AKdenldr

We've had success doing recruiting for the tiger den in the spring, with the den starting in the fall. But, we do parent recruiting not boy recruiting. We have a parent interest night in the spring for kinderguarden parents. We have a plan for kids that come, but it is an adult meeting. (We don't need to sell scouting to the boys. It's the parents who need to be sold.) Leadership is identified, hopefully. And a list of interested families is developed. Parent talent forms are filled out with a discussion of how they can all participate. Fall the den starts in earnest. Leader gets training that is available in the fall. If they start with a few meetings and field trips they are well on their way and happy with their progress by Christmas. If not, yuck. Messy den with lack of advancement and participation, Of course, all scouting is local, and your mileage might vary.

Well.... I look at it differently than others responding. Perhaps the WDL was exhausted. Perhaps the parents were disinterested. Perhaps the Pack was a mess. Perhaps it was all three. Or.... perhaps the Pack did everything they could to keep this boy in the program and deliver him to you (imperfect as his advancement is). Perhaps Boy Scouting is exactly what he needs. Modify the ceremony a bit for that boy. Tell him he will be a guest until he is 11 or earns the AOL. Many many posts on these boards about how to recruit Webelos....

Yep, thats one way to think about it, however you might have some third graders still wearing that tiger scarf if they didn't earn their wolf in 2nd grade. Plus, what about the new 3rd grade boy who just joined? No scarf for 9 months? Another way to wrap your mind around it is that this is the den working on that rank. So the 3rd grade den are "Bears" because they are working together on the Bear rank (or 'doing Bear things'). I see the rank awards as awards for fully participating in that year's program. Once they have earned it they are still Bears for a few short months to bask in their accomplishment (and a bit of time for stragglers.). A little awkward, but it works.

adamsdad said, 'I have an ancillary question. With almost all of my wolves patch-ready for B/G dinner; can I start on Bear activities (the other parents will get them finished by April at the latest), or do I need to wait for the start of the school year? I have one new boy that just joined (parents didn't get around to joining earlier!?!), I told him to just start with Bear stuff, since he wouldn't have time to finish Wolf. But another leader told me to let him work on Wolf; sounds like a waste of time to me. Any ideas? ' No, moving up to the next program is around June 1 (talk to your CM about when your pack advances the boys). Now is a great time to add in some fun, do some more electives for arrow points, do some belt loops, service, or extra awards like LNT. Do you have a program in the summer? New boy could do bobcat, belt loops, LNT and other awards. Choice should be left with boy and parents about the Wolf -- doable at home if they are motivated. Have fun.

I've now been in my pack long enough that the younger leaders say, "the tradition in our pack is.....". When it is how I designed things two years ago.... We have a non-traditional pack. We have less pack meetings and more of the boys' experiences are in dens or combine den events. At one point we had our B&G in May because thats when the dens where done with their rank advancements! Is it always the best? no Does it work for our families and our volunteering effort? Yes Do the boys love it? yes The longer I am in scouting, the more I realize how every pack and troop are doing things differently. Do whatever works within the program. Thanks for your service to the boys!

Yup, Been there, done that, and got the t shirt. I sympathize What can we do differently? I think one secret might be educating the parents. At this point with my Webelos (8 of em) I have very good attendance. What has changed? I think the parent's expectation of the program. They now understand the complicated program better than they did the earlier years. And I had them recommit to the program at the end of the Bear year. The new guys joined with the agreement that they would commit to the schedule through summer camp. (Den closes at 8, I've maintained a waiting list the last 2 years). In the bear year I started pushing more of the responsibility to the boys. I have the denner call all the boys to remind them of events. We talk about the things we just did (and how much fun they were) during snack. And I put up photos of the 'wow' stuff we have done. Although I do schedule "make-up" meetings once in the while, I push the majority of the responsibility for missed achievements to the parents. (Increasingly I am trying to have a 5 minute consult with boy and parents together to do this so they all hear the same information.) I've been thinking recently that better parent education at the beginning of scouts would have decreased the problems (but, I was just a learner myself). Anyone else have ideas?

IMHO It takes a while to get the parents to crack open the books and be familiar with them. Then if their first task is something uncomfortable (child protection chat) thats a bit of a turnoff. ditous said "I think I can say with a certain amount of confidence that 50%, if not more of parents don't even PURCHASE a book." Wow. This might help: Our pattern as a Pack had been to send off the new scout parents to get the shirts and books at the scout shop. This meets lingering compliance, some boys with shirts, some with only half of what they need, and late books. Eventually it gets all sorted out. But recently the new tiger den leader did a great thing. She did the errand to the scout shop for all the parents. Got the books and shirts. She even had a volunteer sew on all the required council, pack etc patches. Had them at the first den meeting and had the parents PRESENT them to the boys saying, 'now you are a tiger scout'. How cool is that?

Who says you have to find trash? Who says this has to be hard. Tell the parents the boys need their outdoor gear that meeting. Go for a hike around your meeting place to run off steam. Look for and pick up any trash you find and have a conversation about what scouts do (help the world). Go back inside and do your regular den meeting. Schedule on a real cleanup when the weather is better. Don't sign off for something you didn't do, at least some of the boys will know. You sure don't want to communicate that as a value of scouting. Have fun.

