Reason for Denying Eagle

[Hunt]

I don't know--I think there is more than a difference in timing between a mistake made by a 16 year old and one made by an almost 18 year old.

Also, I have to vent one of my pet peeves here: a willful, wrongful act does not qualify as a "mistake." Bringing pot and wine back to the camp is not a "mistake," unless he thought it was oregano and grape juice. (mk9750--I know you understand this, since you also referred to transgressions.) Typically, the only true "mistakes" involved in such actions are (1) erroneously believing that the transgression will not be detected and (2) erroneously underestimating the consequences of getting caught. Whenever I hear some wrongdoer refer to his mistake, I immediately discount his apology.

[mk9750]

Hunt, I agree with you 100%%, and I'm sorry if my attempt at being succinct caused my message to be misunderstood.

 

I spent my hight school years in a Catholic seminary, where the old style catechism was still taught. I still remember word for word the definition of sorry: "A firm purpose of amendment". The example that was drilled into us was "you wish you hadn't done it, and will endeavor never to do it again".

 

If in the situation I was involved with, had the Scout been able to convince me he was sorry under the definition of sorrow I use, I could have voted to award the young man Eagle rank. To deny a Scout a rank regardless of his desire to ammend his behavior smacks of just plain unfair, and it is a standard to which I know I could not live, so I certainly couldn't ask a Scout to live to such a standard.

 

Given a significant amount of time to demonstrate his intentions, if the Scout succesfully convinced me he was sorry, not only would I vote yes, but I would celebrate the success. And in this case, I don't think I can imagine how it would matter what age the boy was. My point was that regardless of my views, BSA policies make no provision for a young man to make an error like this close to his 18th birthday, whereas if he were 16, he would have enough time to at least satisfy me that he was living the Oath and the Law.

 

Thanks for comments!

 

Mark

[Scouter4321]

I hope it is okay to just "threadjack" here. I found this thread pertinent to a current situation in the troop I serve.

 

One of our scouts was arrested for something, but being a minor his name was not printed in the paper. He was joined in the offense by a boy who is over 18, so that boy's name was in the paper. As a result, everyone knows that the first boy was the other minor involved.

 

This boy recently had his Eagle project approved and is a few months away from being 18. In our council, Eagle Boards of Review are conducted at the council level. Are we legally allowed to inform the council BOR members of this new information?

 

Scouter4321

[ScoutNut]

What if "everyone" is wrong?

 

At this point it would just be gossip on your part.

 

 

[evmori]

Did he actually commit a crime? Did he confess? If he is guilty, it would make a difference if I was on the board.

 

Eagles are supposed to be the cream of the crop.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Scouter4321]

Scoutnut asked: "What if "everyone" is wrong?

At this point it would just be gossip on your part. "

 

This was my feeling when I asked the question. Although I am pretty sure he has admitted it. I would need to check and make sure. It was a very visible crime and although there were not a lot of details in the paper, it sounded as if the 3 youth involved were caught in the act.

 

It wouldn't be the first time, this youth was in trouble. It wouldn't be the first time he showed unscoutlike behavior. I'm not even sure how he has been passed up the ranks thus far. (I'm new to the troop, my position is SA).

 

So if the committee comes out and asks him if he did it, and he admits it, then would we be within bounds to tell council about it? SHOULD the committee ask him about it?

 

Scouter4321

 

 

[Lisabob]

Scouter4321 asks whether the committee should ask the boy directly about his alleged involvement in some criminal matter.

 

I don't think that the committee should ask point blank. Unless the legal issue of his guilt/innocence is already satisfactorily resolved, you may be putting him in a difficult position. Assuming he is guilty but the case isn't resolved yet, it might be unwise for him to answer your direct question. So now you're potentially asking him to either further risk himself in legal terms, or to evade answering the question, or to lie. And the more serious the accusations, the more important this may become. I don't see this as a winning situation that would achieve any desirable outcome.

 

I do think it would be entirely acceptable to ask serious questions about scout spirit and other parts of the scout oath. Such questions do not need to be phrased in such a way that the boy has to respond to a direct accusation though.

 

Lisa'bob

[John-in-KC]

I agree with Lisa, and I hope one of our attorneys (paging Kahuna) would weigh in.

 

There are potential Fifth Amendment issues, for the boy, and potential slander issues, for the Committe, in exploring "did you do this?"

 

Specialists with their specialized tools and skills are needed here!

[Lynda J]

I have two boys in my troop that have blue cards that are not signed off by the counselor. They are from a Merit Badge College three years ago.

The work was all completed but the counselor never sign that the badge was complete. After making several attempts to reach the counselor with no call backs. I finally checked with one of the other District Commissioners and he told me to sign the cards. Neither were Eagle required. I later found out that none of the boys that took the badge had signed cards.

