denleaderamy

What's the best course of action when a Webelos Campout is scheduled on the same day as a Pack campout? I am a Webelos Den leader and picked a date that would work for my family and my Den's families, chose a spot, made a reservation, and planned the event two months in advance. (All of my boys are very sports involved and all have games at various times and places.) Our Pack had a tentative date picked for a family Pack level campout. The date is the same for both events. The Pack event is still listed as tentative with no location (the date is less than a month away) and we had a Pack campout this weekend. My CM is upset that we didn't coordinate our schedules. He offered April to me as an option for my den. What are your recommendations? Do I cancel my event or not attend the Pack event?

Yes, my answer has been the same. We have had friends tell us that if we have a spot open up, they would love to be in the Den. My answer is the same, it was an agreement made between my ADL and myself upon forming a new den. So, yes if my son asked me if his buddy could join, I would say he is welcome to join Cub Scouting but that our den was full right now. Did we hand select the den? Absolutely not. We told the CM we would form a den. He sent out an e-mail to all asking if anyone would like to transfer into the new den and within 30 minutes we were at 8. Are we closed to making new friends? Nope. In fact we go out of our way when interating with the Pack to break our boys apart and mix them in with the younger boys and make sure that everyone is involved. Are we a clique? Nope. We are open to working with others. If the den had a boy drop out, the den would be happy to take in an additional scout. The parents in the den have always known that our limit was 8. Many of them are involved in Girl Scouting or Coach teams of their own and feel that there need to be firm limits in place. I will see the CM and CC this evening. We'll wait and see what they say.

This might already be here someone and I just haven't located it. Does anyone know when the new belt loop requirements will be released? Thanks in advance!

I guess I continue to respond for the same reason you feel the need to post asking why I am posting. I was defending my character. It was my original thread, I will continue to read and reply as needed. Don't like it? Don't read it. There is no need to be snippy.

Basement Dweller and all others, I am sorry for the outburst in response to BD post. Speak your mind. But I want to say this, if anyone should understand this issue, it should be you. "This weekend there was 10 boys with two adults, we had three but one fell ill and had to leave. We spent the entire event dealing with behavior issues with these two boys not listening, speaking over the presenters, just being disruptive to the group. The 8 other boys were all about what was going on so no issues. We survived the event and the boys were rude on the way back to the pick up point to everyone in the car and started fighting with each other...I joined scouts to be with my son, I have fond memorys of my scouting experiences and feel there behavior is having a negative impact on the group. I hesitate to plan any events now because of these two boys, because they always attend, We are babysitters for their parents. With day camp and resident camp looming I am AFRAID of being stuck with them for a week. A parting note, These two boys and the thought of dealing with them has made me consider leaving scouting or at least changing packs. I was awake last night wondering what to do." That was pulled from your posts May 19, 2008. Now, what's the difference between 8 and 10?

BasementDweller, You are right. Selfish, that's what I am. Why didn't I think of that? The hours spent at Roundtable, taking online training, attend CSLS and OWLS trainings. All because these are just things that sound like fun. Updating the tracking software and helping parents understand what is required of their boys. How dare I? Spending hours creating materials, preparing activities, and arranging fun and interesting outings, researching skits and planning service projects. Shame on me? Numerous hours spent hiking, camping, fishing, bowling, crafting, skitting, exploring, creating, building, painting, racing, and who can count what else, with the boys. The nerve of me! I am not looking for the awards and recognition that I can receive. I am doing MY best to help the boys move along, have great experiences and enjoy this time of their lives. And trust me, they do. Come on. Really? You are really going to call me selfish? No, we don't do snacks. Yes, I take up dues when necessary. And as I have said, in a previous response, the money is but a tiny factor. 2 more at a table of 8, no big deal? Yes, actually it is. It's the difference between buying two packs of Hot Dog Buns or one pack. Not that buns are an issue here, just making a point. Maybe you should take a walk in someone elses shoes before you start name calling. Yes, I am saying "I" because that's who is writing this. All I can say is "Wow." And you seem a little snippy too. Maybe you have too many boys in your den. lol

