desertrat77

GernB, sounds good, where do I sign up?

Nlorey, Welcome to the forum! I'd like to pass along a couple observations from an 1977 Eagle.... First, I understand the heartburn when some is redesigned and the new one stinks. Many of the Eagles in the early '70s didn't like the "chicken in the mess kit" Eagle patch...lots of discontent. But these things pass. The patch was redesigned a few years later. Second, a fancy card will not gain respect outside a small circle of folks who understand such things. Respect as an Eagle comes from exemplifying the principles of scouting in your every day life. It's not about "Eagle bling"--it's about leading the way, in all walks of your life. Third, I don't know when the gold card guys earned their Eagle, but I doubt it was 10x harder...it's always been hard, and as a statistics teacher advised me long ago, stress is relative. Many years ago bird study MB was required for Eagle--brutal to earn. Up until the '60s or so, Lifesaving MB was required and that stopped many a great scout at Life. For several decades, you had to send/receive morse code just to get First Class--another potential show-stopper for some. So you see my point. I salute the Eagles who earned it years gone by, but I also respect my peers and those who have earned it since 1977. So I'm not minimizing your concern about the card. Just saying Eagles are Eagles, regardless of what year they earned, or what was presented at their ceremony. If you serve as an adult scouter, you are going to find superb scouters who topped out at Star or First Class, or maybe didn't get past Tenderfoot. They have my utmost respect...often you will find them serving long-term, at all levels, providing outstanding leadership. They are just as much a part of the brotherhood of scouting as Eagles, and deserve every courtesy. It's all about service......... Best wishes, DR 77 PS There are hundreds of former scouts who didn't make Eagle out there who would give their right arm for the privilege of seeing their name embossed on that ugly card...please strive to be content, if not for your sake, at least out of respect for them. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

SR540Beaver, we can indeed start another WB debate here, but I like the strategy of including new volunteers early. Despite my personal reservations about the WB program, the one benefit it does have is it really makes most participants feel like they are joining something bigger than themselves. I've mentioned this before, and believe it's true: we can encourage that same camaraderie and depth of scouting spirit in our basic adult leader training...but we don't. It's either the whole WB experience or a square-filling, assembly line process to get basic training. If we put some of the flair and sense of belonging from WB into basic adult leader training (at all levels), we might have folks stick around longer.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Looking back, learning to overcome extreme fear of water has been one of my proudest accomplishments. As a cub, I failed the Red Cross beginners course and had to repeat. Yes it was that bad. Then one day it just clicked and I loved the water. As a boy scout, I went on to earn Lifeguard BSA and served on the waterfront staff at scout camp, teaching lifesaving and swimming MBs. Was it easy? Heck no. Was it worth the trouble? Yes indeed! Seems these days, parents buy into their kids' fears and shortcomings...and unwittingly help solidify them. We've got to provide the encouragement and means for kids to overcome those challenges that tax their brains and will power. If the kids show resolve and are determined to see the challenge through, they will learn something that will benefit them their entire adult lives.

Wrongnumber, thanks for sharing that recollection with us...I hope you post more. As beneficial as this forum is, we need more stories from scouts and scouters, about anything...summer camp, first camporee, you name it. The debates are fun, but scouting stories strike a cord in all of us, regardless of where we might stand on a particular issue. Eagle732, you are right, there are a hundred things these days that compete for a scout's interest. I was a scout in the '70s, and even participating in school sports and at church, I don't recall times being as demanding as they are now.

