denver4und@aol.com

Gosh I hate it when the committee is having a battle. So often it has nothing to do with Scouting, and too much to do with adults wanting to be "right". Been in Scouting forever, and I've never seen a policy. I doubt there is any since "cross over" is not an advancement, award or achievement. However, as SM I was at a Pack Cross Over last spring. There were 3 troops receiving boys. I counted the Webelos, and then the list of who was being called to go where, and I was appalled: there were going to be three boys left on the stage when all was said and done, going literally nowhere. I had a hurried talk with the Cubmaster and said "put us last, we'll call our guys, give them neckerchiefs, and then we'll call the other three and give them a warm congratulations!!! My guys did exactly that (I have four scouts who do this kind of ceremony) and the end result was all the cubs had big smiles, everyone felt "graduated" or "commenced" or whatever, and no one got left out ---and for me, that's Scouting. So, tell the committee to lighten up and remember that Scouting is for the boys. By the way, KC, I get it that you apparently didn't want "those other boys" cluttering up the cross over. If that's true, then shame on you! Hawk was exactly right. In fact, that's the post-script to our story. One of those 3 who initially had told his folks he'd rather do soccer than scouts ended up in our Troop. But just think, he might have ended up with a bad taste in his mouth instead, and grown up to be a judge, and ended up on the court that got the case the next time the BSA got sued over exclusionary policies... Oh well, life goes on............. yis(This message has been edited by denver4und@aol.com)(This message has been edited by denver4und@aol.com)

How old is the Scout? If he's 16, offer him a job as Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. I had the issue, had a boy repeat as SPL after a year break from his first tour, and then instead of a 3d tour, I suggested there was a job to challenge him available. yis

Hi Annalisa, welcome to the forums. You experienced the same thing I did when I first ventured a post. Posting here is like getting old, "it ain't for sissy's!" But stay with it. Eventually you'll see that most of these guys really love scouting but sometimes get a bit defensive. As for your topic, I'd love to add a line or two if its not too late. I'm a Scoutmaster. I'm with my second troop in that job (had a troop 15 years ago in another council). I have two female ASM's and 6 male ASM's. I have taken the Troop camping with just me and one of the female's (twice now) and everything goes swimmingly. I have also had two women attend summercamp last year as ASM's for the entire camp week. That also went very well. Finally, my committee chair is female. My daughter is a Venturer, and she joined because she was not getting challenged, nor allowed to do challenging stuff in Girl Scouts. Although she did get her Gold Award. (The boys are wrong when they tell girls to stay in GSA and "fix it", its busted beyond fixing, but that's another thread.) And a girl (just like a boy) should be able to have fun and do Scouting without spending her time worried about politics and being Don Quixote! I think the wording of your topic may be to blame for some of the responses, and the off-topic problems. The Topic: "The Pros and Cons of Women and Girls in the Boy Scouts of America" suggests an issue over whether females are allowed in the Boy Scouts. That has been settled. Some time ago I posted a quote from the 1972 issue of Scouting magazine that announced the national board's decision to allow women to become scoutmasters. Before that they could be every job except SM, and it took a few lawsuits to change National's Mind. Moreover, females have been allowed in Explorers since I was a boy (early 60's at least), and in Venturing since it was resurrected. So there really is no debate over letting females in, unless you want to start one on kicking them out. However, if the topic was meant to discuss what you have experienced, which is that females are not treated the same as boys and men most of the time, then there is certainly fodder for writing. In my experience, most women do not feel welcome on camping trips with the Boy Scouts. I have certainly tried to make everyone welcome, but there are problems. First, is the gender issue. Many women just don't feel comfortable camping. My wife is one who enjoyed camping with me and my Troop when we were first married (about 22 years ago), but later in life she decided to leave it to me and my son and daughter, except for family trips. Second, the gender issue runs head long into facilities. The summercamp we recently attended had flush toilets and indoor modern showers for female leaders. That helps a lot. Its one thing to be out with the guys, its another to be in the rickity (sp?) showerhouse with gaps in the boards, no door and a sign one flips over to say "women" that boys never read. Third, there is the issue of dinosaur guys. I've had male leaders who have made inappropriate comments about female leaders and even female DE's. Unfortunately, being a Scout doesn't guarantee either education or lack of biggotry. However, Rome wasn't built in a day, and women didn't get the vote in one either. So, I come down to adding the following to your paper: I think the "pros and cons" to debate have to do with how much the Boy Scouts as a corporate institution is willing to work on making the "paper" match the "reality". I think that there is evidence that its doing a good job. Look at Philmont, the bastion of manly-man, carry heavy loads up mountains, "pee on a rock", maleness. About half of the Rangers (those who lead every crew out and teach/supervise for the first two days) are female these days. When I went in 1969 there were only 2 or 3 at Philmont. This is the kind of contact with current Boy Scouts that is going to be the source of new attitudes when those boys become leaders themselves. Of course, in 2001 while on the trail at PHilmont, my crew came across an all-female trail crew. So, things are still happening. Also, look at Sea Base. Again about half the staff are female (although I didn't see any female boat captains yet). Finally, look at summercamps all over the country. We're in Colorado. In the past few years I've been to summercamp in Colorado, Virginia, Wyoming, South Dakota and Nebraska. All those camps had significant numbers of female staff -- and not just in the commissary and nurse's tent. They were in program areas, teaching merit badges, going on out-post, etc. In fact in one camp here in Colorado the camp director was female during the 2000 season. Thus, since the summercamps are run by the local councils, I'd say that national had done a good job of promoting non-sexist practices in the organization, as well as set the example with the national high adventure bases. Is there more to come, and progress to be made yet? Sure. I'd like to see female DE's that didn't get run off quite so fast (but pay may be part of the problem there). I'd also like to see the Boy Scouts start a co-ed program for the 11-13 age group. Of course, that's off-topic [so if you other guys want to debate that one, start a new thread! ] My vision is separate Troops for Boys and Girls ages 11-17 but those Troops join in Scout Shows, camporees, etc. with the male Troops. I'd leave the only units with both sexes in one unit where it is, with Posts, Ships and Crews. But then, I'm becoming a dinosaur and I'd not be surprised to see more movement by the time I'm a fossil. Scouting is co-ed in many countries. I understand Australia is one. I know that Israel is another, and I just got back from the UK, and it certainly seems to be co-ed there, at least in the middle school/high school ages. But on those particulars, you'll have to find a better source. Good luck, yis

