DengarOne

Thank You OldGreyEagle. I appreciate the reference.

Bob: This is taken directly form the BSA national web site: The board of review is the final step in the advancement. However, the members of the board of review are troop committee members who might not know the Scouts as well as the Scoutmaster. If a Scout's advancement is to be deferred, that should come at the Scoutmaster's conference. While the board of review is not a rubber stamp, the Scoutmaster should not approve the Scout at the Scoutmaster's conference and then expect the board of review to defer the Scout. Taken from this link: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/scoutmaster%20conference%20training.aspx

OldGreyEagle: I never said there was no one there, one of the scouts parents were there along with two assistant scoutmasters. Not to complain but I think some of you are reading too far into this or not understanding what you are reading. Here is some info: 1) The original project was approved. 2) The original greatly differed from the project plan and the youth showed very little if any leadership. 3) My involvement with the scout was strictly that of a scoutmaster, I asked how his project was going and contacted him trying to get him on track. His mentor also tried along with numerous others to no avail. We did not string him along or offer him any false hope, nor did anyone get involved outside what was asked of them 4) The scout never completed his workbook and said that his project was incomplete. 5) I know how the scouting process works, being an eagle myself and being involved in the program since a youth. I am trained and know what is required of me, if you read too far into my post or read it wrongly then I am sorry. I appreciate all the feedback but I need some answers. If you are going to critique then please do so within the confines of the questions, I think a lot of you are reading too much into this and not understanding. Thank You

Ursus: His mentor, a member of the committee, has tried working with him through this. He has gotten the same response as the rest of us. The don't think the responsibility has fallen on me, it is just that as the scoutmaster I have been getting a lot of the backlash from this. Bob White: I understand what you are saying, and am not trying to attack you here, but I am not going to socially promote a scout just so he can get a board of review or is running out of time. According to BSA literature the scoutmaster should not put a scout before a board that he feels isn't ready for the rank. This is taken from that literature Importantly, the Scout should be ready to review with the Scoutmaster any of the requirements for the new rank. The Scoutmaster must be satisfied that the Scout knows his stuff. By allowing the Scout to go before the board of review, he is saying, in effect, "I certify that this Scout is ready for his new rank." The board of review does not re-test the Scout, but the Scoutmaster can. At this time I am not prepared to send this scout before a board due to the fact that his Eagle Project was not completed according to the leadership aspect of what a scout should be doing during the project. Like I said, we haven't had a problem like this in the past. If I read what you said correctly, if he were to start a new project I should have complete another workbook and start anew. Correct? Thank You

I guess Ill try and be more descriptive. Ed: The scouts plan was to include the troop in his project. In his workbook plan it was to be the troop carrying out the project. A loose description of the project was collecting bicycles, fixing them up and delivering them to a charitable organization. The youth in the troop were going to be the collectors and deliverers of the bikes. The adults were going to be the fixers(we have 2 adults in the troop that own a bicycle repair shop, on paper they were supposed to be contacted during the project and never were, they even agreed to donate materials) Only 1 adult, outside of the troop helped. Upon looking at the hours in the scouts workbook, it is proven that he didn't have anyone else included besides one other scout for a 2 hour period, and that scout is his neighbor. The eagle candidate put an article in the local newspaper to contact him with bike donations and only he and his mother picked them up. I know this because he told me that in an e-mail. When asked why he didn't include the troop as was his plan he said, "I didn't think anyone was available."