Eamonn, I may have indeed missed the point...but I respectfully submit those adults attending camp, whatever their intention, deserve more consideration. They took a week off from work, family and whatever other commitments they have in life to attend camp. Having attending several camps where there were as many adults as kids, it worked fine because the adults knew going in what their role was--and it wasn't to babysit their own kid. They knew they were going to have some responsibility to the troop and camp as a whole. True, if there is a herd of untrained, overbearing parents attending camp, it can be chaos. But I haven't seen that, as a scout or a scouter. Even if they attend as the greenest, most basically trained adult in the BSA, they can't help but leave that week of camp with a new appreciation for scouting, and hopefully this will spark more interest and participation in an official role year round. It's a great opportunity to really sell the best scouting has to offer--namely, leadership in the great outdoors. Too often, our very best selling points for recruiting scouts and scouters are downplayed. At the end of the day, it's up to each troop to decide. But it's my experience that adults who attend camp, whatever their original motivation, always leave camp with a deep thankfulness for the experience. Narraticong, your comments about the lack of support at council for NESA really got me thinking. Of the councils I've been in, I can't recall much support for NESA in any of them. Sure, there might be a perfunctory call for Eagles once a year to attend a dinner, or drum up donations, but little else. The council I'm in now has an Eagle alum association, but it's of their own design and I haven't seen a single mention it was connected with NESA. Talk about an untapped resource! So why the lack of push? The reasons why could start another thread.

All the adults going to camp: I'll bet some went to keep watch over their kids. But most went for the simple fact that it was scout camp and they wanted to sleep in a tent, hike, row a boat, go for a swim, make a dutch oven cobbler, shoot a couple targets at the range, and the like. They probably went for the same reasons their scouts wanted to go to camp: to get outdoors and enjoy the company of people who share their same values! So let's transfer this thought to adult leader training. How best are you going to get folks to training? If it's uniquely scouting--outdoors, patrol method--you'll capture most. If it resembles a meeting at work--indoors, droning briefer, discussions about the movement of cheese by rodents or the management of minutes--it's going to be tough to inspire folks to spend time doing that. An aside: having adult training indoors and then making it like a pack meeting (singing the Grand Old Duke of York, etc.) is unpalatable too.

I agree that backpacking should be a required MB--in addition to camping. For those with physical limitations, they should be excused upon a doctor's order and allowed to persue some other MB. Expense isn't really a limiting factor. Plenty of cheap options out there, especially for the new scouts who are just learning the ropes. Most of what you buy them will be outgrown, lost or broke anyway. You can pick up an external frame pack pretty cheap on ebay or a yard sale. Do you need a titanium back packing cup or will a plastic one from the thrift store suffice? Purchase a state of the art spork made from "space age polymers" or just borrow that odd spoon from the kitchen drawer? I say this as a guy who's first back pack was a green Kmart Yucca pack, and has bought some very pricey things when I was an adult: simple is best. It's very easy to get caught in the trendy gear vortex. The First Class rule for the camping log is administrivia.

Skeptic, Great list, one small recommended addition: EAGLE WITH APRON STRING DEVICE IN LIEU OF TRADITIONAL WIRE KNOT: Same requirements as basic Eagle, but recipient's Dearly Beloved Mother must have completed at least 51% of the requirements herself. This includes orchestrating entire Eagle project; contacting MB counselors everyday to set up appointments for her scout, as well as secretly preparing all written projects and doing all other work excluding that which must be performed by the scout himself as witnessed by the counselor; buying all the food for campouts when her son was patrol leader; and any other activity that reflects the contrast between Mom's desire for Eagle and Johnny's lack of concern. The Apron String Device will be tied to the bottom of the scroll where the wire knot is normally found, and will be of sufficient length to at least partially cover the Eagle pendant. Additional Apron Strings of various colors may be added for the following achievements by Mom: - Endless badgering of the SM over anything that makes Johnny look less than perfect - Ruthless public and private criticism of troop leadership without actually assuming an official role herself - Loitering in the back of every scout meeting. Small breaks for phone calls and smokes are permitted. - Organizing and executing an over-blown Eagle Ceremony that resembles a coronation

The citizenship series, comm, safety, etc., are best earned during those dreary winter days when even the most dedicated scout would rather be indoors. Frankly, "indoor" MBs entail alot of activity that resembles homework...summer camp should be outdoor focused. Contrary to popular opinion, scouts don't need to be constantly running to and fro earning MBs to have a good summer camp experience. There should be free time to row a boat, throw the frisbee around the parade field, or go on a hike, even if--heresy--it doesn't lead to a MB or patch!