Now OldGreyEagle has a complaint! Wonder if the new bureau of politically correct Eagles (that's another thread) can open a sub-department of obtaining signatures from other, more pc presidents?

Rooster7 wrote in response to my comment: "If you're convinced that the rest of the country believes as you do, then how do suppose President Bush was elected...Oh yeah, there's that right wing conspiracy again. Sorry. You know, its funny how much influence Rush Limbaugh and Fox News wields. As for President Clinton, I let his record speak for himself. Of course, that assume he hasnt found a way to rewrite it. " Huh? Now Rooster I know that you're a reasonable guy, 'cause we're having a good discussion on another thread, but your comment makes my point. When it comes to politics (and religion, still another thread) people have the ability to lose sight of the forest for the trees. I never said, or can my comments be fairly read to imply that I meant, that the rest of the country believes as I do. That was my point. "Those who voted" were evenly split. My quarrel was with the idea that Bush has either "most" folks backing his policies, or any kind of mandate. He doesn't have either. He does now have a "favorable" poll result. But NOBODY knows what that means except the folks that ABC and the others hire.! Nor were my comments fairly the subject of a bs argument that I'm claiming a right wing conspiracy for crying in a bucket. I clearly don't respect Bush as a man. Since I'm retired I get to say so. I was in the minority (barely) on that issue last election. Now if you want to talk conspiracy, let's look at how Florida has two screwed elections, where the votes can't be counted, until First Brother Jeb runs for re-election, and then suddenly there seem to be no problems at all in Florida's ability to count votes. I WAS KIDDING -- NO, PLEASE DON'T BURY ME IN RESPONSES, AGGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggggggg.................

