desertrat77

It seems the council is out of touch with reality...unfortunately, there are others adopting the same "strategy."

After long consideration, I've written my last FOS check. From now on any time or treasure I donate, as humble as it may be, will be in support of local units only.

Regions + Areas = Mutual Admiration Societies (MAS) MAS = zero value to units

Skeptic, well said. I myself have certainly engaged in some of these behaviors. Yes, I'd say there is a dose of schadenfreude running through these discussions. I'd chalk it up to this: many of us have been loyal to scouting for years. Decades for some. We've done our best to provide a program worthy of the founder's original vision. We've done this despite obstacles put before us by pros, mostly above the DE level, and vols that sit on high level boards. I don't think the upper management of the BSA has been as loyal. Not as loyal as the unit level folks. Despite feedback from the field, years of negative media attention, huge financial set backs, and plummeting membership, they have persisted in their mismanagement of our once great organization. So the chickens have come home to roost. The initiatives from this national meeting are about 15 years too late. As for the foxes, I think their efforts have value. Discussion generated is robust, and it does seem therapeutic. And apparently some of our opinions have been observed by upper management. I'm a skeptic myself...I rather doubt our opinions will change much. They haven't listened to us for years--why would they begin now? But at least we'll have our say.

@Cburkhardt, thank you for the insights The initiatives are sound but a phrase keeps ringing through my head: "Too little, too late."

Raising dues last year was a deal breaker for many. Folks in the field didn't like it and said so. Too many financially struggling families. National's response: "Sell more popcorn." Those three words from a "commissioned BSA professional" will go down in scouting history, akin to the equally infamous "Let them eat cake." If the BSA was a sinking ship, the pros in Irving would be figuring out ways to charge people for PFDs and seats in lifeboats, how to bring more seawater aboard, and as the final waters swept across the deck, they'd present each other medals for a job well done.

Perhaps I missed it.... Are unique BSA trademarks up for liquidation as well? How much is the trademark "Eagle Scout" worth? http://licensingbsa.org/trademarks/

I don't know John, but in the middle of the night, I heard a thumping sound from my footlocker of scouting artifacts...there's at least one red beret in there for sure....

Carebear, I'm sure you recall those red berets made great pot holders, especially when frying bacon in an aluminum Trail Chef skillet. As for what the future holds, I'm of the opinion "so let it be." Let's meet our obligations in a scout-like manner, and then relaunch a program that resembles something Baden Powell and Green Bar Bill would recognize.

@Cburkhardt, thank your for your insights...much to ponder as I begin my evening walk. Regarding council liability: it struck me early on that National's attempt to shield the councils was probably a very small obstacle to overcome. As you mentioned, everything will be on the table, including the last basketry kit.

