dfscott

We charge $70/year, plus $15 for campouts to cover food. Currently, myself and the ASMs are eating the cost of fuel, and the campsites. We're trying to get them to raise the amount so it's not coming out of our pockets, but they're worried we'll get too much pushback from the families.

Thanks all. All good points and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one here. I also just discovered that the Troop Committee member has been trying to hold off-the-record meetings with the other ASMs to discuss "program issues" and activities. Luckily one of the other ASMs let me know, I forwarded to the COR, who let them know that these sorts of divisive meetings were not appropriate. Things have calmed down and the two adults have agreed to be on probation for 6 months. During that period they are to have no interactions with each others sons and will not yell at any of the boys. Unfortunately, I think that they will be unable to successfully complete it. My other ASM, who is also OA Troop Advisor, is in the process of freeing up his schedule so that he can participate more. I don't have any confidence that my other two will be more available, but we'll see. Summer camp is in two weeks, so it will be interesting to see how that goes.

I've got a difficult situation that I'm trying to resolve (I'm the SM). The COR and CC are not sure what the best course of action is either. This is long, so I apologize in advance. We are a relatively new troop - going on our 3rd year, just added 8 Webs last week from our feeder Pack to bring our numbers up to 22. Much of our adult leaders and Troop Committee have come from the feeder, so they tend to have a "Cub Scout" mentality that I'm working to break them from. Our last campout was the first one for some new scouts that just crossed over -- we had three new scouts camping with three of our experienced scouts. As often happens with new scouts, one of them (let's call him "H") was very lazy and didn't want to do anything. "H" just complained about everything, refused to pitch in, and drove the other scouts crazy. My experience with scouts like this is that the boys often fix this themselves -- either they let him know they won't put up with and he realizes that he needs to pull his weight, or he goes home crying that everyone is mean to him and eventually drops. Unfortunately, my ASM is still having trouble with youth-led and tends to stick his nose in like a drill sergeant when things go bad. I usually reel him in, but it irks him and he sometimes barks at the boys. He has known this particular scout for a while (he was in the same den as the ASMs son), so there is some history here. So, Sunday morning rolls around and we're packing up in the rain. H's dad (who is a Troop Committee member) shows up (he wasn't camping, but was helping with transportation). He walks into the adult campsite and my ASM and he get into it. They are always sniping at each other (they have a history -- they were co-Den leaders in the pack and are both hotheads, and they just don't like each other). The details are unimportant, but I eventually talked them down. The SPL was there, but no other scouts. However, the Committee member was smoldering at that point. A few minutes later, we're packing up in the parking lot. The ASM and the Committee member start talking about 20 feet away from where I am with the boys at the trailer. I realize that it's getting heated, but I'm hoping that cooler heads will prevail and try to distract the boys with packing. Suddenly voices are raised and the boys start looking over there and I realize it's not stopping. By the time I get over there, it's feeling like it's going to get physical. I stand between them, trying to break it up, telling them that they can't do this in front of the boys. However, they ignore me, and keep yelling threats at each other, such as "I'll get you kicked out" and "I'm going to the council to report this", etc. After 2-3 minutes, I finally get them apart. The Committee member loaded in his scouts and left, and we continued packing and left. The COR (who is also my wife) has has called a meeting tomorrow night to discuss this issue and what to do about it. She has requested that the Committee Chair, myself, and the two adults involved attend. However, the Committee member has refused to attend. So, at this point, we are trying to determine what to do. The "easy" fix is to remove both adults from all direct contact with the scouts. However, this ASM is the only one who will reliably camp. If he leaves, it's likely that we will have to greatly cut back on our outings. A few weeks back he got called into work over the weekend -- I begged for someone else to step in, but no one stepped up. We ended up having to cancel the camping trip. The CC wants to put both of them on probation for 6 months -- any outburst or confrontation with an adult or youth will result in expulsion from the Troop. I'm not asking for solutions to this problem -- just curious if others have experienced similar issues, how bad it gotten, and opinions on whether we have any liability issues that we might not be aware of.