Interesting. I just spent 1.5 hours looking for the answer, and I can't find it. I also can't find a single copy of the BSA National bylaws, apparently called the Rules & Regulations, anywhere on the net. I did look in all the usual places, Committee Guide, SM HAndbook, Advancement Policies & Procedures Committee Guide, etc. Nowhere in any of those materials is there even a hint that an awarded award of any kind, let alone an Eagle badge may be revoked. So, if anyone has an idea of 1) any history, anecdotal or otherwise, of any authority for the claim that any award in Scouting can be "revoked". 2) where one can find the current national rules and regulations of the BSA. yis

Rooster 7 wrote in response to my comments: ""Denver Jim" I find your remarks to be without much forethought. In the name of religious tolerance, you criticize people who debate the validity of evolution. Yet, in your eyes, in order for these same folks to redeem themselves, they must keep their religious viewpoints to themselves. To that, I simply say - Your logic amazes me. You would have made George Orwell proud. My faith is strong enough to hear the opinion of others. Neither my God, nor my faith, are harmed when others express opinions that oppose mine. If the faith of others is just as real (and not just a pretence to be offended), then one must assume that their faith is just as strong, and their God just as powerful. They should be able to withstand and tolerant my right to express my opinions. Furthermore, should we not agree, my faith and my pride does not compel me to persecute these people. I respect their right to believe as they chose. I am able to tolerant their unbelief.* My faith allows me to respect, and even to befriend, most people. I expect people with different faiths than mine to respect me in the same manner." Funny, but so far we AGREE completely, Rooster's comments are mine restated. Rooster7 then continued: "*Now, some folks may take offense to this statement. To them I ask - Does your faith represent what you believe to be true about God and the world? Or perhaps it's merely a moral code or something that you consider to be a part of your culture? If it's the former, then you should not take offense. If you know the truth and I don't, then pity medon't be "offended". If it's the latter, perhaps you take offense because you do not want to confront another truthyou have no real faith. You don't know God." Now we don't agree. Re-read my comment. I never said one word about her beliefs. She can believe as she pleases, and so do I, and for that matter so does rooster. But my comment was directed ONLY at the contempt and close-mindedness of the lady's comments. I was criticizing the biggotry, not her beliefs. If anyone thought otherwise besides Rooster7, then to Rooster and all those who thought so, "I apologize". yis

well, poll results are stable, as of my vote it was 48% no, 42% yes. No one has addressed another question. There is no process for revoking Eagle Awards. Thank goodness!!!! Can you imagine? We could set up a whole "vatican-like" bureau for the annulment of Eagles, the revocation of Eagles, the confirmation of Eagles (for politicians convicted of crimes wanting to reaffirm their goodness), and the consecration of Eagles (for those who want to be Eagles all over again, or didn't get it done before they were 18). Lol, alot! In all seriousness, there is no procedure. Once an Eagle always an Eagle, which is, of course, the fact that gives meaning to the Eagle Charge ("....you are a marked man...."). yis

Wow. Rooster7, go buy a newspaper. "Most" of the country does not disagree with the poster. Neither Bush, nor the current Congress was elected by "most" of anything. Both were elected by razor thin majorities of those who cast votes. Since less than 100% cast votes, and the winners in viturally every race got only 51% of the votes cast, "most" never happened. The poster's point can be ignored, but should not be belittled (after all her 1st Amendment rights are equal to Rooster's). Bush and the current congress do not have a mandate. They barely had enough votes to get into office. They need to be treated with the caution that a marginal candidate(s)in non-definitive races deserve. They do not need to presume that they are God's chosen, 'cause they aren't anymore than the candidate here in Colorado that lost by 122 votes out of 168,000+ cast!