Interesting initiative. Must regretfully, and respectfully, suggest that I do not understand the need for the knot. I salute the guys who earned them all...I earned Eagle plus bronze and gold palms. That just about taxed all my capabilities! So my hat's off to those who powered past me. Two issues: First, it will be tough to prove who actually earned them all. Not that you need to...you can take their word of honor as a scout. Second, I classify earning all the MBs in the same category as the guy who sold the most candy bars in his council for Scout-o-rama. Great accomplishment, but it's a personal goal. And frankly, the need for several knots to represent MBs and palms strikes me as vanity. That said, more power to you, I hope it gets approved. National has approved as least 20 knots that require far, far less effort!

OldGreyEagle, Thanks for the perspective, I respect your view points. I can understand the need for a common language. I just wonder why it has to be so heavy on the managerial theory. There are plenty of leadership principles from scouting history that could be taught as our common scouting language. And although WB is often taught at the local scout camp, it seems the course is conducted more indoors than out. For me, it would be torture to sit thru Management 101 while the great outdoors beckons, just beyond the threshold of the camp mess hall, away from the tedium of powerpoint briefings. If WB offered advanced scouting theory instead, and emphasized more outdoor activities (hiking, cooking, pioneering, etc.) than indoors, I'd seriously consider putting in an application to attend. Interesting the "old time" WBers feel superior...if I've read your postings over the years correctly, you earned Eagle under Old Scouting. Combined with your years of service as an adult leader even before WB completion, I think scouters like yourself had those beads earned long before you signed up for the course. Desertrat77

Welcome! Your perspective will come in handy!

Eagle92, that's good stuff. The neckerchiefs, and variety of staves, these things spark a scout's interest in the true roots of scouting. Sometimes I look at all the BSA equipment these days and get a little overwhelmed at the sheer quantity and how high-tech it is (I'm an old fogey too). For example, I still have and use a Yucca pack at times. It has its limitations, but what a functional, inexpensive, durable item to just throw in a canteen, poncho and a lunch, and hit the trail.

Without our lady scouters, the BSA would be in deep trouble. I second CA Scouter. I'm leary of any effort to overtly or covertly tilt a decision like this towards a particular gender. True, the scouts need positive male role models. But with the turmoil that many of these young men face at home (divorce, ugly custody arrangments, deadbeat moms and dads), I think any motivated scouter--man or woman--is welcome.

Cclman, it's good to know a variety...as the old saying goes, the lively songs are for when the campfire is burning bright, and the somber songs are appropriate as the campfire is fading.

Eagle92, I too had a stave from scout leader training, circa 1976...had it for years. The syllabus included a reprint of old scout handbook drawings of those many uses for staves that you mentioned. Still have it somewhere. That old stuff is very cool. The stave and the neckerchief used to be important parts of scouting. The stave is largely forgotten, unless it is carried by an adult scouter as a mobile advertisement for their accomplishments. Fashionable but not functional. If hikers use anything these days, it's high tech ski poles and the like. The neckerchief went from something large and functional to a dinky thing that isn't much good for anything. The chief attribute of the modern neckerchief is that it can be rolled up real nice and purdy. Little value as a cravat, or anything else. Interesting observation about WBer behavior, thanks for sharing that.

GernB, I'm the rodent that lives under the pile of jumping cholla cactus chunks! But that's too clunky to put on a patrol flag. Or in a call. Let me mull that over!(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Nachamawat, I've wondered the same thing about WB accouterments. I think we have to borrow something from Mr. Maslow, namely, the need to belong.

