DenZero

Have you been able to provide a den chief to this pack? That would probably help improve your chances, and could be a good source of inside information.

It looks like youre doing very well with your recruiting. You got three times as many boys at your roundup as we did. Your spring recruiting was outstanding (we got none). We tried everything we could to get boys to our roundup, flyers, stickers, personalized letters, yard signs, newspaper announcements, etc., but they all failed. The problem with these methods is that they are unable to overpower word-of-mouth. If youve got a lot of families in your school telling other families that they dont want to join the schools pack, and that they should join the big pack down the road, youre sunk. We have recruited a grand total of zero new boys in the past 6 months. Our schools demographics are favorable to pack growth, but it looks like we will have to throw in the towel after 65 years. A huge pack is much better able to wow people with a flashy program than a small pack can.

Our packs fall round-up has been disastrous this year, we tried everything we could, but have ended up with maybe one new boy. Its pretty discouraging when one boy shows up at the round-up, after spending an awful lot of time and money on promoting it. Basically, we dont have enough families this year to continue as an independent pack. We are thinking of negotiating a merger with the nearby much larger pack. There is another pack in our area that was formed by the merger of two small packs, maintaining two charters, but both units having the same leadership. The boys are split between the two charters. Has anybody else tried this? Any advice on how to make it work? Any examples of by-laws for such an organization?

It took about a year after I registered before it started to show up. For my unit I see it as being useful for the leaders who don't take their positions seriously to see some propaganda about what good programs can be like. It might provide them some inspiration. Since they wouldn't willingly subscribe on their own, I suppose the pack can buy it for them out of popcorn money, but there's another expense. And I don't see these people as reading it online or responding to surveys.

How about handing out Raingutter Regatta kits, with a sticker on them giving the date of the race in about a week. I would think that would help motivate the kids to come back.

This parallels a thread on Scouting Urban Legends, but AFAIK, Webelos outdoor leader training (or whatever it's called) is not required to take a Webelos den camping. I don't think that any training at all is _required_ to take Webelos dens camping. I certainly wouldn't go without having taken Youth Protection, though (YPT might be required by your council). Webelos outdoor leader training is probably nice to have, but if you wait for it to be offered in your council, your Webelos may have aged out by then.

A definite problem for the church that is our chartered organization is that they have an aging congregation, and have very few young families. I went over the church membership with the church secretary, and she said there was one family with a Cub Scout age boy, and he had already been recruited by the other pack in the area. Probably back in the 1940s when the Troop and Pack moved their charters to this church, there were many young families, but things change. Demographics were different in those days, there were twice as many schools and twice as many packs. Having a strong chartered organization can be helpful to a pack. The church that hosts the other pack in our community had a handful of members that had Cub Scout age boys and an interest in Scouting. These boys went to the school where my (now small) pack was started. They decided to join the pack that was hosted by their church. This provided their pack with a group of new leaders, and a strong recruiting foothold at the school where my smaller pack traditionally recruited. They were able to more than double the size of their pack.

Some of the oldest and most successful units around here are self-chartered. The biggest downside I see is that you would have to search for and probably pay for meeting space. I dont see how having a typical chartered organization adds stability. Last year when our pack nearly folded, no one at the chartered org. would have noticed until someone might have dropped off the key to the hall. In a perfect world they should be involved, but most chartered orgs have their own problems, and cant go babysitting the Scout units they host. Earlier this year I tried to find someone within the chartered org who has an interest in Scouting (with the hope of possibly recruiting a new Chartered Org, Rep.) but I was unable to find anyone able to get involved. Its probably been too many years since any families in the church have had boys in the Scouts.

It doesn't have to be fancy. I have one in my garage the belonged to a defunct pack, and it's just a piece of blue cloth connected to a wooden rod and the pack number and slogan painted on it with yellow paint. It was probably made as a den or pack meeting project.

Ill chime in that I think its far more important for a pack to have a good Tiger Den Leader than to have an Assistant Cubmaster. Most packs get by just fine without an ACM. With a willing and enthusiastic TDL already in place, its much easier to recruit Tiger Cubs and get them to stay. Our pack lost all its Tigers last year largely because no one was willing to be Tiger Den Leader. And, since your son wants you to be den leader; that should count for quite a lot. If you do want to take over as Cubmaster, youve got a year and a half to recruit a new Wolf/Bear den leader, or maybe by then youll find someone else willing and able to be the replacement Cubmaster.