Wow. I didn't know that being a Republican was code for checking your common sense at the door. Can Bush fake tears -- well, do bears do it in the woods? If so, then politicans do it in front of cameras. Bush is a politician. Anybody who thinks that a politician can be a saint is naive. Clinton was also a politician, and he was not a draft dodger. He resigned from ROTC and wrote a letter saying why. He never got drafted. Bush had a low lottery number (fact, easily researched by going back to the NY Times or Wall Street articles from before his first election as president). He joined the Air National Guard (fact). He lived in Texas, but was assigned a unit in Alabama (fact). He did not drill, but was paid and listed as active and got drill credits for days when he was not with the unit (facts, by the way admitted by his ex-co and by other officers in his unit). At the time his daddy was a senator/government cabinet member (fact). I'm a Republican, but I'm not so stupid as to believe that just because Bush says he's a Republican that he's either an angel or the second comming. He's a politician. The fact that 50% of the electorate wanted to ignore his "service" record and elect him does not mean that the facts are not facts or that it was excusable conduct. I'm a former Army officer, JAG prosecutor and ROTC grad. In case you haven't notice, not all criminals get convicted, and heck some don't get prosecuted! Want some more funny facts? Guess which administration was the object of more money spent on special prosecutors than any other administration in history? Yes, give the little lady a cupie doll, it was Reagan. Guess which administration was the object of the longest running term of special prosecutors than any other administration in history? Yes, give the little lady a cupie doll, it was Reagan. Finally, guess in which administration the special prosecutors actually obtained the most convictions (not counting watergate, since the burglars were not politicians and if excluded the numbers aren't there)? Yes, give the little lady another cupie doll, it was Reagan. By contrast, the special prosecutors sent after Clinton spent a hair less than those after Reagan, and got exactly one conviction of a politician (the fomer Secty of Ag(?)) for accepting crystal bowls and stuff. I voted for Reagan, twice. I still think that besides Ford, he was the greatest President we've had in modern times. I also think that some of the laws under which his appointees were prosecuted sometimes don't make sense. But I've got no stars in my eyes that the guy was an angel. Hell, he was not only a politician, he was a Hollywood actor! I'll bet he could cry on cue also! Haven't had enuf funny facts? How about this one. When Clinton was elected a Marine officer named Oliver North published, over his signature, several criticisms of Clinton's ethics, honesty and character. At the time he made these public announcements, he was on active duty with the Marine Corps. He was not court-martialed for these offenses. Under the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) such comments by an officer about the President, even outside the hearing of the President are crimes). He was not prosecuted. The UCMJ provision is as follows: "ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct." At almost the same time, a Marine E4 faxed an anonymous letter to the office of Congresswoman Pat Schroeder. The letter was insulting and questioned her ethics, honesty and character. At the time, Congresswoman Schroeder was a ranking member of the Armed Forces Committee. The FBI and Office of Naval Invesigations (I think that's the name, I was Army) made a full blown investigation, id'd the E4 and he was prosecuted, convicted and ejected from the Service. It was a crime under the UCMJ for him to have sent the letter. It was, in fact, the same crime that Mr. North committed. The Article of the UCMJ applicable to the enlisted member was: "ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, ll conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court." Any idea why the E4 was prosecuted and not the LTC? Come on, the darling of the conservative press and pundits vs. a nobody E4 with no powerful friends. As an Army JAG I saw several of these, they weren't right, but they're life, just like politicians who cry on cue and wax eloquent about servicemen giving the "final full measure" although the politician himself did not serve and is not a veteran. Another funny fact? Ok, sure. After the invasion of Grenada, like in all military conflicts since and including WWII, the military issued a general order prohibiting the removal of "war trophies", including captured weapons from the theater of war to the US. An admiral loaded his plane with weapons and US Customs caught him in the act when he landed. At the same time (literally the same week) an Army Captain and his crew chief put 6 captured rifles (taken from the same warehouse as the Admiral's hoard) onto their Black Hawk and flew home. They were caught by MP's acting as customs agents. The Captain and crew chief were court-martialed, convicted, imprisoned and ejected from the Service. The Admiral was not prosecuted nor punished. I wrote, as a prosecutor working at the time for The Judge Advocate General of the Army, the clemency review request for the Captain, and recommended clemency on the "t'ain't fair" rule. While I was commended for my intellectual honesty and forthrightness, the clemency petition was denied. Go figure. Wow. That was longer than I intended, but the point should be clear. Bush and the current congress do not have a mandate. They barely had enough votes to get into office. They need to be treated with the caution that a marginal candidate(s)in non-definitive races deserve. They do not need to presume that they are God's chosen, 'cause they aren't anymore than the candidate here in Colorado that lost by 122 votes out of 168,000+ cast!

