that every boy is properly taught the skills he will need to advance? Yes! Is it my fault if he doesnt acquire those skills? No! Should I continue to try different approaches and methods to teach those skills until he does acquire them. ABSOLUTELY.

      Watching a patrol making macaroni and cheese from scratch using a home receipt which was very involved, and knowing that they had missed the part where it says Boil the macaroni, then letting them dump the uncooked macaroni into their prize winning cheese sauce may show questionable leadership. Though I will say I have never missed a cooking instruction after that. (I was helping with the sauce, the macaroni, biscuits and salad were somebody elses job!) Where as watching a boys teeth chatter or him limp because of blisters and NOT interceding is IMO grounds for being removed as a leader.

LongHaul

[SR540Beaver]

Jamboree......the ultimate BOR. Our council went the traditional route with canvas wall tents and dining flys. We had scouts from 1st class to Eagle and 12 to 17. We had many, many knot tying lessons. When you camp with today's equipment, you only use a knot on a rare occasion. If you don't use it, you'll lose it. I love knots. I'm horrible at them however, because I never have need to use them. I find it difficult to hold a boy accountable for retaining something he never is given an opportunity to use.

[John-in-KC]

Long Haul,

 

I think we're pretty close to violent agreement.

 

Do the youth come home from a campout SAFE, HEALTHY, and HAVING LEARNED A LESSON OR TWO? Those are the big ticket items I expect leaders to handle.

 

Was the supper "yucky" because they did something really dumb with the mac and cheese? That's a youth responsibility. Depending on the availability of older (14-17) youth, the adults may end up drawing out the LESSON though.

 

Time to get kid to music lesson. Chauffeurs are us!

[anarchist]

"I find it difficult to hold a boy accountable for retaining something he never is given an opportunity to use."

 

two problems with this statement- "never given"? do we want a program where we must "give" the boys everything? Just a question...

then the sentence point...which seems to be they never HAVE the opportunity to practice something...thats programs problem. We use knots at every camp... the dining fly, clothes line, hand wash station, flag pole and camp gadgets, bear bags. We tie down our canoes for travel with rope on water trips...why would have no opportunity...to practice, go figure... no offence here...but it seems a "cop-out" to me.

Last camp I was the first in camp so I started setting the adult tarp...in drives a parent with his son asking to help...not a problem- I had young scout (second class) a line and take the pole in hand..."young scout, put a taunt-line on that end" scout replies..."I'm not very good with knots," after a few half hearted attempts he wants to give me back the line..."nope, just take the end and....", still we are not making much happen...Dad "Chimes" in "Son, let (the old guy) do it", old guy laughs and says "nope, got no where to go in a hurry anyway, so lets trot this horse around the ring 'til we get it right"... twelve taunt-lines later he "had it"...and after dad went home he came back and thanked me for making him learn a knot...and asked for a sign off! If we want them to learn we present the opportunity to practice frequently...it is really not rocket science on eather side of this particular matter...

 

but I do stand by my point, if the scout is truly prepared he should have very few BoR problems. And if he is going for a BoR in any of the first class to eagle ranks he should KNOW his stuff cold...just the way I see it

Anarchist

Anarchist

 

[evmori]

Once again, you hit the nail on the head Anarchist! Great post and an even better job as a teacher!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[anarchist]

gosh, in reading my post....so many errors...sorry for not proofing...only excuse is I was in a hurry...halfway through my typing our neighbor called needing help...his son bagged real nice 8 point buck and need help dressing it out...

again sorry.

Anarchist

[FScouter]

Certainly a 1st Class Scout should know his stuff, and if he is properly prepared should have no trouble with a board of review.

 

I hope you're not all saying that the boy joeleeper initially posted about should be denied? According to Joe, he was denied (apparently) because he did not know what "A,B,C,D" was relating to CPR, and because he failed to demonstrate to the board that he could tie a bowline around his waist.

 

A Scout proficient in knots probably ought to be able to figure out how to tie a bowline in manner not taught his Handbook, but failure to do demonstrate this at a BOR hardly seems a valid reason to deny advancement. Can the boy tie a bowline as taught in the Handbook? We dont know. And what is "A,B,C,D". Do you all know what that is? If not, maybe your position as SM or SA should be suspended until you can give the correct answer?

[anarchist]

FScouter...

again way out in left field.....