Hey All- Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I thought I'd provide an update. I ran into our DE at a scout event and tried to pin her down on it. She did some admirable bobbing and weaving, but eventually it came to "BSA has no problems with JW -- it's the other way around, so you need to discuss with the family and make sure they understand what is required." So, our CC sat down with the boy's mom (not deliberately excluding dad -- he just doesn't speak much English). She considers her family as "not particularly devout" and doesn't have any problems with her son saying the Pledge. It was something she told him long ago and she didn't even remember saying it. In the meantime, he's been part of our flag ceremonies, and also stands and salutes the flag while saying the pledge. My son goes to the same school (where they also say the pledge) and he says he does it there as well. Looking at the joining requirements, it says: "Repeat the Pledge of Allegiance." It doesn't say "swear fealty" or anything like that. It doesn't even say "Repeat the Pledge of Allegiance and agree to follow it." (although many may say that is implied). So, for now, I've given him his Scout Badge. I didn't want him to be the only boy in the troop without one. When we get to Tenderfoot, we'll see where it stands (since that's when you agree to follow the Oath and Law). Thanks, everyone, for all the feedback and discussion.

Reporting in: DE response was "Hmmm.... that's a tricky one. Let me check and I'll get back to you." Still waiting... In other news, he joined us for our hike this weekend and had a great time -- fit in with the boys immediately.

I just had a new scout join the troop this week. While one of the ASM's was discussing Scout Badge requirements with him, the subject of the Pledge of Allegiance came up, and he stated that he wasn't allowed to say the Pledge. I have heard that Jehovah's Witnesses are not supposed to be join Boy Scouts due to this fact, but I always assumed that it was on the JW side, not the BSA side. Being in downtown Atlanta, our Troop is pretty liberal -- many of our boys have same-sex parents. So, my thoughts are: if his family doesn't have a problem with it, I don't either. However, I could see it making it difficult to live up to the Scout Oath and some other things that are flag-related, so when SMC time comes, it seems like I'd be walking a fine line. But he's very excited about joining, so I don't want to burst his bubble. Anyone else ever run into this?

I'd love to get either or both of those syllabuses (syllabi?), but the message board won't let me send you a PM (says I'm "not authorized").

I like this idea, but we're talking about 6 one-hour meetings, a day hike, and an overnight campout. It's hard enough to get them to come to a day-long training on a Saturday, much less schedule 8 things that they need to attend in addition to regular scout stuff. I'll have to see if maybe there's a way to condense then material without diluting it too much.

Well, there is audio, but you're right -- no video.

Hi -- responded to your welcome post. I personally have never been to Scoutland, but I have been told that it is definitely oriented more towards Cub Scouts than Boy Scouts, so it sounds like it is a good fit (are you going with your Bear or your Webelos?)

Hi and Welcome! I'm a Atlanta Scouter (Scoutmaster and father of a Second Class Boy Scout and a Bear), but our Troop elected to head to your neighborhood for Summer Camp at Camp Rainey Mountain -- our boys loved it! I'll warn you that they've just upgraded the forum software and it's still a little squirrely, so be patient (and I suggest composing your posts in email/notepad and then cutting and pasting). This is a very helpful group and I've learned a lot. Feel free to ask anything!

Yeah, I used that cirriculum and and it was boring. It's ironic that while it talks about not standing up and lecturing, that's what I ended up doing! And having the SPL deliver it was a disaster -- it's too much material for me to handle, much less a kid. The cookie game didn't work for me, either, but for a different reason. They immediately started asking each other "do you want your cookie?" and then would ask me if it was ok. No one tried to be sneaky. Anyway, here are links to the 80s videos for anyone interested -- I like the format (seems easier for the boys to understand), but I can't find #4. The #4 I have there is from another (also incomplete) set:

At my first youth leadership training, I used the "official" ILST tools. It was fine, but even with the games mixed in, it still felt a bit stiff. So, we've just elected a new slate of youth leaders, and the thought of having them slog through the ILST powerpoint again is painful. I was hoping that there may be some other tools that people have had success with that will get them moving. I found some old training videos from the 80's on youtube that seemed a little more interesting (they boys are always up for watching something), but I don't have the complete set. Anyone have any ideas?

We've been using etrailtoeagle.com. Most of our scouts are young and the parents really like the report subscriptions that shows them which requirements are needed for the next rank. It's pretty cheap (~$20/year) and doesn't have all the bells and whistles of a lot of the others, but it does the job for our small troop. May have to look troopwebhost -- haven't heard of that but sounds similar...