If you ever wanted proof that the right hand and the left hand don't even know each other's office and floor numbers at national bsa hq, the issue of uniform shorts is it. Have you noticed what STAFF wear at Philmont and Sea BAse? They wear commercial shorts made by Columbia Sportwear Company. Both Philmont and Sea BAse embroider their own emblems on the legs and the staff wear them without complaint. As for my troop, we're changing over to Columbia shorts. WE bought matching ones for Sea Base and they worked very well with the uniform shirt and socks, color is kind of a drab brown/green. Philmont and Sea Base, by the way, use a cream or buff color. so National, wake up, and get the uniform division and the high adventure division working together -- BUT FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE DON'T LET THE UNIFORM DIVISION SET UNIFORM POLICY!!!!! By the way, the Columbia shorts have GREAT pockets, especially the "map pockets" on the back. yis, Jim

If you ever wanted proof that the right hand and the left hand don't even know each other's office and floor numbers at national bsa hq, the issue of uniform shorts is it. Have you noticed what STAFF wear at Philmont and Sea BAse? They wear commercial shorts made by Columbia Sportwear Company. Both Philmont and Sea BAse embroider their own emblems on the legs and the staff wear them without complaint. As for my troop, we're changing over to Columbia shorts. WE bought matching ones for Sea Base and they worked very well with the uniform shirt and socks, color is kind of a drab brown/green. Philmont and Sea Base, by the way, use a cream or buff color. so National, wake up, and get the uniform division and the high adventure division working together -- BUT FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE DON'T LET THE UNIFORM DIVISION SET UNIFORM POLICY!!!!! yis, Jim

The reason that most boys give for wearing something other than official BSA pants or shorts is the same reason that most adults give -- they don't fit, won't wear under hard use, and never clean up well. I'll never figure out national -- using a french fashion designer to come up with cargo pockets that won't hold anything! Or a waistline and seat system that doesn't fit most americans. Anyway, BDU's are a bad idea because they are military uniform parts (sorry hunters). But we encourage our guys to wear jeans. They wash, they wear and the kids will wear them. AS for Bob's message. Yes, no unit can change the uniform. But in the real world all unit's make decisions about what parts of the uniform to use for events, activities, camping, etc. yis, jim

WOW. Boy did I stumble into something really bizarre. Hey guys, we're supposed to be scouting. Not calling names. I am shocked at "scouters" (lower case intentional) who are so narrow minded, hidebound, and generally prejudiced that they would write things like: "Evolutionary theory deals with creation outside of the scope of God, based on that alone it is an engine of evil. I wasn't clear on your meaning about you preaching sunday, please clarify." She's not the only one. Lots of posters here have betrayed a real inability to appreciate anyone else's point of view. Here I sit, preparing to go to a Troop meeting in an hour. I am SM, and I'll have boys there tonight from at least 6 Christian denominations from Roman CAtholic to Southern Baptist, I'll have several Jews, One Sikh, a couple of Muslims (originating from different continents), etc. So I'm going to have a SM minute on diversity and tolerance, and try to show why the US is different from the places that send people to murder thousands of innocents by crashing airplanes into office buildings. Here's my material: I urge several of you to review the Scout Handbook. Try page 50, where we learn the meaning of the Scout Law Friendly: "A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own." For that matter, try page 54, in the explanation of Scout Law Reverent: "A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others....Throughout your life you will encounter people expressing their reverence in many different ways. The Constitution of the United States guarantees each of us the freedom to believe and worship as we wish without government interference. It is your duty to respect and defend others' rights to their religious beliefs even when they differ from you own." So,I'm off to a meeting. Try to have a little tolerance for one another's views. And while I'll defend the lady to the death for her right to argue that "evolution is the engine of evil", I, in turn, can ask: "lady, for crying out loud, are you listening to yourself?" Don't label other peoples legitimate beliefs about their religion as "evil". You're not in charge. Heck, even Christians don't agree on a single doctrine, and we've had 2000 years to work on it! As for me, my God is amazing enough, powerful enough, and way smarter than me. So I believe that he probably used evolution as part of His plan the same way that he uses lots of other stuff, including sending his Son to change the way things were done for several thousand years prior to His arrival. Many of us can't believe in literal interpretation, because then we'd have to listen to Saint Paul, who instructed women to be quiet in church and learn from their husbands, and when they had questions, ask them in private at home. (1 Timothy 2:11-12). AFter all, my wife would kill me..... We'd also have to tell the Pope he has it wrong about celibacy. (Bishops are to have only one wife, 1 Timothy 3:2). But then I don't have to believe in literal interpretation to be a Scout. In fact, Scouting doesn't care what I believe in, just so I believe in something. BE NICE!!!! YIS, Jim (This message has been edited by denver4und@aol.com)