 

just for the record (in short form)it's now:"ABCDS" not "ABCD"

A- Always

B- Be

C- Calm

D- During

S- Situation

 

a step further it's:

 

A- Assess the Scene

B-Barrier Use

C- Circulation

D- (no term for this letter)

S- Serious Bleeding

 

It continues (as a teaching tool) as a visual 5x5 "block" and I won't waste more time on this unless others here want to see it...so, no I won't have to give up my position...I earned it...with CPR, Wilderness First Aid, Defibrillation training...etc...

 

 

What I tried to say in my long post was the boys perspective of what went on may not be comeplete...or correct...and that several views should be considered...and as I have said before...we (in these forums) need to be careful about giving out "black and white" answers to subjective (very subjective here-no first party "witness")"situations". IMHO we are better served by saying something as simple as -"well gosh, sounds kinda harsh, on the boards part, maybe you ought to have coffee with the CC, the SM (and others?) to discuss the things the boy needs to work on...or what they felt the problems were"

 

every problem does not have to be a confrontation...and we (here) seem to see every issue as a nail and the "book" is the hammer we drive it home with....I wonder how many kids have gotten "pulled" from programs they could have thrived in because we adults just had to go head to head over "pride" or some silly rule???

 

(and BTW- as a "rescue knot" all boys should learn to tie "it" around their own waist as well as the waist (seat or upper chest) of a "victim")

 

IF THE SCOUTS ARE TRULY PREPARED THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE MUCH OF A PROBLEM with BoRs...is that so hard a concept to understand...or do we all just say "read the book - get the rank patch"...is THAT what you are saying? FScouter? (calm down-just showing you the "mis-understanding door" can swing both ways).

 

Anarchist

 

[dan]

ABCD depends on where you get your training at.

 

Canada?

Airway

Breathing

Circulation

Disability--This is a quick assessment of the neurological status. Use the "AVPU system" in the primary survey: A=alert, V=responds to voice, P=responds to pain, U=unresponsive.

 

Red Cross

Airway

Breathing

Circulation

Defibrillation

 

??? Circulation I thought was grouped in with Deadly Bleeding

Airway

Breathing

Circulation

Deadly Bleeding

 

From Scouting.org

Airway

Breathing

Circulation

Don't Delay

 

I am not sure where anarchist is coming up with his letters from?

 

[anarchist]

dan

as I said it was the first part of a teaching tool, the last two lines and the ones most of you know are:

 

A- Alert EMS

B- Breathing?

C- CPR

D- (blank again)

S- Spinal Injury

 

and finally

what you are used to:

 

A- Airway-(open)

B- Breathing (rescue)

C- Compressions (circulation)

D- Defibrillation

S- Shock management

 

makes a nice 5X5 visual on a powerpoint teaching screen for a near total assessment of the situation...thought it was kinda neat when I was first shown it...probably someone out there could come up with a memory tool that filled in the blanks but I never saw a need it worked for me when they taught it to me.... and as most of these folks know the "ABCD" was not the jist of the original post only a part...and I was "dancing" with FScouter...its fun and informative.

 

anarchist

[dan]

This was a question from joeleeper

(I know Airway, Breathing, Circulation, ? what is D for?)

I answered it.

You threw a whole bunch of letters around, that one or two people use for training, that has nothing to do with the question, how will this help the scout pass the BOR?

But yet you say you answered the question? Where? You still say D is undefined! The only post where you say D means something you said it means during, that helps alot!

 

[FScouter]

The boy participated in a board of review.

He walked away from it "very upset", because he "failed".

The boy does not know specifically why he was not approved.

The boy does not know what he needs to do next to get approved.

 

The board retested him on tying a knot.

The board retested him on CPR knowledge, including some reference to "ABCD".

 

The board deliberated, then told the boy he was "not ready", and to "try again in a few weeks."

 

The board re-tested, which is always improper. (There are other means to determine whether requirements have been met.)

The board did not tell him WHAT was not done satisfactorily.

The board did not schedule another review.

The board did not follow up with a written letter.

 

Bottom line, the board acted improperly, either out of ignorance, or from a misguided sense of authority.

 

A board of review should be a positive experience for a boy, even if he needs to work on a few things and come back. It doesn't sound at all like the boy received his due.