So, for the curious: here's the result: ASM and I discussed it at summer camp. While he understood what I was getting at, he still said that he didn't think the boys were old enough to make these sorts of decisions (our boys ages range from 10-14, with most being 11 or 12). While I agree that they don't have the experience an more established troop might, they have been doing this for a year and need to start learning. He said we'd have to "agree to disagree". I took that as "I'm not happy, but I'll deal with it." Unfortunately, when we announced the new patrols at the Court of Honor, he exploded on me immediately afterwards (even before the parents had left). He said he told me that he wanted his son in that patrol and I had to make it happen. He said that *his* son had not asked to be in that patrol (untrue) and that I was showing favoritism by putting *my* son in the other patrol (also untrue - my son requested it). I tried to get him to discuss it somewhere else, but he wouldn't. Unfortunately, I got a little upset (as did my other ASM, who rushed to defend me). So while I didn't raise my voice or anything, I did say that "if you don't buy into the idea of a boy-led troop, maybe you need to find another troop." (Argh! I wish I could take it back!) He stormed out. I followed up with a call, which he ignored. Then I sent an e-mail letting him know that I handled it poorly and should've been more clear about how it was doing things. (Wish I'd seen 2CubDads post before.) I also told him that although I still believed in how the patrols were divided, I would move his son to the other patrol if he asked me to. He did not respond. Last night was our first Troop Meeting after the incident. Both he and his son showed up, but neither one in uniform (which never happens). He refused to talk to me during the meeting (understandable since there were lots of adults and scouters around) but told me that he needs more time to reflect before deciding what to do.

It's supposed to mean that you didn't prove you were a human by entering the write captcha code, but it doesn't even ask you for one (I'm having the same trouble).

I mentioned in another post that my current single-patrol troop was begging to split into two patrols (this was the boys wanting to split). I told them that once we hit 12 total, they could split. Well, that time has come. So, I wrestled with the best way to do it. I have a few "misfits", so I didn't want to just put them in a room and have them group with their friends for fear of having 10 guys in one corner and two lost sheep leftover feeling like the last kid picked for kickball. I finally found a method online that let the boys have most of the input and me balance the numbers. I let each boy write down 3 friends to be with. Then, I collected the sheets and paired boys that picked each other. Once that was done, I added boys where only one had picked one already in the patrol. Then, I added any boys that I knew were already antagonistic towards each other to opposite patrols. What I ended up with was not what I expected, but it was a product of the boys' input. What I'm worried about is that during this process, one of my ASMs (whose boy is in the Troop) shot me an email saying, "I think we need A, B, C, & D together in one patrol, and then the other patrol is X, Y, and Z -- I don't care where the other ones are. I feel that it would be in the best long-term interest of the troop." A, B, C, and D are my "serious" scouts (one is my son and another is his son), while X, Y, and Z are the popular, but more "active" boys (read: disruptive). Of course, it didn't come out that way at all when I finished -- some of the "serious" scouts wanted to be with what they saw as the "fun" boys, and vice versa. I showed the results to the TCC and she felt like it was a good mix between the patrols. But the real rub is that my ASM's son chose to be with the "non-serious" scouts, and he is now asking me to "fudge" the patrol makeup to put his son with the serious group. I see big problems with this -- his son is going to be with a bunch of boys that a) he doesn't want to be with and b) don't want to be with him. At best, he will be unhappy and/or disruptive, and at worst, it could drive him away from scouting. And it feels a little in conflict with the 1st Law of Scouting. The flip side is that I end up with a PO'ed parent/ASM. My TC will back me on this, but I don't want to drive away a dedicated leader. Thoughts?

Update: sorry for necro'ing the thread, but I thought a report was in order. We divided into two patrols last night, having hit 13 scouts. I asked the boys if they wanted to have an SPL this time or just let the PLs rotate troop duties. Most of the boys voted to have one, with only a couple (the current SPL and PL) voting that it wasn't needed. (Looks like everyone will have to learn from experience.) Two guys have stepped up to run for the position - one is the oldest boy in the troop, but he has a lot of sports and work commitments, and the other is a very popular Webelos cross-over(!) I'm resisting the urge to meddle, so I'm just going to explain the responsibilities (particularly attendance and outside work), get a verbal commitment, and then let them vote.