first time I've tried this, so here goes. Here is our letter that we use every summer. At mid-week (Wed or Thur) guys are required to take 10 minutes after lunch and fill it out, draw a picture, and address an evelope home (addressing is the toughest, what do they teach in school?). form: From Camp Medicine Mountain, South Dakota Dear _______________________________ Date:_________________ Thanks again for sending me Camp Medicine Mountain. Ive only been at Camp ____ days so far, and I wanted to let you know how things are going. If you want to write to me, my correct address is on the back of this letter. I hope that this letter reaches you in time for you to write back to me. The Senior Patrol Leader gave me this letter and said that he knew I wanted to mail it to you (how did he know that?). Oh well, here goes ... I am:Fine Good Fair Lucky Well Sick Bored Happy Wet Dry Tired Hungry I like the: Senior Patrol Leader Scoutmaster Scouts in my Patrol Food Everything Swimming Sailing Biking Scenery Travel Tentmate On the trip up I was: bored tired excited sleepy crowded silly Today I: climbed ____________ saw ___________________ made a _______________ learned how to ___________________ ate__________________ heard __________________ My favorite activity here at camp is: hiking eating seeing animals working making new friends harassing the staff OR: ______________________________ Camp Medicine Mountain has/is: very pretty scenery hot cold wet dry big The CMM Staff are: enthusiastic friendly crazy helpful smart big funny bossy ____________________ __________________________ My Patrol is: a great bunch of guys running great really busy smelling bad So far I have been the: latrine cleaner water guy food server target I really need: love sympathy more cookies band-aids money hot shower batteries candy a _____________ or a _______________ Please say hello to: sister(s) brother(s) dog(s) cat(s) fish girlfriend Grandma & Grandpa or ________________________________ I think I going to learn a lot at camp. So far Ive learned ___________________________ and the staff says that were going to ____________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ before the end of camp. I took a picture of: my tent my tentmate chipmunk bird scout __________ With: Love Affection A Big Hug A Slobbery Kiss or: _________________ From: _________________________ Patrol: _________________________ ----------- check out the stuff on the back ----------> Heres a picture of ___________________________________________ I also wanted to tell you what happened [to] [at] [when]:

We call it "Scoutmaster Mail" and its always a hit. We even have some care packages "arrive" that way. yis, jim

Hi. I would encourage you to thumb through "Scout Camps USA" a soft bound 81/2 by 11 publication you can get online at same name.com. We also had problem with guys getting bored with the local summer camp. So we started looking around. I doubt we'll be back to our local camp anytime in the next decade! We first went to Camp Buffalo Bill, which sits outside the east gate of Yellowstone Nat'l Park. Talk about a summer camp! Got the best of all worlds. The camp lets you stay there before or after your week for extra days at a nominal fee. So we had a week of BSA summer camp, got our MB's, and then spent 5 days hiking and touring in Yellowstone, while staying really cheap! We next tried Camp Medicine Mountain, which is across the Highway from Crazy Horse Memorial and down the road from Mt. Rushmore at Custer, S.D. This camp was GREAT. Had some of the best facilities we had ever had in camp, and we had a ball. We went to Crazy Horse and Mt. Rushmore on our "day off" on Wednesday, and about half our 34 boys stayed for what we now call "after camp adventure" and we toured the area, from Wind Cave, to Custer State park, to the water park, etc. AGain stayed at the camp itself for a nominal fee. Had a ball. ONce again the best of both worlds, advancement done and MB's earned and a great time had by all. Next year we are going to Camp K Bar M, Lewistown, MT. We'll be taking older guys (13 and over) for a 5 day, 70 mile canoe trip on the Missouri where Lewis & Clark traveled, while the rest of the Troop stays in camp and does the regular summer camp thing. The camp runs the canoe trip (and also a 5 day Mountain Bike Trek as well). So, take a look at vacationing through summer camps! yis, jim