On the contrary, if you look at the time of my post, it was 11:31pm and I was logging off for the night. Honestly, I thought the post would die rather quickly as it probably would not be on the top of the page and most people aren't going to scroll through all of the posts. Note too please that I said Thank you for your thoughts. That was to all that had replyed, not just to those that supported my decision with me. I wasn't trying to spark a debate and it looks as though, many people feel strongly one way or the other. I was looking for an answer. Can my Cub Master force me to take more boys? Yes or No. I think it is very interesting the responses I received. I know where my convictions stand whether I am oppossed or supported. A few strangers telling me their feelings behind it is not going to sway my stance on the issue. Although, I do appreciate their knowledge and experiences. I will do what is best for the boys. We all disagree on many things, that's what makes things interesting. But, it was in all matter of speaking, a simple question. Also, we have already said, we would be happy to meet as Webelos Dens (altogether) some and make sure that everyone is heading in the right direction. as it is, I send my plans to the other leaders and any resources I create, I share with them as well. I am all about sharing the information and the effort. But, when it boils down to it, I am willing to take responsibility for 8. Do I want to exclude those not in our Den? Absolutely not. As I said, when one boys drops, we pick up another. If you are not wanting a little bit of Den competition, what is the purpose of the Den Cheer, Den Yell, Den Flags, and, for Webelos, Den Emblems? Is that not to set them apart a bit and get them workng as a team? I see there are those of us out there that keep a bit more structure within our dens and are comfortable doing that and there are those that, just open the doors and accept all and the program might not be as intense or things get done when they get done. To each his own, don't condemn me for limiting what I feel is the best number for our den to service.

Thank you for your thoughts. Thank you for your support. I will hold firm on this. I have always been a person to follow my gut instinct. I try my best to do what I feel is right. Maybe I will log in again and tell you how things turn out. It will be interesting. Keep on Scouting, I will do the same. Take Care.

Basementdweller, What do you mean?

I am not pushing boys out of the pack. Come on. I was just a mom. We were in a den of 14 and it was way out of control. We branched off and my assistant leader and I agreed, as teachers, that 8 boys of this age was more than enough and that was the maximum we would allow in our den. If someone dropped out, then we would consider it open and anyone could join. This group of boys are not a clique as you would say. They met at Cub Scouts. They were formed by an e-mail going out and the first 6 people to reply were a part of the den. It just so happens that they have formed an incredible bond and have become a large part of each other's lives. The dad (den leader) said his son just didn't want to do it anymore. He hasn't told his parents yet. My Cub Master told me that he would have to step up and take temporary leadership and he didn't want to do that because it is a big undertaking and would take a lot of time. His suggestion was to add the boys to the existing dens instead. My concern is this, when we came into this pack, we transferred in with our entire den. And it was known at the time that we would take no more than 8. If I say yes and allow them this time. Round-up will come around, we'll pick up 2-4 boys and before long we are a den of 12, which is close to what we left before. If these boys leave Scouting, it is not because of me. It would be the responsibility of the parents who don't step up and/or the Committee who doesn't recruit new leadership. Don't place blame on the volunteers. You can't overwhelm your leaders or the program as a whole suffers. Do we participate with the other Scouts? You bet your bottom, we do. We go to every campout, function, Pack meeting, you name it, we attend. Sometimes our 8 families are the only ones that do attend with the CM and Assistant CMs. It just so happens that our den does a lot. We encourage Pack Wide service projects and plan a number of things for the group. We have a lot of volunteer parents from our den. Popcorn Kernal, PR, Advancement Coordinator, Service Project Chair, and that's just from the parents in our den. So yes, our boys interact with the others quite well. I too, am a very busy person and although I love scouting and the ideals behind it, I am shocked to hear people say that if I don't take these boys in and they drop out of scouting, it is my fault. These boys are not foster children or orphans, they are boys with capable parents who can step us, just as I have to make sure the boys get the best out of the program. I spend my time going to trainings and round tables and planning and preparing, and I am still a volunteer. Will I be a life long Scouter? No. When my son is done, so am I. I never said expense was a primary concern for not wanting new boys. But, yes it does have an impact as well. CC knew when we came into this Pack that we would not budge from 8. At the time she was a Assistant Den Leader and their Den transferred in at the same time we did. We all left the same pack. She is a friend of mine outside of Scouting. She knows where I stand. I have not swayed on this since my den was formed 2 years ago. We had one move and a new boy jumped in the slot. A new scout. If you want your son to be in scouting, you should be prepared to step up when needed.

