desertrat77

Nick, your Philmont Arrowhead patch alone distinguishes you from the crowd...finishing a trek is quite an accomplishment. Food for thought. PS I was in error about the belt; I assumed it was the traditional belt with the brass buckle. Good catch, would recommend buying a new one.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Nick, Good questions! - MB sash: by all means yes - Belt: wear your Philmont belt with pride - Shoes: it's a formal ocassion, so formal shoes are in order - Leave the pins at home - Old uniform is no probem...just make sure it's clean, dry and serviceable, ironing is also good...no need to buy a new one...an old one that's well taken care of is fine - Philmont patch: superb, wear it too Though you didn't ask but just a thought: some scouts like tucking their OA sash over their belt when they are wearing their MB sash. While this is personal preference, for the Eagle board, I submit that less is more, leave the OA sash at home...if you are an OA member, your lodge flap or pocket arrow/ribbon lets the board members know you are a proud member. Best wishes!

Skeptic, I think a couple meaningful congrats letters are fine. But the trend these days is to generate a huge pile of letters from any person or agency that is inclined to send one to the new Eagle. Volume, volume, volume. And at the risk of being impolite, it's just plain tacky to ask for an Eagle congrats letter from someone or someplace that the Eagle has no connection with. There's a line between recognizing the new Eagle for a job well done, and a coronation. Many Eagle ceremonies these days are coronations. In truth, the Eagle still has a full life ahead of him and plenty of opportunities to be recognized for outstanding accomplishments. Eagle is the beginning of the journey of life, not the end. As a career military guy, I've seen promotion ceremonies for senior ranking officers and enlisted that are far more subdued than Eagle ceremonies I've been to. A few good words, pin on the new rank, a round of applause, a word from the promotee, and please join us for some cake in the back of the room. And then get back to work. The letters: if the Eagle is thinking of joining the Marines, then a USMC congrats letter is in order. But if he has no military inclination, but his dear mom is pushing for congrats letters from all five branches of the military, then it's a bit much. The most meaningful Eagle ceremonies I've been to are the ones that were at the end of a normal troop court of honor. Sure, a little more pomp and circumstance, but just the right amount. Means alot to the Tenderfoot scout and his mom and dad to see it. Ties it in to the troop too, because we know no Eagle earns the rank alone.

Thanks CA Scouter, appreciate the info and glad to hear the camp is still there in some form!

dcsimmons, you make very good points. If the small troop follows your advice, they can't help but grow

Great inputs! Stuff to consider but hard to quantify: when you walk the paths, does it seem like scout camp? Is there a balance between creature comfort and a wilderness experience? Are the scouts thrilled to be part of the camp's history? Does the staff knock itself out to serve the campers? Are adult campers treated with respect by the staff? What is the scout satisfaction rating of the mess hall? I know some of these questions are kinda mumbo jumbo. And in the era of summer camps striving to bring in more campers by offering a ton of MBs (the citizenship series at camp, are you kidding?), putting campers in permanent structures, etc., I know my questions may seem even more silly. Scouting memories that last a lifetime are achieved by sharing outdoor experiences, and overcoming challenges (Lifesaving MB, anyone?) with your fellow scouts. The creature comforts are fine for the moment but there's little satisfaction in their memory for the long haul.

BeaverCarl, This is a fascinating topic, thanks for bringing it up. About 30 years ago, I volunteered at a cub day camp that was held at an old scout camp on the edge of Sacramento. The city had grown around this camp, and it must have been a fraction of it's original size. No one camped there any more, it was just used for day activities. But there were still old trees and buildings. I wondered about the history of the camp; I don't recall it's name, unfortunately. So many camps are closing. Lots of memories in each. I'm not aware of any consolidated research for CA camps. It could be broadened to a nation-wide guide. Again, very intriguing subject. I hope other folks post their comments on the subject. Thanks, Desertrat77

Kahuna, though I was too young to attend, I appreciate you sharing the memories. We could benefit here from more of these great scouting stories. The debates are productive, but the details you shared are what scouting is all about.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Six is small, but there may be a reason for it. Often a small troop exists because that's what the SM feels comfortable leading...they have a good or okay program, but not great. Just enough to plug along and go camping once in awhile. Advancement in a small troop is usually stagnant, it seems.