Hi. If possible, we always go to a camp that provides for patrol cooking method. We camp year around, but summercamp is where my new guys learn to cook. Next year we're trying a new thought, which is to go to a camp that provides for both. We'll do dining hall when we arrive and get settled and again on Friday and Saturday before we leave, doing patrol cooking the remainder of the camp. I've found that besides teaching cooking, summer camp cooking is the best way to get the concept of a duty roster and working together across to the guys. yis, jim

Back in the day when red berets were the official uniform, I purchased several from non-BSA sources. Frankly, I could never figure out how BSA got stuck with arguably the worst ever made beret! Anyway, I always got them from Military uniform outlets, surplus places etc. Many drill teams, university ROTC groups etc wore the red berets (and many other colors) until very recently. good luck, jim

so, here at long last is latest report on Patch Place. They did do our 40th anniversary patch, and it came out fine. But I have several more gray hairs than I did when I started with them. For instance, before I made an order they went ahead and ordered manufacture based on our initial conversations. Luckily we didn't have any more changes or need a different number or there would have been a real train wreck. My impression is that their sales force is new/inexperienced and having a lot of trouble getting up to speed. Still manufacturing in china and points east w/o warning that they do so. On another note, we just had a great run of a camporee patch by Welsh Industries. They were great, no problems, great artwork and rework and delivered on time and on budget. Highly recommend them. Jim

Venturer 2002, not sure where you're coming from. Your original post implies there is some "limit" either desireable or in the rules for number of adults on an outing. You also indicate that some adults in your unit (I presume they're parents) come when "not invited." Whoa! First, there are no secret activities in the boy scouts. Therefore any parent that wants to attend may do so. If the outing is one involving a skill set (like a backpacking trip) then the parent must take the responsibility to get the skill set. But the unit does not have the right to exclude the adult. There are exceptions. For example, at Philmont 75% of the crew must be youth members so units often have either "seniority" or "sign up" methods to rotate the leadership among those who would like to go. Second, your post indicating that 2 is all thats necessary or desireable is wrong. 2 is the minmium requirement. Mimimum is the opposite of maximum. While we go for 2 deep leadership, you don't find anything in 2 deep that says "only 2". In fact, unless your whole unit is staying in one place and doing only one thing, you can't even achieve 2 deep with only 2 adults. Our troop encourages all parents who want to camp to go camping. Our last sunmmercamp was 34 boys and 10 adults. Our "normal" weekend outing is about 23-26 boys and 6-8 adults. As a scoutmaster I can't usually get enough adults. And an adult involved in the program is usually also a family and boy involved. So, the question isn't "how many adults" its "how many adults can I get to go and support our boys' activities". If you have a "problem" with certain adults, find out what the problem is. Is is adults who dont' understand the program and its goals? If so, what have you done to teach them? If its adults who are disruptive, what have you done to educate them or correct behavior. good luck, jim

Well gosh, seems like lots of good will. That isn't the problem. There are two problems that must be focused upon. 1. killing animals is wrong. It violates the "kind" plank of scout law. It is in fact the number one indicator of person with serious mental defects who will often turn out to be a people/child abuser or career criminal. [Fact, not myth--ask any psych professional]. 2. if the mom "threatens violence" that's called assault in all states [present statement of intent with ability to carry it out is an assault, unlawful use of force is a battery]. The scoutmaster and troop committee should immediately meet with chartered institution head and go over facts. End of meeting should be a letter signed by chartered unit head (that's why they get the big bucks!) telling family they are out until the issues have been addressed and they have a letter from qualified professionals evidencing treatment and progress. I teach a variety of courses, including Youth Protection and Harassment/Discrimination in the workplace. There is a real qualitative difference between misbehavior and behavior evidencing severe mental or emotional problems. YOu got the latter, and it must be dealt with. good luck. yis jim