@TimB, I'm completely tracking with your concerns. In 2018, I worked non-stop to put a crew together for Philmont. Sparing all of the details, we had 3 different crew number changes over time (long story), I went from associate advisor, to advisor, back to associate. We had the minimum crew permitted of adults and scouts from two different councils, three units. All manner of heroic planning and such...then we know how it ended. Season burned out two days from getting on the road. A few thoughts: - I'm familiar with the itinerary y'all selected. As others have mentioned, it's a good one, and not that strenuous. The key thing Philmont emphasizes: the youth may struggle at first if they didn't train, but if they stick with it, they'll adjust quickly. However, adults that arrive in poor shape will usually not be so fortunate. Everything works against them. - If a scout or an adult leaves the trail, there are two scenarios: -- Injury or illness that can be treated in a couple days: Philmont ensures the individual receives medical treatment and is returned to the crew. -- Can't (medical) or won't (motivation) rejoin their crew: Philmont policy is for the individual to leave Philmont property as soon as possible--usually in the next 24 -48 hours. There are no provisions for allowing the individual to remain in base camp until the crew returns (no volunteer program, etc.). Adults departing early are advised by the logistics staff re shuttle, flight selection, etc. If a minor is departing early, parents are contacted by Philmont logistics staff. The parent must then buy a plane ticket, send the staffer the flight information, sign and return permission forms, pay for a shuttle, etc. Youth returning home will be under the supervision of Philmont staff, following YPT, from the time they leave the trail till they board the aircraft. If this seems like a giant hassle--logistically, financially, emotionally--it is. Especially if the individual simply decides to quit on the trail. It's important that parents and youth understand the consequences of quitting (no refund, no Arrowhead patch). Medical removal from the trail is another matter. Yes, unfortunately they have to go home too, but if they completed their Philmont conservation project before the injury, they can at least still receive the Arrowhead patch. -- NOTE: if a youth leaves the trail, an adult from the crew does not have to accompany the youth. All youth, whether returning to the trail or awaiting travel to go home, live in infirmary tent center under the strict supervision of the medical staff. And by strict, I mean strict. Their activities will be monitored every minute. Up at 5 AM to scrub the showers and toilets, mass movement to meals, no lying around the tents, etc. No ambling around base camp. Adults going home or under treatment stay in the infirmary tent city as well (separate tent area from youth). Though they have more freedom of movement, they still have to sign in/out, do work details, go to bed at curfew etc. On the day of departure, youth are supervised by two logistics staffers from infirmary tent center to the airport. Staff will coordinate airline check in, security, and stay at the boarding gate until the airline confirms the aircraft has taken off and is officially enroute. - A fellow swim team parent passed this gem to me several years ago: "We can't pour our motivation into our kids' brains and hearts--they have to generate their own." I think this is true for Philmont as well. We provide the training, encouragement, and the best personal example possible. Then it's up to them. It's great that the vast majority will figure it out and complete the trek. Please keep us posted--I wish you all the very best!

Well said; here is a small cut/paste from the article regarding the Scoutmaster training at the U of Virginia: "Specific topics of study were; a Local Organization and its Relation to the Community, Benefits of Scout Work for Boys, Organization and Leadership, the American Boy and His Relation to Family Life, Scout problems and Country Life, and Scout Efficiency and its Relation to Citizenship. Special lectures and demonstrations were also given by experts in the fields of Local Bird and Animal Life, Forestry and Conservation, Local Rock and Geographical Formations, Indoor and Outdoor Programs for Scout Work, Knot Tying, First Aid and Bandaging, Fire Building, Tracking, and Camp Management." https://historyofscoutingva.wordpress.com/2018/12/31/scout-mastership-at-the-university-of-virginia/

I agree! There are two hardworking, thoroughly efficient, long-tenured ladies that are the go-to people on the administrative side of our council office. They get things done right the first time, on time, and know BSA policy to the letter. I don't know their salaries or hourly wage, but we can be sure it isn't much. To me, their labors are worth more to scouting than what any commissioned pro brings (above the DE level).

I agree, but the die was cast decades ago. Changing WB from outdoor skills to White Stag "what's your favorite color," the Improved Scouting Program, First Class in Record Time...these initiatives were launched by people who had no appreciation for what scouting is all about. Scouting is largely run by people who would rather be in the conference room than by the campfire.

The dues increase last fall--and its ham-fisted implementation--was an eye-opener for many unit level scouters and parents. It boils down to "What value am I getting for my dollar?" I think the common answer is "not much." In summary, this is the perfect storm: the loss of membership, financial hemorrhage, bankruptcy, legal fees, budget tricks like mortgaging Philmont and not telling the oversight committee, The Virus, unemployment, local/national/world events, and the list goes on. Crisis can bring clarity. Many people are realizing that when it comes to the resources that are expended at council and National levels, the juice isn't often worth the squeeze. Those dollars are gone and there will be even less in the future. So be it. After the storm, we can take stock of what's left and rebuild scouting into an organization that is unit focused, mindful of what the average family is going through, and has a smaller administrative footprint. Scouting started with a handbook and thousands of youth that wanted to explore the outdoors. They wore old clothes, slept in blankets, and cooked over a fire. Scouting has strayed light years away from that original vision and enthusiasm. Our humble origins are ultimately what scouting is really all about.