I've found that soccer in the fall is easier to schedule around than baseball in the spring, as the baseball games go longer into the evening. The father of one of the boys in our pack was a cub in the same pack when he was a boy, and I've suggested that he should help out with the pack since it's struggling so, but he's afraid it would interfere with his baseball coaching. Oh well... Since I started this thread, I should follow up. Baseball ended up conflicting with our originally scheduled blue and gold banquet, but since we are such a small pack, it took only a few phone calls to reschedule it on short notice, and all 4 of the boys who were getting badges were able to attend. All's well that ends well. If the pack continues next year, we'll get copies of everyone's baseball schedules and get everything scheduled and over with before the June playoffs.

Standerson, Ask your district executive for a list of packs that dont have adequate leadership. Most of these packs would be ecstatic to have an experienced leader come in to lead the Tiger den. We lost all of the Tiger Cubs in our pack last year when the new parents found out that one of them would have to step forward and be den leader. An experienced leader would help recruiting and retention, and help groom parents to take over as den leaders in the future. Having a successful Tiger den could revitalize a struggling pack.

Here are my recommendations. First, get copies of the Cub Scout Leader Book and the Cub Scout Leader How-To Book. Maybe even get enough so that everyone willing to be a leader can read through them. The cubmaster and every den leader ought to have the How-To Book. Youll learn more from them than from Cub Scout leader training. The cubmaster and the committee chair should both have the Cub Scout Leader Book If you have enough people, try to form an actual pack committee. Not just a paper committee, but one that actually meets regularly. Especially if theyve been through the training or read the Cub Scout Leader Book, they should be able to notice problems and work to fix them before it is too late. At the very least, the committee chair should not hold another position in the pack. Make sure that there are enough potential boys available to recruit. Find out why previous packs have failed in your area. If you cant get at least 15 boys year after year, there wont be enough adults for potential leaders, and the unit will fail. It sounds like more than one pack is being started in your area. If thats the case, work out an agreement on recruiting territories, and work together on recruiting. Recruiting is hard enough without another pack trying to recruit out from under you.

Lisabob, This is probably getting off-topic, but registration records aren't a useful guide to the actual positions being served, especially for small packs. Rechartering requires 1 Cubmaster, 1 Den leader and 3 committee members. So a small pack with 4 dens will typically have 3 of the actual den leaders registered as committee members. (and no real pack committee). My experience with Cub Scout leader training is that it really doesn't provide enough information to know how to have a good program. It's also _really_ tough to get people to take the time out to go to it. It's easier to find a few minutes now and then to read this forum, where I've learned 10 times as much as in Cub Scout leader training.

Lisabob sure hit the nail on the head. We lost all of our new tigers this year when it sunk in that if they wanted a good program, one of them would need to step up and be den leader, and that one was not going to be provided out of thin air. Out they slunk, one by one. Most of them ended up in other, larger packs. The big pack in our area did it right. The mom of one of the kindergartners was the type of person who would make a good den leader. They worked really hard to recruit her during the kindergarten year. I tried pretty hard to recruit her and her son as well, starting in January, but the big pack succeeded. So they were able to do fall recruiting with a den leader already in place. They had no problem building up a den of 17 tigers. I suppose it could be made a cubmaster's duty to serve as tiger den leader until a permanent leader could be found, but that's awkward if he's already wolf and webelos den leader too :-).

It is probably easier to get good attendance in February, as baseball hasnt really got going yet, and not as many boys participate in basketball, and fewer still in hockey. The large pack that is our recruiting rival holds their B&G in Feb., but doesnt give out awards or badges there, they have a barbecue in May where badges are awarded. May attendance isnt as good because of sports conflicts, but it works better than June, when we have these baseball playoffs that frustrate parents by not knowing the schedule until the day before the game. I think the cubmasters before me were just lucky in finding a date that worked for most people, and the playoff schedule didnt keep getting changed as often. We are a small dysfunctional pack, and dont really want to put on two banquets. Anyway, we are going to try to have it earlier next year and avoid the exasperating baseball playoffs. If the pack ever gets big enough again, maybe we can try going by the book.

At least in recent history, its been our packs tradition to hold its blue and gold banquet in June, so that we can present advancement awards, and the boys have as much time as possible to finish their advancement work (yeah, we like to procrastinate). This year its been quite frustrating. Its scheduled for this Thursday, which was the only day that most of the boys could make it. At the end of the school year, there are many school events. Holding it after school is out doesnt work, as some families take off for vacation the day after school ends. The biggest problem is that Little League baseball playoffs are held the first two weeks of June. The boys dont know when their games will be until the winners and losers of the previous game are determined. We tried to schedule the B&G on the day after the championship. What we didnt count on is that half of the playoff games have been rained out. Im faced with the prospect of half of the pack (the most active half) having baseball games at the same time as the B&G. The only ones who arent playing baseball are the ones receiving consolation awards for not completing advancement. If the pack continues next year, we will try to schedule it earlier in the year when the games are on a determined schedule, and we can try to accommodate as many boys as possible.