Sorry to hear about your experience. I had a similar one a couple of years ago, but the committee went the other way. In the meantime, sounds like you don't have a boy in the troop -- so dont leave scouting, go get a job at district roundtable or on the district committee. Lots of boys need dedicated volunteers. Remember, its about the boys, not the parents. good luck yis, jim

Hi. I'd love to have you in our troop! We just got back from summercamp in another state 400 miles away from home. We took 34 boys and 10 adults. 2 of the adults who stayed the week were women (this was one mom's second summercamp). After the week, 15 boys stayed for 5 days of sight seeing. All of the summercamp parents went home except me, and 4 moms showed to be my co-leaders for the second segment. We had an excellent time, including the 5 mile hike across the Badlands in 103 degree heat! So. Not only is the pox currable, its inexcusable. After all it was 1978 when BSA officially changed their policy to allow woment to be sm's and asm's. However, your second message raised some issues beyond just "fitting in". First, push ups are not authorized in BSA. I know, because I used to use them, and got a letter directed by Nationals saying that the practice is to be considered in violation of the BSA Youth Protection policies as well as hazing. So tell the guys to knock it off. [i know that this will bring out a whole new thread on push ups and discipline, and that thread will be fun, but belongs elsewhere -- the letter and policy are a fact.] Second, recognized that Martians and Venusians speak different languages. Boys need to hear both. While some guys bark, and boys need some barking in order to learn and grow up as Martians, there's nothing wrong with an adult leader who doesn't bark. (Although when the kid has the ax in the air and its headed the wrong way, barking has a real place!). Finally, don't be intimidated by the fact that you have a different style. And don't be accepting of a secondary role. All those other goofs who are asm's were novices once too. They didn't "learn" scouting by being told how to do it at meetings, they learned by reading the books, going camping and doing it. Training is a must. To be credible, you must have the credentials. I push all my parents to training, whether they signed on as committee members, fund raisers, or are looking to be asm's. As a SM, I've found that many times a guy looking to be an asm isn't really suited, while the mild mannered woman or man who thought they were going to "be in the background" turned out to be my better activity and camping leaders. So, quit standing along the wall and join in the conversation about "what are we doing on the campout" and keep asking questions and volunteering -- unless the SM is blind and deaf, he'll see an adult looking to help out -- and that is always something a SM can't afford to pass up. And remember, if it isn't fun, then its not being done correctly. YIS, jim sctmstr, t457, denver

I've dealt with several. Here are my opinions: RE PATCH PLACE. Our Troop has a unique patch which we use on our neckerchiefs. The patch was last printed in 1996 and was very well done by this company. However, in past several months we have been working to get new order made along with anniversary tabs for the patch. The company has changed hands or employees or something and we've had some real communication problems and delays. Get in touch with me in 2 weeks and I'll let you know how they did this time. They use a chinese manufacturer without telling you in advance that they are ordering overseas. The Patch Place 909-947-3023 P.O. Box 2648 fax 909-923-8623 Chino, CA 91708 lauriepatchplace@aol.com RE G&J. We used this company to make a unit three-numeral patch with the unit's number of years of service (gold bar) printed as part of the red numeral patch. They were very responsive and quick and pricing was good. G&J Patch & Pin 8974 Jasmine Lane, South Cottage Grove, MN 55016 www.patchandpin.com/index.htm 800-680-4250 RE WELCH. I have used this company to make about 4 patches for both boy scouts and girl scouts. They have always done really fantastic job of working up the artwork based on either my extremely amateurish art, or even upon a description of what we wanted. We even had them make up a unique patrol patch for one of our patrols that had some imagination and it came out indistinguishable from BSA issue. Prices good. This company represents that they manufacture in US, and I have no reason to disbelieve them. Welsh Industries Ltd. 815-756-1111 2201 Sycamore Road fax 815 756-1224 Dekalb, IL 60115 sales@welshind.com (This message has been edited by denver4und@aol.com)