Had the boy tried to reach the counselor and couldn't. So he was scared and signed the card himself?

But I agree with Hunt. Look at the overall picture. Boy I know that I don't live the Scout Laws 24/7/365. I don't think any of us do.

 

 

[SueM]

>But I agree with Hunt. Look at the overall ?>picture. Boy I know that I don't live the Scout >Laws 24/7/365. I don't think any of us do.

 

Boy...ain't THAT the real TRUTH of it all! Our society in general has become so unforgiving of mistakes that people make...it is sad IMO. It's tough to live up to "perfection" 24/7/52!! Though our job is to try and help boys make better choices in life...they also have to make mistakes sometimes in order to learn...just like we all did and still do every day!

 

I would be tempted to just ask the boy if he ever made a mistake that he totally regreted and would he make the same mistake again in the future!..give him a chance to explain the circumstances if he chooses to but without forcing the issue.

 

Sue M.

 

 

[evmori]

If he is guilty no Eagle. And I see no problem in asking him. A Scout is trustworthy!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

That's just the problem Ed. By asking directly you are putting this person in a real bind. Having made it this far in scouting, one hopes he places some real meaning in the idea that a "scout is trustworthy," despite the fact that he stands suspected of participation in some criminal activity. And he probably has a close relationship with at least some of the adults in the troop since, after all, he has worked with them for years. So if asked, he may very well answer from the heart.

 

Now that may be what the committee wants, but the problem is that in doing so, even if it "feels right," the committee could be putting this young man in further LEGAL difficulty. Most 18 year olds (for that matter, a lot of adults) don't understand the way the judicial system works. If the committee asks directly and he answers directly, he may well be curtailing his legal options. For example: his lawyers may want to advocate for a plea deal of some kind (depending on the actions he is accused of, the nature of evidence against him, what the likely punishment might be, etc.). If he has already openly admitted guilt, this may be much harder for them to do. So he might end up with a harsher punishment as a result. Now, if I had complete faith that our justice system only ever metes out the punishment people deserve, and/or that such punishment is actually effective in rehabilitating people, this wouldn't be such a big concern. However, there are plenty of studies of the juvenile justice system in particular that lead one to the conclusion that it frequently fails to meet these objectives. So if the young man could get a somewhat lighter sentence as part of a plea, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in my view.

 

Now if he's like most other high school aged kids, he probably doesn't have a clue about any of this and thus the committee (adults) must take care not to place him in a legally precarious position without him even being aware of the nature of that position. This is so even/especially if the committee's intentions are good. In fact I'd go so far as to say that adult leaders in this situation have an ethical responsibility not to place this youth in a potentially more harmful situation by asking him directly about matters that have legal implications, about which he may be unaware.

 

Just my 2 cents though.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[Scouter4321]

Wow, what a situation to be in. I know that Lisabob is right and that with the case still unresolved, we should not ask him about it or to require him to admit guilt. On the other hand, we have most of the town knowing he was involved. Certainly, all the boys in the troop know it. I know this can be construed as gossip, but if this boy gets the Eagle rank, that same gossip will ruin the reputation of the troop. "You commit criminal activities and still earn an Eagle Badge at that troop...." And what about the message this will send to the younger boys in the troop?

 

So, if the committee asks him if there is anything he's done that he regrets and he just says "nope!". Is there nothing else they can do?

 

Scouter4321

 

 

[Lisabob]

You mention that he's a few months away from being 18. How many months away from 18 are we talking about here? Can you (or he) request that his Eagle BoR be postponed, pending clarification of these issues?

 

Lisa'bob

[OldGreyEagle]

Scouter4321 I in no way mean to direct this at you as you can see similar things have happened before.

 

Whenever an incident like this comes up there is a hue and cry to seemingly lynch the youth before all the facts are known. Those who want to bounce the boy out of scouting should examine why do they feel such vehemence in their heart and assure its the passion for Scouting that is talking and not a manifestation of holding power over a weaker individual.

 

During the Eagle process, the candidate is to list references, the Council should check those references. One reference is for a Religious reference, I know a parent may also attest to this but then call the parents, ask if the scout is living up to his obligatons in his faith. There is a spot for an Educational reference, call the person, ask about that persons thoughts on the scouts charactor. Employer and two other refrences are listed. Nothing in the rules say they cant be contacted, actually they are supposed to be. Why go rushing to be sure everybody knows everything about this boy.

 

Has he been convicted? Charges filed? Everybody knows he was involved, did you see the movie "The Ox Bow Incident"? I understand how the treamemt this boy receives will be a lesson to the younger scouts, why not let that lesson be that protocol is followed,that one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Why not look on the entire life rather than one short segment?