[anarchist]

gee, dan, calm down,

 

put the whole 5X5 puzzle together and see what it looks like or PM me with an email and I will send it to you...If you care to look again at my posts- my first post was fairly tame and while long, non confrontational and hopefully instructional. The second was again mainly informational... for the group(still no ABCD "stuff" because I took joeleepers 'question' about "d" as really a non-issue, and 'cause it was not really pertinent to what I was trying to get across..the ABCD "stuff" (third post)was aimed at our friend FScouter who tossed out the left handed challenge that any Adult who didn't know the answer (to the ABCD "stuff" should perhaps be willing to be suspended...(hypothetical?) (a negative impact like the young scout experienced?) And I was demonstrating there were lots of answers (and correct I might add...if you really read the post).

 

AND FScouter-

 

we have only part of the story (unless you have more than we do?)...

the original post was written by a dad who was not there....day after the BoR. DID he fail or was he not ready? Did the board not know when the next available board would sit? Sometimes these things are not as easy as you seem to think they are. DO you really know the boy was not told what he needed to do? We only have a third party story...(remember the whisper game from cubs scouts- what we hear is not necessarily what was said)

 

and as far as the "no letter issue"- FScouter- For gosh sake how much time did you give this "rogue" Board to write a letter before you condemned them?...lighten up for crying out loud...the board may or may not have done everything the boy said but none of us were there ...so rather than condemn; why not try to guide the father (who intelligently, I might add, did not want to over-react to all this)

 

Direct him towards not only diplomatically "advocating" for his son but also mentoring him to be better prepared in the future...If done correctly the whole troop can benefit! If done the way some here seem to feel is "the one true way"; it may lead to a raft of hard feelings and a power struggle that benefits no one.

 

In plain language...it might not be as easy and it is certainly not as fast as some here would like, but working within a troop is almost always better than going "head to head" with an existing power structure...Being "right" and having to leave a troop your son doesn't really want to leave because all of the old guard "dislikes your insides" seems somewhat of a pyric (sp?) victory.

nuff said

Anarchist

 

(and to give credit where it is "do"- FScouter, I did notice the modifier "(apparently)" in your earlier post...good for you! heck, I might win you over yet!....(or not.) ;>)

 

[dan]

anarchist

Correct? can you prove that? You say you are an expert but you could not even give the correct answer the board was looking for?

You are getting pretty good at not answering questions. I guess if you cannot answer the question than baffle them with bull, right?

The original poster even asked the questions in a follow up post, I think he really wanted to know.

 

Anyone thinks that this Board is going to change their ways are not living in the real world! They may change a little bit but not much. The fastest and easiest way the scout can get his advancement is to learn these skills and redo the BOR. Or he and his father can fight it he should get his advancement in 6 months to a year. I really think that is why the original posters wanted to know what the D was for, so he could tell his son, I bet he is working with his son on knots and getting him ready the his next BOR.

 

Shame on all of you who knew the answer and did not provide it.

[FScouter]

I would hate to see how little posting would take place if it were required to have perfect knowledge of the scenarios that start these threads. We only know what joeleeper posted. So that is what we respond to. Plus more response to the responses. Less than perfect knowledge Mr. Anarchist doesnt seem to suppress your opinions!

 

So, Ill state again my personal interpretation of BSA advancement policies.

 

- A board is wrong to re-test. There are ways to determine whether a boy has met the requirements other than to toss him a rope and tell him to tie a knot. The board needs to learn how to do their job without re-testing.

- A board is doubly wrong to test a boy on his knowledge of things that are not covered in his Handbook, (such as ABCD), if failure to know the answer results in his failing the review.

- A board is wrong to tell a boy he has failed, without also telling him exactly what was not done satisfactorily and what he needs to do to meet the advancement requirements.

- A board is wrong to not schedule another review. It seems simple enough for the board members to agree on a date as part of their deliberations. If they are not prepared to set a date on the spot, they should at least call the boy the next day with a date.

- A board is wrong if it fails to follow up its denial with a written letter. It doesnt have to say much; what was unsatisfactory, what the boy can do to fix it, and when his follow-up board of review is scheduled.

 

If a boy has failed to meet the advancement requirements, then the board is obligated to withhold the rank. But they need to do it properly and in a positive manner such that the boy knows exactly where he went wrong, agrees with the decision, and knows what he needs to do to fix it.