How about 1/2 of the pack program repeats every year. The other half repeats every other year. That gives some variety but not everything is new to volunteers to figure out. We haven't done this by design, but it has been how it worked out. IMHO you could plan out 2 years at a time (as ideas). Fill in dates and volunteers at fall planning conference. If it's been two years since the rocket launch, tree planting, bonfire on the beach, or snow cave building even the Webelos go, if presented right. "Two years ago when the Webelos were Wolves we planted 100 trees for the city -- we had a lot of fun doing that so we thought we'd do that again...." 2 years is a long time to a 9 year old boy.

Great idea. As den leaders we have held tidy-up meetings in different formats. Usually held before B&G and before the last pack event of the school year. We've done open house drop in style at our home on a weekend (Sunday afternoons seem best in our Pack), or a more organized round robin style at the den meetings. We have fun with it and it is not a drill. IMHO in cubs, if a boy is behind it is the adults. How the parents run the home, how they understand the program, how they value the program, when the dental appointments were scheduled, how the DL scheduled the year, etc... With my webs I've started mini den leader conferences (like a SM conference) over their status in achievements (conversations I used to have only with the parents are now held with the boy and parent. -- It's great that they all hear it at the same time.) Have fun with it, AK

Well, my idea hasn't come up yet. As a webelos den leader I would plan a very nice den potluck in my home (or another) to celebrate the end of our cub scouting days together. I would keep it nice and informal. I would invite the SM and troop boys and we would do our own simple bridging ceremony. And perhaps the SM could visit with the parents and boys and become acquainted. Perhaps the troop boys could talk about summer camp and all the adventures of boy scouting. To honor the boys (and keep their scouting hearts intact) I would do this one or 2 weeks in advance of the B&G. I'd ask the troop not to process the applications until after the pack's B&G (just in case there would be any weirdness about awarding AOL or other awards). Then, families could attend B&G in the comfort of their choices. If CM changes mind, boys could all bridge to their choosen troop again. --AK

Interesting discussion. I think having the parents transfer to a Webelos program then yet another boy scout program risks retention. I also think that this forum's vision of what a Webelos den program should be (outside, more boy scout activities, less of the same old activities with pack) is not fully documented in either the Webelos handbook or the Webelos leader material and training. IMHO, Only a quality program and systematic, experienced, leader can lead a den full of boys to reach AOL as it is written in a school year. The other rank awards are, although challenging for their age group, easy to reach by G&B season. National needs to write an advancement program where the Web boys can have success in the wide spectrum of packs and dens. (After all, boys don't pick the packs they attend in the most part it is what is available in their school or town or church community.) If the Web program was only 1 year long, would the boys on average have the maturity to move into Boy Scouts? Now we are talking about boys who might not yet be 10. My thoughts, AK

Okay National, How about this for an idea -- nothing that absolutely relies completely on the parent with no other mechanism for the boy to get it done. Sometimes very hard for den leader to get an active boy the recognition he deserves when the parent won't do the tiny little thing they needed to do with their son. For example Webelos requirement number 1. (read the parent section of the book and sign off). Darn it, 8 months later they still haven't signed the book -- Have they read the section? I don't know and I have to chase down on those signatures. Thanks for asking, -- AK

Thanks Ezra for your time in responding. I'm pretty confident that I have a handle on how to coordinate this. I really like the praypub materials and wish I had done the earlier God and Me program with my boys. look in your email, I'll send you a pm. AK

Thanks Ezra for your time in responding. I'm pretty confident that I have a handle on how to coordinate this. I really like the praypub materials and wish I had done the earlier God and Me program with my boys. look in your email, I'll send you a pm. AK

The long term required Wolf achievements for 2nd grade boys (6 and 7 yo) -- tracking a week of meals and a month of chores? snore. Also, no place, as I remember it, to require or document and reward service in the Wolf book. At the wolf level a little more flexibility for scouts who miss events with their den. Bear categories were extremely difficult to get over to parents -- How about 12, or 15 even, completed achievements in the book earns the bear -- rest to electives. I'd drop the less active Webelos activity pins, and put in more outdoorsy requirements. The Science activity pin seems too difficult in comparison to the other pins. If you're going to require a belt loop for Citizenship -- put the requirements right in the handbook. More outdoorsy requirements. Like the new scout book, if rewrites were done, referring to the scout website would be great. In addition a 2 page spread that was at the back of the book that showed the requirements and referred back to the handbook pages with the full verbage and details (like the scout book) would be great. Little tracks you colored in never really worked in my dens. All in all though, I have seen great growth in my boys with the program as written.

Scoutnut and Bear Dad have it correct. I have 2 in my den of 8 that could bridge Feb and May of 4th grade. My older son's den could have all bridged during 4th grade. Depends when kid enters Kinderguarden. Here the cut off is August 15th. Boys with summer birthdates who are held by parents and enter school a year later (common in our community) and boys with late summer to December birthdates all could earn AOL and bridge during 4th grade. Depends on den program and parental interest of course. Now, if it is a good idea ..... depends on boy / troop. I think perhaps the only place this is clearly written is in Web handbook, not scouting handbook?