Hello Everyone, I will try and be as descriptive as possible and I hope to get some responses to help out. If you can provide links to responses that need them that would be great. Our troop is having a problem with a life Scout working on his Eagle Project. Now this isn't just a now problem and has been going on for over a year. Let me explain. When this scout was 16 years in March of 2007, he had an eagle project approved by myself (the scoutmaster) the troop committee and the council rep. He went along with this project but the project failed. He didn't show adequate leadership, because he never contacted anyone to let them know when his project was being held. It was him, his mother, a family friend and another youth doing ALL of the work. His had changed his plan and meeting times and never told anyone. As the scoutmaster I wasn't notified of any new times or places to meet and help out and neither was the leadership corps or any scouts, there were times we had absolutely no progress on how his project was going. I had asked him at a meeting when he was going to start his project and his response to me was, "I already have and it is going great", I then asked him to notify me about it and he said, "Don't worry it is almost done". One incident, when he did notify the youth in the troop, had our youth troop members standing outside his house for 2 hours while he was away, They subsequently left due to his no show. In April of 2007 I sat down and talked with him. I told him he needed to get back on track and start showing leadership. I told him he needs to lead others to get the project done not do it himself.........3 weeks later, with a lot of the "same old, same old" he told me his project was complete. In May of 2007 myself and the advancement chairman sat down with two council reps and talked with them about this project problem. We told them what had happened and how there was no leadership by this youth. They told us to have a sit down with him and a family member and tell that youth that his project was incomplete that he needs to expand on it. They said that the project should continue with the same idea, BUT if that was impossible that he could do another project and if adequate leadership is shown then that would be good enough. They told me that as the scoutmaster I should not sign off his completed project if he does not do what a project should be. In June of 2007 we had the sit down with the youth and parent and told them what is required of him and how to go about completing this project. He said he would get on the ball during the summer and do what was needed. I told him to contact myself if he needed help and also had an Eagle scout that completed his project in 2005 offer help. During the summer meetings we talked with him but he seemed uninterested. I kept asking him if he needed help but his response was always the same. "I have a few ideas" when asked to elaborate he would say, "I would rather wait". From the fall of 2007 to the Spring of 2008 he basically disappeared. He had turned 17 in September and I understand there are other distractions in life. The meetings he did show up at he didn't mention his project. When I asked him about it he said, "I am working on a few things". Both myself and the Eagle Scout I mentioned above contacted him through e-mail numerous times and got responses that weren't encouraging or none at all. I checked the attendance and he showed up to 3 meetings and no outdoor activities from September to December. From January to May he showed up for 6 meetings and 1 camping trip. The weekend before Memorial day weekend I received an e-mail from him stating he wanted me to sign off his eagle project workbook so he could get his board of review. I informed him about the meeting we had with him in June 2007 and told him he still hasn't completed a project. He did not respond through e-mail but rather came down that week to our normal troop meeting and complain about how he tried to but was held back...etc etc etc. I told him that we would have a sit down with myself, the advancement chairman and the Committee chair and go over what he still needs to do. After that troop meeting I heard from two scouts in his high school grade that he was saying we are trying to sabotage him. That meeting with him and his parent was the first week of June 2008. We told him the same thing that was said in 2007. We got a lot of positive feedback from him and things looked good. As always we offered our help to him and he said he would let us know what he needed. It is now August 5th, he has an idea for a project that isn't related to what his last project was. He contacted me, not asking, but telling me, that I have to contact the youth in the troop and let them know when his project is since he doesn't have contact info (he does have the contact info I e-mailed it to him and he replied with a Thank You). It seems to be going down the same path as before. here are my concerns. 1) Can he just go ahead with a different eagle project than his original while still being on that plan? I understand that the workbook says the plan can change, but this much? If he does complete the project and show adequate leadership will the council and national look at this and approve his application? Will they deny it because this new idea never went to the committee and the council rep for approval? 2) While I do not want to be seen as holding him back it seems like he does not either understand or want to make an effort in the leadership of doing a project. I seem to be at wits end with this and both the advancement chairman and committee chair agree that he doesn't seem interested but is rather going through the motions. His mother is a person that has gone to the council to complain about bsa related things before. While she hasn't complained about our troop, I feel that if he does not show adequate leadership in his project and I do not sign him off for a completed project I will have to deal with another problem. Am I taking the right stand in sticking strong with my position on this project? Even though I have e-mails and documentation on his lack of project leadership and interest, will the council understand this if it comes down to that? I am not saying I will give him a pass, but I guess I am looking for assurance that I am doing the right thing. 3) He has less than 45 days before his 18th birthday. He does not have a plan in place for this new project idea. He just heard about this project and is running with it, and rather than following a plan he is playing it by ear. I see the pitfalls in this already and am talking with him about it and trying to explain what he needs to do. He is not being receptive, what can I do? 4) Have any other ideas to get him back on track? I know he has wasted a lot of time from last year to this year and feel he is rushing because his birthday is so close. 5) I will not sign him off if he does not show leadership. I say this because I want to know how other people (you) feel about this as an outsider. As a troop we have never had a problem like this before. All prior eagle candidates, while having some problems were able to get past them and fix them, usually by themselves. I am sure I left some details out and will try to fill them in if you have responses. If you want any in depth details such as what the project is or anything like that please e-mail me. Thank You in Advance