Our chartering org is very tight on space. As a result, most of the camping gear ends up getting stored at my (the Scoutmaster's) house. My son (who is one of the patrol leaders), mentioned that because of that, I always end up checking everything in, and he ends up washing things that weren't properly washed. He ended up appointing a Patrol QM to keep up with the cookbox, and then we had our Troop QM keep up with Stoves, propane, lanterns, etc. But this means stuff is scattered all over, and we have to deal with a lot of craziness if someone can't make a trip. We do have a troop trailer, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with leaving everything in there. So, how do you bigger troops handle gear? Do patrols have their own gear, and then check out certain items from the Troop QM? Or is everything kept at the Troop level, but stored by patrol? We're at one patrols, moving to two when the Webelos cross over.

Hey all -- OP here reporting back. Thanks for all the feedback. Since elections, we've had two more boys join and are expecting at least 2 more next month, taking our total to 12. Several of the boys have expressed wanting to split into two patrols, for competitive reasons as much as anything, and I'm encouraging that. With two patrols, I feel that we'll get better troop games and maintain patrol identity (since right now I'm just splitting the troop in half to play games). I'm trying to provide more structure tools (agenda templates, "cheat sheets") for the boys, both in PLCs as well as Troop Meetings, and that seems to be helping. My biggest problem right now is the chaos of meetings. I know that everyone says that "if a boy-led Troop Meeting isn't chaotic, you're not doing it right", but there are a few areas where I draw the line, specifically Flag Ceremonies and Closing Vespers. Boys acting up during these times when respect is due rubs me the wrong way, and the other adults are obviously not happy about it as well. I feel like they're trying to "test" the discipline policy to see if I really will call their parents to come get them. I haven't yet, but I think I may have to soon just to show I'm serious. Ah well, growing pains are always fun...

Question for the winter vets: We're doing our first winter campout this weekend. We live in GA so it's only getting down to around freezing, but for us southerners, that's cold. Our site has 9-bunk 3-sided "cabins" as well as an area for tents. So, is it warmer in a 2-man tent with a buddy or does a patrols' worth of body heat counteract the lack of a 4th cabin wall?

It is a small troop - only 1 patrol. However, we did start with only a PL and an APL. The PL got overwhelmed with the responsibilities of running the troop as well as running the patrol. I gave him a choice of running the troop meetings or the patrol meetings and letting the APL take over the other. He asked if he could run the Troop meetings and let the APL do all planning for patrol advancement, campouts, etc. Are you suggesting that I just skip the idea of Troop meetings and make everything patrol meetings? I'm a little worried that the patrol will fall apart when some of the less motivated boys take the reins, but maybe that's a good way for the boys to see who is good at leading and who is not (if I can survive the wrath of the parents).

I'm the SM of a 6 month old small (and young!) troop. Most things are going well, with all the boys having earned their Tenderfoot and well on their way to 2nd class (I should probably mention that the Troop Committee is all about FCFY, but not quite as sold on "boy-led" as I am). But now we're coming up on our first elections, and no one seems to want to run for anything. The 12yo SPL, who I felt was overwhelmed had originally said he wanted to step back and be Historian. But now he'd like to run again (not sure if that's his desire or his dad's, who is an ASM). My 11yo son was elected PL and while he originally wanted to step up to SPL, now feels like he's found his comfort zone as PL, and is planning advancement activities, both in Troop meetings and in outings, so I don't want to push him. The appointed positions, QM, Historian, Webmaster, are all going pretty well, except that the Scribe is terrible (his dad is a newspaper reporter, so I'm wondering if he was pressed into something he wasn't really interested in). He shows up late to everything, unprepared, and takes poor notes even when prompted. But no one has expressed any desire about the positions. When asked, I get "sure, I can do that". "But do you *want* to" "(shrug)" I'm tempted to just cancel elections and just fix the broken appointments, but I'm afraid the parents of the other boys will scream "Nepotism!" Thoughts?

Thanks again, everyone. I actually have the merit badge (since he earned it a while back), so I may go ahead and give him the merit badge so he can put it on his sash and not feel "weird". And then give him the card. The badges, I'll get this weekend and I'll just pin them on this time (or maybe use the plastic holders -- I'm on the fence about those) and give them the card as well.