We did them last year as a bear / wolf project -- one meeting. Boys cut under supervision and ran the seams under supervision. We made name tags out of leather. It does run about $ 3 each. I don't like the term "brag vest", "patch vest" is more approprate and respectful to the boy's scouting career.

Wow Owl, I just read your rant on the other topic. I have one question, "can I join your pack?". Sounds like you are doing everything right. 3 more things I thought of. Photo albums. I discovered last year that the boys didn't remember the wow stuff when we were in the midst of the not-fun-stuff season (Winter, food pyramid, chore charts). I started making posters of the good stuff (BB guns, building fires, snow caves, games....). Basically slapped some photos on poster board. Very effective for retention and getting over resident camp fears. Same could be done in an album. Website. You have one? Pack T shirt? "How to you spend your family time" type with a list of cool stuff you do on the back. -AK

In our pack after school den meetings are very sucessful. Close to 100% participation. (This however, does have a downside in that the adult volunteer pool is limited.) And, night and weekend activities are much less well attended. (In addition to that, contemplating Boy Scouts with their all evening and weekend programs to these parents seem daunting.) My Webelos have been terrific boy recruiters -- I assume you have implemented a recruiter award for the boys? How about some retention / attendance awards? Also parent to parent recruitment instead of district de to boys has worked well for us. At the Webelos level I have asked for a committment from the new boys and parents that join for an entire year. I can do this because my den is full and I have a waiting list. Can your CO help? Churches since you're the only traditional unit? -- AK

Hello all, Great discussion. I didn't mean to hit a sore spot with you scout leaders. I don't think my pack is entitiled to DCs. It was just an example of a lack of exposure and programming between the Cub and Boy scouting programs here. We have never had a DC in six years of history. I'd like one so my Webs can see and associate with a boy scout, I don't need one to present my program. In the past the gap between what the boys and their parents know and the leap to Boy Scouts has been too wide. I hoped to narrow that gap to increase bridging which is the topic of this discussion. Yes Eagle732, I contribute to my older son's troop experience. (Troop has its own dysfunctions -- so not much help there.) But really, should I have to sign up as an ASM, train, invest more time in scouting (and dilute the success of my Web den) just to get my Webelos more exposure to boy scouts? Nah, not going to happen -- I'll just accept a lower level of bridging. Really, there is only so much one volunteer can do. (And before anyone says it, yes I have considered my older son and his buds but they is a first year scouts with their own struggles and that doesn't meet my purposes listed above.)

Ditto what LisaBob said, it always bothers me when someone on these boards says the goal of cubs is to prepare the boys for boy scouts. What Parent enters a program in 1rst grade whose goal is to prepare them for 6th? IMHO Web to Scout transition won't improve until the boy scout program reaches back and serves the cub scout program. How about some service advancement requirements that mandate that? How about some district / council joint activities? I've been asking for a den chief for my Webelos for 3 months. Still nothing.

Scouter Bruce, We had the same situation last year. WebII boys bridged in March at an elaborate ceremony at the Pack. WebI boys completed their AOL by May. They bridged in the summer to different troops (yes, they met the age requirments). The bridging they did was at a troop meeting. Less elaborate but in some ways more meaningful. If your boy has the social maturity for the big boy pond of Boy Scouting I'd contact the SM of the troop to make arrangements. Otherwise wait a bit. -- AK

Yep to all above, and here are some things that worked for my den... The Bear book has lots of electives for each category. So, if boy misses the knots meetings parents can substitute with something else in that category. A parent who can not fill in at this level either doesn't want to, is not paying attention, or doesn't get it. The main point is A LOT of communication with the parents. Boys need to fully understand also the impact of missing what is done in the den. A den advancement poster / attendance roster can really help with this. In my limited experience, some parents rise to the occasion with deadlines (last minute -- very frustrating to me as a den leader). Some parents have done well with a 1 page sheet that shows all the achievements and electives. I use the beartrax spreadsheet for this. I've scheduled open house type meetings prior to B&G to catch up on reguirements missed. This covers illnesses, family travel, late joiners, and alternative choices ..... to a point. I've just started "den leader conferences" with my WebI boys. Parent and boy -- about 5 minutes long. Seems to be working with my families, boy and parent hearing the same thing at the same time. My denner (rotates monthly) calls every boy to remind them of each activity. This has reduced the "I forgot there was a meeting". Also, I've had some success adding into my den schedule some things that are earned entirely in the den that are smaller than the badges of rank. (LNT, belt loops, pins). So the boys are recognized more often. Your mileage may vary -- AK

Local arrow hobbiest makes arrows for us for $ 6. Using some leather lacing, leather scraps, and gromets I made some nice awards. Printed a certificate detailing the boy's scouting career in terms of the colors on the arrow. Boy's name and pack number, date of award, were written between the feathers. Arrow was ready to hang at home (from the lacing.) Paint, sealant, and all came to $8 / arrow. Cheaper next time when I can use the paint purchased earlier. Parents could mount the arrow on their own if they wished.