Eagle92, your comments are very well taken. But my experience with WB clubiness goes beyond the confines of this forum. It harkens back as far as the late 1970s, when as an SPL and JASM I attended adult leader training and other adult scouter meetings. And continued into my adult years as an ASM and UC. There are many great WBers out there, no doubt about it. But each council I've been in, and I've been in a few due to many moves as a military guy, there is a cadre of WBers (mostly at district and council level) that make no bones about their self-perceived status as The Official Keepers of All That is Great About Scouting. Which is fine, if they left it at that. But they don't. When it extends to looking down on scouters who haven't done WB, that's a whole nuther story. So WB is a hard course. And you have to jump thru the hoops to write a ticket and then fulfill it. Great. So that gives a WBer the right to condescend to another scouter? Truth is, many scouters who aren't WBers, and have no intention of being, have contributed just as much to scouting as the WBer who fulfilled a ticket. In some instances, more. With sustained contributions over years and decades. And without the hoopla. They did it because they wanted to, not to seal their official status The Best Scouters. GernB, yes, I know a few critter songs! "Here We Sit Like Birds in the Wilderness" and "Three Wooden Pidgeons" and let us not forget the cats and dogs that ended up in Johnny Verbeck's sausage machine. I have a bag of trail mix and some smashed pop tarts that I will gladly share with my fellow back benchers. Desertrat77

OGE, your point is well taken. There are good WBers out there. Their actions show it. Unfortunately, I think the WB program is tarnished by two things: 1. The program is largely sedentary/indoors, and the topics taught are a rehash of what any employee in any company will get if they are middle management or aspiring to middle management. So why the claims of "This is the Apex of Scout Leader Training?" 2. The incredible hubris of some WBers. Desertrat77

As a non-WBer, I realize how utterly unworthy I am to comment on anything related to the WB program. And I'm doubly unqualified to comment on WB beads. But what the heck, I'll give it a go. According to many WBers, they alone possess Superior Dedication to the Scouting Movement. Bead wearers gained their status at great cost, so it just follows that the rest of us mortals are half steppers and not fully on board with being Good Scouters. So how dare NYLT adult staffers--clearly their accomplishments are but filthy rags compared to WB staffers--don a third or fourth bead? Why, it detracts from the whole WB prestige machine! Please. The superiority of WB--in any aspect--is only evidenced by the personal claims of the WBers themselves. In 1975, I recall my SM receiving his WB beads at our troop court of honor. The old time scouter who presented them said that the original beads came a tribal necklace that BP had in his kit bag, and the idea of giving them out to scouters came at the last minute before camp broke, as a token of what had taken place at camp. (Historical aside: I don't recall any mention of BP requiring the Mysterious Ticket at this encampment before the scouters could claim their bead!) So as a Tenderfoot I understood the legacy. Sad that this legacy has turned into the ultimate secret handshake. Fuel for the fire: the NYLT staff teaches youth. This whole scouting program, as I understand it with my feeble non-WB educated brain, is about youth. I'd say NYLT staffers are more dedicated to scouting than the WB staff, who teach other scouters. Let NYLT staffers have first claim to the beads. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Nick, yester-year wasn't too much different. Believe me, we spent plenty of time hashing and rehashing patches and such. My first lodge (ordeal in 1976) had a one-per-life patch, but also had a trading flap that they sold in any quantity you wished. It just depended on your particular lodge. Some had a ton of merchandise, others had a simple flap and that was it.

Eagle92, thank you for your post, particularly the E. Urner Goodman quote. All too often, flaps, sashes, daggles, patches and honors crowd out the true meaning of the Order of the Arrow. Then it's a fraternity that's focused inward, rather than on cheerful service. As Mr. Goodman said, "The things of the spirit count." A good test of OA commitment would be to strive for the plainest OA flaps possible. Kind of like those old time patches, back in the day. Then who would still be interested? There's your true Arrowmen/women.

Nick, that's a good question. The problem isn't only with scouts; you'll see adults with the same problem in the work place and in scouting. After 25 years in the military, here's the best advice I can give: it's not solely up to you to solve a person's morale problem. Each scout has a responsibility too, namely, to get with the program and not just mope through life. As long as you are being the best leader you can, and promoting the best scout program possible, you've done your 50 percent--and then some. The scouts, even as young people, have to meet the troop in the middle and do their 50 percent--being good scouts, with a good attitude, even if they'd rather be somewhere else. Now, if the whole troop has poor scout spirit, then it's time to say "what should we be doing differently?" If most of the scouts are happy, and you have a few that aren't, there isn't a need to jump through a bunch of hoops to make the few unhappy scouts happy. It's a tough lesson, but they've got to learn to adapt and overcome.