What I'm getting at is that pack meetings get going again in September, which is when we pass out the forms (if the DE gets them to us in time). Or we can cancel the popcorn sale at that time. The boys have about 3 weeks to take orders, then the work begins, collecting the forms and consolidating the order. The work begins again in Nov. when the popcorn needs to be distributed and money collected. If you succeed in getting a popcorn kernel in Oct., there is a load of work off of the cubmaster's back. Over the last 5 years, we got a popcorn kernel once, the CM ran it 3 times, and we cancelled it once. You might be able to beat our average. It can be a lot more work upfront if you do show and sell, but we don't want to commit to that if we might cancel at the last minute.

I don't know how it works in your council, but in ours, if you sign up for popcorn in June you get 5% more commmission. I've gone ahead and signed up our pack, and if we don't end up selling popcorn, we aren't out anything. Since there isn't any work required until October, if you're lucky you'll recruit some new families in the fall, and can talk one of them into handling the corn. At least I'm hoping to be able to do that.

I think the most important thing is to have a dedicated core group of parents who are willing to stick it out. If your core group takes off as soon as it gets difficult, you are in trouble. You need people who are willing to take on the positions of committee members and den leaders, and actually carry out the duties of those position. You nead a functioning committee who can tell if the duties are being carried out, and recruit new leaders to fill the gap. Don't bother starting the pack if it is expected that one person will do everything. It helps tremendously if your core group is well-connected in the community, and can work to recruit more families into the pack.

It looks like you are well on your way doing the on-line training. Since there most likely won't be basic leader training until the fall, buy a copy of the Cub Scout Leader's Book, and the Cub Scout Leader How-To Book, and read them over the summer. After that you will be ready to teach basic leader training :-). If your council offers BALOO training, try to work that in so you will be able to have official pack campouts, and not have to mangle semantics to get around the requirement.

I dont see this as being any more of a liability risk to invite families who happen to be in the pack to meet at the XYZ State Park where we will be camping the weekend after next than to invite my next door neighbors to meet at the XYZ State Park where we will be camping the weekend after next. Obviously, we wont be covered by BSA liability, because it isnt a scouting event, everyone is on their own. Those of us who are considering doing this sort of thing arent doing it in order to have a cold one by the campfire; were going camping with families weve met in Cub Scouts, because in order to schedule an official pack campout, Id have to take BALOO training, and it hasnt been offered in our council at a time that is convenient for me and my family.

OK, does anybody have any ideas for when the things listed above have been tried without result? Weve sent out flyers inviting boys to Pinewood Derby and Raingutter Regatta and offering them free car and boat kits; weve sent home flyers and stickers for pack meetings with themes that sounded attractive; we had a booth at the community festival with the PWD track set up; we just did a really fun geocaching outing promoted with flyers and a notice in the neighborhood weekly paper (which we did for most of the other events as well). I have not had any new boys show up to any of these events. The elementary school we try to recruit from has the largest kindergarten and first grade classes they have had in many years, and its frustrating that there doesnt seem to be any interest. I know that word-of-mouth recruiting is the most effective, but Im not very good at it, and dont really have the time to try to track these people down. I will try lobbying the PTA again to try to let us have a booth at the back-to-school barbecue. They turned me down last time I tried, saying they dont want to open it up to outside groups.

We actually just tried this, but need a better strategy. On Monday, the District Exec. gave a presentation at lunchtime, and sent home all the younger boys with stickers announcing the roundup at the school on Tuesday evening. The DE resreved the school lunchroom for the evening, and I met him and the assistant district commissioner there. We came armed with lots of brochures and handouts. One family of a prospective Tiger showed up, and we gave them a really good presentation. It appears that this technique is not reaching enough families. There are more kids in Kindergarten and first grade this year than they have had for many years, but reaching them and getting them to consider Cub Scouts is very difficult. Any other ideas?

Has anyone had success having joint activities when one of the packs is very large and the other is very small? I'm afraid that our small pack would be lost in the noise at events sponsored by the large pack, and the small pack doesn't really have the resources to host the large pack.