Well said, @Eagle94-A1. I'm seeing the same dynamics in my part of the BSA. As I've mentioned before, I was an ISP scout (unwillingly!), red beret and all, and the dreadful program elements you mentioned did occur. I was fortunate that despite being a military brat, the four troops I was in all had traditional programs (camping one weekend a month, twice in December, summer camp and high adventure) and emphasized the old school patrol method. I can't think of any peers from those years that took the easy/ISP way to Eagle. Everyone was experienced in scout outdoor skills and had tenure as an SPL in troops that used the patrol method. But the others were around. Alas, despite Green Bar Bill's best efforts, the pro-ISP crowd has realized their dream. It's a couple decades later than they envisioned, but if any of them are still around, I'm sure they would applaud what passes for program in the BSA today.

Part II: Let's talk turkey: is the BSA an organization that values outdoor adventure or isn't it? Scratch the surface--right below the rah-rah school talks, glossy summer camp flyers, and our high adventure base advertising--there are very few units that have an outdoor program that resembles anything that Baden Powell or Green Bar Bill would recognize. Or anything that would inspire an outdoor-minded boy or girl to join. Or stay. If the BSA is primarily concerned with "character building" via constant adult supervision, virtual meetings, badge collection, backyard camping and merit badge fairs, let's drop the pretense of adventure entirely and advertise truthfully. Every day, there is someone trying to kick dirt over the last, glowing ember of the campfire.

These National committees, and many at council level, operate in a vacuum. As stated earlier, there are no organizational charts, no rosters, no contact info. The committee members solicit minimal input from the field at large (but perhaps from select like-minded sources), and when a poll is conducted, it is almost always ignored. Yet these committees make recommendations and decisions that impact the entire BSA, publish no minutes, and offer no explanation for their actions. And I'd go so far as to say that until recently, said committee members experience no accountability for their actions. Most egregious of all, no matter how unreasonable and poorly implemented many of these decision have been, National is impervious to feedback from the field. National, and some councils, seem to be operating in a different BSA than those adults serving in packs, troops, crews, and ships.

@ScouterStL, welcome to Scouter.com!

I had a four-year gap in scouting, from the time I aged out in 81 till I signed on as an ASM and went to Scout Leader Basic Training (SLBT) in 85. Quite a difference in culture. It was obvious the BSA no longer valued the independent-minded, outdoor-oriented scouter. My training course turned into a 3-weekend grudge match between cadre and those with prior scouting experience. Cadre downplayed the outdoors, patrol method and unit scouting as a whole. The message was a) "We district and council scouters know best" and b) "Do your quaint troop stuff if you must, but real scouting happens at the district and council level." It didn't sit well with some of us. This mindset has been with us in one form or another ever since.

@Canoeon, welcome to Scouter.com!

Indeed, the ISP was the beginning of the end of scouting. There have been a few gallant attempts to turn the tide, but not enough save the movement. There are too many non-outdoors, risk-averse folks in the BSA who won't be satisfied until every scout, from 5 - 20 years of age, is wearing Tiger Cub Orange and making popsicle stick art, indoors, under the direction of two adults. And folks still wonder why membership is declining.

@CaroltheArky, welcome to Scouter.com!

I think this is not only a BSA issue, but a societal one as well. Information is sent, yet there is no feedback from the recipient whatsoever. No courtesy of a return email, text or phone call. Yet these are usually the same parents that are glued to their mobile phones. They spend a lot of time communicating, but not with the scout leaders that are trying to provide programming for their kids. Tell me to jump in a lake, get lost, etc., but at least send a reply!

@swilliams, thank you for all you are doing for scouting. The posts previous to mine are right on the money: the scouts should figure things out for themselves and develop self motivation. Even if advancement numbers don't meet "the metric" that's okay. The few scouts that are recognized at the court of honor will make the event all the more special. They showed initiative, which may in turn inspire some of their peers sitting in the audience. As a scout who spent a solid year stalled out at Tenderfoot, I recall seeing a JASM being presented his Eagle medal. The ceremony wasn't much by today's standards. The medal was pinned on at the end of a normally scheduled troop court of honor. They lowered the lights, had a few special words, pinned the Eagle, presented Mom her pin (no mentor or dad pins back then), round of applause, let's have some cake, service patrol put away the chairs, etc. Five minutes tops, but it was powerful and made quite an impression on me. I respected this JASM, so I decided the next day to crack the spine on my scout handbook and actually read it. It generated a new perspective for me.