Doug343

Bob I am not sure how else to articulate the issue. This posting is about a flow chart distributed by a council that [i believe] misrepresents BSA policy. You have provided advice and opinion about everything but the focus of the posting. I would guess that you have not served in the Scoutmaster role. Your assessment that the Scoutmaster is "just one of the leaders of the scout troop... [he/she] helps with the program" is inaccurate. The Scoutmaster is responsible for the program and image of the Troop. Rank advancement is part (a tool) of the program.

I guess I have not been able to clarify the issue. The flow chart shows an appeal within the unit (troop). Its nice to say that appeals rarely happen and that those involved would consult BSA policy if an appeal occurred. However, this is irrelavant to the issue here. Please note that the individual that distributes the chart at University of Scouting, claims to be Philmont trained and has served as the Council Advancement Chair. The only purpose for the story about the scout and the service project is to provide an example of what the published flow chart allows to happen. Any scenario where the scout does not get forwarded to a board of review by the SM would do. The scout gaining the rank in the instant example is also not the issue, unless you consider his future posture toward the SM. At a higher view point what has happened to the troop, through the use of this published and distibuted chart? While not a problem at my troop at the moment, we have had untrained committee members and CCs in the past. I was glad to have a COR that understood the aims of scouting. I assure you there are many troops out there with CCs that have limited scouting experience. A flow chart like this can distroy a troop. OldGreyEagle: I believe that BSA policy specifies that appeals go to the "next higher level" in order to pull some scouter experience in from the distict on these types of issues. If program decisions made by the scoutmaster are overruled by the CC, the scoutmaster is not serving as the unit leader. I believe if you saw the flow chart you would see my concern. Bob White: I am sorry you feel that I should stick my head in the sand and focus on my own unit. I guess you could say that to any issue in this forum. My understanding is the "Issues and Politics" forum is not for everyone.

Bob I disagree that the SM in the story added to the requirement. The service project was not approved and the SM Conference was not signed off. If I were that SM, the scout spirit requirement would also be unsigned, since I sign that off at the SM conference. The purpose of the story was to illustrate the flow chart. Without the story, no one would read the objections to the flow chart. While I agree that the CC should have contacted the SM, it was not required by the flow chart. The point is, the story result is as it should be - if the flow chart were correct. I appreciate the advice on how a Troop should be run ... but it is the distribution of this flow chart that I am concerned with. It needs to stop. Any suggestions?

I appreciate the comments and suggestions, but I am still concerned about the adoption and distribution of the Advancement Appeal flow chart described in the opening dialog. Since this chart has been approved by the Council Advancement Chair and distibuted at training classes for the past two or more years, it seems like an uphill climb to get a serious evaluation, with regard to BSA policy. I believe this chart is very detrimental to the very scouting values that we are trying to teach. After all, the rank advancement is a tool to teach values. If we suppose what was actually learned by the scout, father and others in the story, it is contrary to scouting values. How can the flow chart be correct? I wish I could post a copy of the flow chart for you to see - is there any way to do that?

For the past two years, instructors, at a Council sponsored "University of Scouting" training day, have distributed a flow chart that depicts an advancement appeal process. The flow chart diagram starts with a Scoutmaster's Conference. The "pass" line goes to the Troop Committee for a Board of Review. The "fail" line also goes to the Troop Committee for appeal. Both Troop Committee actions have subsequent "pass" and "fail" options. The "fail" option proceeds to the District. Some that review the flow chart quickly see little of interest, but as a Scoutmaster, it surely got my attention. Last year I inquired about the origin of the flow chart and researched the published BSA policies. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures (BSA #33088C) seems to be the only guidance for appeals on page 31. I brought my objections to my local DE and District Committee. To my surprise, the next year the same flow chart is being distributed again. I recently summarized my objections to the Council Scout Executive who forwarded my inquiry to the Council Advancement Committee. The Chair of that committee tells me the flow chart is correct. My objections to the flow chart are several. First, I have trouble understanding why anyone would produce and distribute such a document. It is obvious that BSA is not encouraging advancement appeals, so what would motivate a Council to do so. Second, I believe the chart is incorrect. The guidance provided by Advancement Committee, Policies and Procedures (#33088C) clearly notes that the appeal would be to the next higher level. The next level above the unit is noted as the district. The Council Advancement Chair claims that a Scoutmaster decision, that a scout was not ready for advancement, would be appealed to the Troop Committee. If the Scoutmaster and the Troop Committee are both at the Unit level, it seems, this would not be as intended. To illustrate my objections to the flow chart, I made up a situational story and included it with my memo to the Council Scout Executive. The story was as follows: A Tenderfoot Scout requests a Scoutmaster Conference for the rank of 2nd Class. Upon review of the Scout's handbook, the Scoutmaster notes that the required 1 hour service time is not complete. The Scout explains that he picked up trash in his neighborhood, with his Dad, last week. The Scoutmaster commends the Scout for this good deed, but explains that service time must receive prior approval by the Scoutmaster. The reasons for this include safety, youth protection and authorization from property owners. The Scoutmaster explains that the Troop has up- coming service with "Scouting for Food" or the Scout could participate in a project at the Chartering Organization. The Scout returns home, explains to Dad, who contacts the Troop Committee Chair. The Committee Chair, who has meant to attend Scouter Training for some time, does not understand the issue of the service time and schedules a Board of Review. The Scout attends the Board of Review and is awarded the rank of 2nd Class. What has just happened to this Troop? What would be the reaction of the Scoutmaster? What would be the effect on the Scout? This is not a true story, but could very well happen based on the "Boy Scout Advancement Appeal" process flow chart passed out at University of Scouting, this year and last. The response that I received from the Council Advancement Chair does not answer these broader impact questions, but seems to focus on the scout in the story. He explains that the rank would never be taken away from the scout, just because there was a disagreement among the scouters. While I see this point, I also see that the Scoutmaster has lost any authority with the scouts. The Committee Chair is now running the troop program. In the response from the Council Advancement Chair, he tells me that the Boy Scout Advancement Appeal flow chart is correct (and that there is and should be appeals within the Troop/Unit). He then states [about the story] that there is no question that this should not have happened. It would seem, if the flow chart is correct, then the appeal happened as it should in the story. However, when he notes that the scouts father appropriately appealed to the unit level, it makes me wonder what level the Scoutmaster is (as the unit leader). I apologize for the length of this. I would glad to e-mail the Boy Scout Advancement Appeal flow chart to anyone who would like a clearer understanding of the issue. Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.