Downtoearth

Well, now . . . that's more like it pardner:-) No offense taken, nor was any intended. I'm afraid I can't discuss the Nationals though. Even if I had time to follow them, they're blacking out all the games here in good ol' VA. Maybe we'll hook up somewhere else with a more mundane topic, like what kind of pack to get for my son or something.

OK, I can't help myself:-) Calumetz, Amen! Sorry I've allowed myself to be dragged so far afield. I knew the risk when I originally responded to . . . Trevorum, You must be either an Attorney or a politician:-) No insult intended. It's just that you have a unique way of twisting words and restating them in contexts unintended. Rather than continue to elaborate on each point so that I can be sure you've understood my intent, I'll just suggest that you might not be so "baffled" if you'll go back and read the posts carefully. Most of what you've attributed to me as far as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, terrorists, criminals core values, etc., I haven't said. As far as my "narrow" thinking, I'm not sure that I'm guilty of that here, and there's also a good chance that I'm not the only one guilty of it. Although I have observed many who would characterize people who wouldn't adhere to their way of thinking as "narrow". I try not to make such judgments, particularly based on a few forum posts. So as not to further clutte the post with what are becomming unrelated topics, I suggest private e-mail as a more appropriate discussion forum if you still desire to continue. Regards, Dte

Trevorum, First let me say that I completely respect your right to disagree with me, but to be insulted by my beliefs is entirely your choice and certainly not my intent. As with many religions, Bible belieing Christians believe they have the truth. I've become convinced as an adult that the Bible is God's revealed truth. If I can't hold to this belief without being offensive to you, I himbly aplogize, but it doesn't change my belief. I would only hope that you are equally insulted by Jews, Muslims and others who hold that they know the truth, and not confine your reation just to Christians. AS for "core beliefs", I mean beliefs held in common, and I beg to differ that atheists and many others have a common set of beliefs, not the ones with which I've been acquainted at any rate. Usually they tend to select the ones that best suit their lifestyle. If it were otherwise, our jails wouldn't be so crowded and terrorism wouldn't be the predominant world problem that it's become. Having spoken my mind, and not wanting to further fan the flames of contention, I think I'll take the lead from EagerLeader and withdrae from actively partaking in this discussion. (Unless I just can't help myself:-)

Trevorum, Thanks for the welcome. It seems to be moving off topic, but I'll respond briefly just to show I'm capable of such:-) "Some other beliefs" referred to agnostics or those who mix and match religions and haven't developed a well codified set of beliefs. As to theocentrist thinking, I'm afraid I'm guilty. The Bible is clear that Jesus is "the" way, truth and light and that believers are to follow him with all their hearts, souls, strength and minds. Although I didn't mean to imply it in my other post, (and start a theological debate) I do believe these tenets and try my best to live them. I certainly don't suggest that anyone else must believe them in order to be affiliated with BSA however; simply that they adhere to BSA standards.

This is my first post on this, or any other, forum. As a former scout, scout parent and assistant scoutmaster, the topic was to compelling not to contribute. Hope it turns out OK. I also hope that in an effort to be succinct, I don't come off as rude. 1. While I applaude Eager Leader's efforts at quality leadership, she should under no circumstances remain in her leadership position. As a scout parent, I have every right to expect that the leaders of the organization to which I entrust my sons adhere to its standards. This has no relation to the moral qualifier of good, bad or anything else. It's simply the standard, and toying with semantics like "searching" don't change the intent behind the standard. 2. One critical point of contention here that hasn't been explicitly stated is the existence of a set of absolute values, or truth. Those of us who subscribe to the Bible (or another source) as God's absolute authority have a set of core values which are generally clear cut (ie. don't lie). Atheists, or those holding some other beliefs, don't have a common core set of values. They base theirs on a variety of life experiences which differ from person to person. What is right for one might not be right for another. As appearent from this thread, some Bible believers don't necessarily adhere to the set of core beliefs they espouse either, but this doesn't change the fact that the belief system exists. Like the Bible, the language in the scout oath, law and other well documented tenets is very specific about the values upon which the organization is based. The relativism (what's right for me is OK, and what's right for you is OK. It's appropriate for the cubmaster to turn a blind eye., ect.) that I see reflected in many of the posts above seems out of place in an organization with such well documented and clear standards. 3. Rising_Scout took some knocks for a post that was, in essence, quite remarkable for a young man his age. His statement "this nation was founded on morals and values drawn directly from the Bible" was quite accuratel. He diid not claim that the nation was founded on the Bible, as one respondent claimed, but on the values drawn from the Bible. While it is well-known that some of the founding fathers were deists and not necessarily Christians. they did almost universally share a core set of beliefs that, by instruction as well as heritage, was drawn from the Holy Bible. This set of values was never seriously in question as part of our national character until the last 40 years or so. As a history teacher from Virginia, I'll resist the temptation to digress further on the post about the founding fathers' quotes except to say that Thomas Paine hardly qualifies as a founding father. 4. "men who gave us slavery" The Virginia planters at Jamestown, who drew their authority form the crown, gave us slavery. The problem with relativism came during the Constitutional Convention. What was known to be morally wrong was allowed to continue, and even justified, because it was expedient for forming a viable nation. I know it didn't seem succinct, but I tried. I'll close by saying that each American is entitled to hold and to espouse any belief system they like without being discriminated against. Unlike our public political and social landscape, however, BSA is under no obligation to, not should it, compromise the values upon which it was founded in order to accommodate the views or inclusion of those with different belief systems diverging from those values.