>It's quite possible that as a new leader you have confused some terminologies. There is in the BSA program positions called assistant scoutmasters for New Scout Patrols and assistant scoutmasters for Venture Patrols. The packet which I am looking at now says - ASM Patrol Advisor: also know as ASM of new scout and venture patrols. So that clears that up I hope=) >There are also 8 scout methods one is called the Adult Association Method and another the Patrol Method. Perhaps when going for woodbadge the terms got confused by the trainers. I remember them saying over and over again, use the adult patrol method, perhaps to give a link between youth and adult workings in the trooop? Could that be similar to the adult association method? >Is it possible you have confused these terms? Sorry if I confused anyone. Alfred Namendorf

>PLC meetings are designed for boy leaders. The SM is there only as an advisor. Additional adults alter the focus of the meeting and are detrimental. Yes I understand that, as SM I have taken an advisory role at the PLCM and helped when asked by the SPL. The ASM has been there on occasion to accomodate 2 deep leadership. He hasn't said much at the PLCMs in the past which is why I was confused at this situation. Alfred Namendorf

Here is some Info for you, to help clear some things up in my original post. >Second. If you want the scouting program to work you need to use the scouting program. Your Aren't! I am following the procedure handed down to me by the council, through council literature and our councils training. >ASM Patrol Advisor? This position was included in the Scoutmaster packet I received from our coucil, which is Northern New Jersey Council. It was 1 of 12 different ASM positions that the council allegedly has taken from national. If it is not a position then why is it included in our Council SM packet? >Adult Patrol Method? Adult patrol Method was first introduced to me at woodbadge. The council strickly inforced the use of the adult patrol method and even runs follow up courses called, "Using the Adult Patrol Method" >Adult Procedure? Another article included not only in our SM packet but our Committee packet as well from the council. >I have no idea what those are but they are not the scouting program. Take your assistants and attendt training as a team. It will help you avoid situations that could lead to this. I have taken the training as have many of my assisstants, if our council is setting the guidelines and using these terms and procedures then I am going to use them as well. Alfred Namendorf

Need some advice ASAP, troop and committee meeting tonight Friday April 22nd 7:30 PM EST, any help will be appreciated. The Problem. At the beginning of this year our scoutmaster stepped down and the troop committee elected me as the new scoutmaster. Being a member of the troop through-out my life and having earned Eagle scout in this troop, I accepted the position and vowed to complete the task to the best of my ability. At the committee meeting I was presnted with goals of the troop. The committee in return told me that the troop would run through me, all ASMs would pass their ideas through me, and the SPL wopuld work closely with me and my first assitant to create a program suitable for the entire troop. Things worked fine for the first month or so of the year. Recently though, we have had an adult return to the meetings after a long absense(he was coordinating use of the troop web site before he decided to attend meetings regularly). Basically he did not get along well with the old SM and now wanted to get involved again on a meeting and event level. I appreciated the help and gave him the responsibility of ASM Patrol advisor, which is what he asked to be. I told him the procedures of the troop and how if he had an ideas or concerns to pass them through me before embarking on them so we can talk about these ideas as a group. Recently he has been barking orders at the youth of the troop, going behind my back to change meeting plans and agendas and has even told me and other adults in the troop, "I am in charge of the patrols." On Wednesday of this week he tried to change nexts weeks PLC meeting to accomodate his schedule. He sent out a mass e-mail to the PLC members (without mine or the SPLs approval) telling them the PLC will be this week and tbasically saying that everyone should change their plans accordingly. When I received this e-mail I sent an e-mail out those PLC members and told them to disregard that message and to keep the regularly scheduled PLC meeting. After a few e-mail responses back and forth to him, I told him that all troop functions that conflict with a schedule need to go through me and the SPL. I added that he does not hold the authority to change any meetings or anything with-out going through the proper procedures which would be bringing it up with me and the SPL. His last e-mail response was quite derogatory, he basically questioned my leadership ability and also said, "You say I can't change or add meetings as I see fit. Why is that? Where does it say that?". He also challenged my abilities as scoutmaster and my knowledge of the adult patrol method and adult procedure. I am hard pressed to figure out what to do with this situation. I am angry that the situation has escalated, but am more angry that this adult does dont understand his role in the troop. Since we have a troop committee meeting tonight should I bring this up with them? I talked to one member and he said he would rather have me talk with this ASM on the side first with other adults present. Any advice is appreciated and if you feel I have done something wrong please explain so I can understand it also. Thank You in advance. Alfred Namendorf