Let me add this. This group of boys that we have. They are all friends outside of scouting. They are all on the same sports teams and have similar interests. We see these people in other situations. I am also worried that new boys might feel left out because of the team spirit the boys already have. I am not looking for a fight. It just doesn't make sense to me. To add boys to a full den when you have a den that is not full. Not to mention round up and adding new scouts. What happens then? You over fill our dens and then new boys add at recruitment? That means our den sizes double. You are right, the program is for the boys. I know that, I understnad that, that is the reason I stepped up to be a leader. I saw my son was not getting what he should and I stepped up. I help in everyway I can and volunteer for everything possible. All I am asking is this "As a volunteer, don't I have the right to set certain limits that make the program manageable and beneficial to the boys?" We still work together as dens and do activities with all the bear boys (soon to be Webelos.) I am not asking if you feel it is right. In my experience the men seem to be willing to accept every boy and the women tend to set limits. The problem, is that when the numbers go up the quality of the program seems to go down. I don't see why parents can't step up to help and why a guilt trip is set on those of us who spend massive amounts of time to make the program the best it can be if we want limits. Consider it Quality Control.

Adding boys would impact my wallet. Because Scouting is not free. There are always expenses involved. As a leader, I often find myself absorbing some of these. As to where else the boys will go. Well, the other leader thinks more than 8 is too many as well. She presently has 6. If you have 4 boys, that means you have 4 perfectly capable sets of parents. Not to mention we are heading into round-up time when we will be adding more scouts to the pack as it is. The reason we began a new den was to leave a group that was too large. We weren't getting anything accomplished and it was pure mayhem. We split and formed our own den. We took boys from 2 other dens and formed our group. I don't think that it is right to ask those that already do so much, to do more than they are willing or capable of doing when you have others that do not volunteer for anything. Why can't their parents step up to leadership? All I was saying was this, I have a strong program because I keep it small, fun, and managable. If you overload leadership, there is a higher chance of burnout and then there is a bigger problem. The leader's son is not coming back. It is the remainder of the den that needs a new leader. I was just asking for some opinions. I would rather have a small, strong program.

We have a den of very solid 8 boys. They come to everything we do and rarely does 1 miss anything. I have myself and an assistant leader. We said from the beginnging (as Wolves, when we became leaders) that we would take no more than 8 boys. That is the number we feel is manageable. Other than a boy moving and then filling his spot from another interested person who was not involved in Scouting, we have had no dropouts or additions. We are presently Bears, moving into Webelos. Our Pack presently has 3 Bear dens, ours of 8, one den of 6 and one of 5. The leader of the Den of 5 has decided to drop out of scouting, the CubMaster only thinks that 2 of the remaining 4 will return. He has told me that he does not think he can honor my request to remain at 8. He wants to put 2 of the 4 in my den and 2 of the four in the den of 6. Bringing our numbers to 10 and 8. I am not interested in this plan at all. I have planned on handing off more bits of the responsibility to my boys in Webelos and feel that it is harder to manage more than 8. Can he force me to take more boys? This den (with the one exception) have been together in Scouting for 2 years now and they know and respect each other well, as do their parents. I am really worried that adding even one boy will have a negative effect on my boys and our program. (Not to mention, my wallet.) What do I do?

I was more thinking a race, literally, for the kids. As in the Kids are the racers. Probably more along the lines of an adventure race. The need for the Y? Well, they have a massive amount of land, with all of the necessary equipment for timing. I was thinking two kids, one adult racer, or one kid and one adult teams. The Y also has a rock wall, ropes maze, canoeing area. I was thinking have some mountain biking, running, maybe canoeing, and some mystery challenges along the way. Of course, they would get nice shirts and top teams medals or trophies. My goal is to get kids excited about racing and raise some money in the process. I was just wondering how this works with council and fundraising. I don't know how that part works.

I want to help our Pack run a fundraiser to purchase a Pinewood Derby track and timing equipment. My question is this: has anyone or does anyone know the rules about having a YMCA join in with the Pack to sponser a race (5K, biking, adventure, whatever kind of race)to benefit a Pack? It would be open to all kids in the area.