Military or not, the SM hasn't got the right disposition for the job. There are civilian scouters like this too...mad at the world. So the one place they can wear a uniform with epaulets and patches of honor, and bark orders, is the scout troop. Key question: Has anyone pulled him aside and given him an earful in private, one on one? Even if he's a donkey, he should get the courtesy of a chat with a peer in the troop before a bunch other folks from district and council and chartered organization roll in. If the internal ASM/SM talk doesn't work, then it's time to up the ante and get district and others involved, by all means. And if he's career military, he's not going to respond to a lecture on Hershey/Blanchard situational leadership theory...he's probably been through professional military education (several levels) and knows it as well as you. Give it to him with the bark on. Don't beat around the bush, get right to the point. - Concrete examples of how his behavior stinks - Specific effects his behavior is having on the troop - A straightforward request for him to change his behavior, and the consequences you intend to follow through on if he doesn't change. My experience, in military and in scouting, shows that the SM acts this way because he knows he can, and he's rarely confronted about it. Folks endure him and are miserable, but the donkey in question is rarely called on the carpet. If a big meeting with several people in room is the first time he's confronted about his attitude, he'll fight like a cornered bear. But if an ASM were to pull him outside the scout building and tear him a new one, you may be surprised how well he'd take it. Best wishes...I hope he changes but if he doesn't please send him packing soonest.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Great topic! - Simple lock box to keep the scouts' medications in - Skeeter net - One of those portable clear plastic carry cases for all the files...also keeps the rain out - A football and frisbee...helps the scouts burn off excess energy during free time Good luck!

Good advice from all. While we scouters may understand the finer points of uniforming (epaulets, position patches, etc.), the vast majority of cubs and parents will not. But most will respect a properly uniformed adult. True, it may cause some confusion. But a polite re-direct to the right leader solves these issues. As long as it's not expressly prohibited, I'd recommend wearing the uniform as you see fit. As evidenced by the lengthy uniform debates on this forum, the BSA needs every correctly uniformed scouter available, at any scouting event. The cubs will benefit from another good role model, especially your son.

If I ever buy the new scout shirt, I'm going to carry my mini sun dial in the technology pocket.

CalicoPenn, I agree with your observation of swimmers enjoying the lake. Did two mile swims as a scout, one in a swimming pool in AZ, the other in a lake in AK. I can still remember how boring and closed in that pool seemed. Tedium. Even thirty years later, it tires me thinking about it. The lake? Big, cold. Cloudy day with drizzle. When I finished, I was very cold. But every minute out there was like an adventure and I am still proud of it.

Four day camps would help busy adult schedules. But I think it would lessen the summer camp experience for the scouts. They need time to enjoy all that camp has to offer, including an hour or two of doing nothing but sitting around shooting the breeze. The new scouts also need the time to learn some self sufficiency.

Congrats to the scout! The mile swim is tough to do, and it's truly a camp memory maker. I'm still trying to get used to the idea of the numerous "indoor" MBs like fingerprinting being offered at summer camps. Perhaps it's a way to get more scouts to camp. The scout is right, he can earn FP any time.

Gunny's commentary regarding personal responsibility for spiritual growth is spot on. Organizations can try their best to accommodate. Frankly, it depends on the emphasis the council gives it. Big contrasts between them. I think all councils should strengthen their chaplain staffs. Some scouts are seeking more than grace before chow and an occassional vespers service. The good news is that camp staff jobs are temporary...before you know it, the camping season is over and it's back to normal life. (If memory serves, my camp director from years ago told us new staffers that we fell into the same tax category as migrant workers...a nice lesson in humility!) Your son is learning valuable lessons as a staffer that hopefully compliment the values he is learning at church. Best wishes.

BrentAllen, Can't speak to improved effectiveness, but my permethrin treated uniforms (DCUs) pressed up nicely for my deployment two years ago. It was my first time using the permethrin kits, and as I was making a big mess of it out in the yard, I thought the uniforms were ruined. The strong chemical smell, the dripping chemicals, wow! But once they dried, laundry and starch...looked superb. Definitely recommend using the kits in a place where there is lots of fresh air and room to let the clothes drip dry...the govt issue kits were very messy. Best wishes on your trip, DR77(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Skeptic, I was at Philmont in '77 for a trek, then moved to Alaska that winter and joined a troop there. Lots of good scouting memories that year. I too still have my handbook that replaced the "new scouting" one...though I used my '74 handbook for most of my scouting years, I still prefer its successor. The "new scouting" handbook was considered a dud by all--art work, shallow content, etc. The only thing it had going for it: all the requirements, to all merit badges, printed in the back. I enjoyed reading them, even if I had no intention of earning a particular badge. Desertrat77

It's great when scouts show interest in historic patches.... But before you know it, that ugly flap will be historic and cool! This happened to me as a military brat...we moved and I joined a lodge with a long history. The only bad flap in it's history was the one that was current when I joined. Before and after, nothing but superb flaps. Mine? Ugly as sin. But I wore the thing till I moved. Towards the end, everyone else had retired that flap and were wearing the cool new ones. Wearing that old flap showed folks when I started in the lodge, and I was fine with it. Lodge by laws are the key. Even if they aren't clear either way, lodge lore should be acknowledged and followed, as much as possible. This can be tricky, especially if it's only one or two old nay-sayers who make the most noise.

Skeptic is correct...I think BSA took a beating from about '73 -'80. National discarded or downplayed the most successful old school aspects of scouting, chiefly outdoor activity. Why? Kudu could provide a more eloquent explanation than I on this point...but looking back, I think the BSA was trying to be more hip (failed), and attempted to adopt corporate management strategies that snuffed out alot of scouting character and tradition that drew youth to scouting programs in the first place. This was reflected in the wishy-washy scout handbook from that timeframe, the new uniform, you name it. Lots of folks disliked it. When I re-read letters to Boy's Life from that era, the scouts were unhappy too. Example: the Eagle patch went from something classy (greatly resembled the present type) to the word-less "chicken in the mess kit" model. A real flash point. I think BSA survived due to dedicated unit leaders who kept the flame of scouting alive. Troops still went on fifty milers, to summer camp, performed community service, etc. National more or less acknowledged the failure of "new scouting" by publishing a superb new scout handbook circa 1980, if memory serves. Green Bar Bill was back, and the material more closely resembled scout handbooks from the sixties and previous. As a JASM at the time, I was delighted with this new handbook. I'm not too worried about National does...because real scouting takes place, every day, at unit level across this country.

The Philmont Arrowhead patch is superb, timeless. Speaking of MBs, I still get a kick out of my camping MB that has no silver/required border, earned at the peak of the 1970s "new scouting" program.

On the way home from summer camp today, we stopped at a very crowded rest stop with shops and eateries. The scouts, including the older scouts, wore their scout shirts and mingled freely. If they were embarrassed, I didn't detect it. To me, the problem is figuring out how to get them to wear the uniform more often without resorting to "thou shalt." As I've stated in several posts, the day the BSA fields a functional, affordable uniform, is the day this topic becomes moot. I disagree with the premise that the uniform is unpopular because of what the BSA stands for. With some folks, yes. Most of the time, the uniform is unpopular because it's expensive, looks silly, and is designed for sedentary behavior--courts of honor, standing at the flag pole, dinner at camp, power point slide shows at adult leader training. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Kudu, welcome back from camp. I've always believed that "once an Eagle/always an Eagle" was well intentioned but misguided salesmanship on someone's part...over the past couple decades, Eagle Scout attainment (and ceremony) has often turned into a something akin to a coronation. Way over done...the cottage industry of congrats letters, the "marked man" speech, and all of the trappings...I can recall many times, years ago, the Eagle rank was presented at the end of a regularly scheduled court of honor. I think this motivates some scouts--and more often than not, their parents--to push thru the program, fill the squares, just to get "crowned." The values of scouting may or may not ever have been a part of the scout's life. There are far worse things in life to worry about, true. But the emphasis (in some units) on numbers, and the constant praise of the Eagle rank (and none of the other ranks), really heightens the all-or-nothing stakes that makes cases like the one at hand even more difficult for the parents, candidate, and scouters to sort thru. I wish mdsummer 45 and her son the best.

Eagle92, Bringing uniform production back to the USA--hear hear! DR77