DeanRx

Well, you could have no members, I guess. Here's the prickly part of the eqaution. I'd say the larger the unit, the more opportunity for disharmony, discord, and drama. Bottom line, you can't please everyone all the time (even when you do your best), and the more folks involved, the better chance you are going to rub someone the wrong way or visa versa. The solution is in HOW people handle themselves and others when differences of opinion or outright fights for control arise. If everyone were Trustworthy, Friendly, Kind, etc... it would be a non issue. Both parties would sit down, talk it out like rational folks, come to a compromise, and appologize for the misunderstanding in the first place. Problem is, adults and scouts all have trouble living up to the expectations of the BSA law. Funny thing, I hear lots of people (myself included at some points) stating that if person A did x,y,z then they should be asked to leave the unit. Great in theory. But, I have never seen it done in practice. Closest I've seen is an adulterous SM and ASM being asked by CO to take a 6 month break until their divorces were final! Not sure what else worse needs to happen in a unit to get someone removed aside from a YPG / Sandusky type situation (but then its a criminal matter, not a unit morals / vaules matter). But those folks are back on the job with many a confussed scout in the unit. Most volunteer leaders are looking to AVOID conflict (most often times at detriment to the unit even). They aren't being paid, nor are their fellow volunteers. One person might be a pain in the butt, but in reality if they show up and are willing to help, they are retained as a volunteer, and tolerated for their drama. It takes a COR, CC and SM/CM all in lock step to approach someone and state, "Thanks for your service to the unit, but your services are no longer needed." Most of the time, these key 3 do not have the intestinal fortitude to actually speak those words when its needed. Sometimes, its one of those 3 that NEED to have those words spoken to them, who's going to do that? When you're not paying anyone to do a job, poor performance of said job is often tolerated and overlooked. At least they are trying, right? So, in volunteer units (scouts, PTA, church groups, civic organizations, etc...) you have the perfect storm for conflict: 1) Adults involved that are all likely very passionate about what they are doing, a good deal of them thinking there may be more than one way to do something, but their way is probably the best way to be doing it. 2) A reluctance to act upon / fire / dismiss a drama-queen/king volunteer by the 'big 3' of a unit. 3) As the unit grows, the more diverse backgrounds and ideas lend to more options and diverse input, but also more opportunity for disagreement between individuals. How do you stop it? 1) Be a duck... let 99% of it roll off your back like water on a duck. If you're going to fall on your sword, make sure the hill is worth dying on. 2) IF you are one of the big-3, be willing to have some uncomfortable conversations with a few individuals from time to time. No need to threaten removal, but a very direct, "Hey, when you at like x,y,z it really puts a downer on the program and it makes it very difficult to provide a good program to the boys. I need to ask you to back off, or we may have to ask you to serve in another capacity." 3) Follow Through. No hallow promises or threats. 4) The unit needs by-laws identifying WHO gets (or has) to make the hard calls. Too many times I've heard "well its not MY troop it belongs to the CO and the boys...." B.S.!!! That's a cop out. The unit by-laws need to state which individuals (or group of key 3 to 4) have the power to place or remove an adult leader. Best to ID this group BEFORE they ever have to act, so there's no chance to be accused of railroading someone. Sure, BSA will tell you its the CO and COR's job, but when the fecal matter hits the fan, don't expect anyone from district or council to wade into the fray... you're on your own unit leaders. Have a plan and use it juditiously, but use it if need be. Finally, remember - its much harder to "manage" a group of volunteers than it is to manage a group of paid employees. Those of us who manage others as part of our day jobs know how taxing it can be, so don't expect it to be easier, just because its evening time and no one is on the clock. Its often more difficult.

NancyY- Hello and welcome. My first thought about your post was, WHY do you feel the need to change it up? If your fear is all you'll hear all night is "where's the haunted house?" Then obviously, the haunted house is a HUGE hit with the boys and its what THEY want. After chairing my 4th Pinewood Derby, I was ready for something else. But the boys (even the older ones) really get into it and remember, its practically brand new to the wolfs and will be for the Tigers!!! Before you go changing the program, you need to assess WHY the change. If its because the boys are bored with it, then fine. If the boys love it and the parents are bored with it (much like my son and his favorite pop song) - you play it again sam... My 2 cents is don't be looking to fix things that ain't broke. Dean

I like the 3-up / 3-down question myself... What was the last Troop outing you attended besides a Troop meeting? What are 3 things you liked about the outing and what are 3 things you would change / improve if you had the chance to do the outing over? Another insightful question is... What things bother you the most about the troop? If you were SM, how would you change that? I guess a view the SMC mostly about how the lad is getting on in the Troop and what he would change if he was in charge. Gives a good deal of feedback AND gives me insight into a scout's line of thinking and often gives a pretty good picture of what (if any) level of youth leadership he is ready for.

Instead of "free-time", call it "open-time"... then we usually have 2 to 4 "optional" activities to choose from... i.e. soccer, tag, horseshoe toss, fishing w/ parent, etc... Give them some guidance, but let the youth CHOOSE what they want and make the activities something YOU don't have to run or supervise too much. As for adventures - we have had a BLAST with a "survivor" type event based on cub scout skills at various ranks. We split the boys up with 1 Tiger, 1 Wolf/bear, and 1 Web1/Web2 per "team". Then have a start and finish point with stations in between. First team to complete the challenge is the winner. Example: Station #1 - Using a map and compass, head in x direction for 100 meters, find your next clue there. Clue #2, demonstrate how to tie a square knot. Station #3, recite the law of the pack, station#4, etc... You can include as many mental and physical obstacles as you wish, just need an adult at each station to tell them when they've "passed". Try to keep the distances short and near camp, still a good idea to send 1 adult with each team (especially on and orienteering type station). It reinforces their skills and helps the littler ones learn from the older cub scouts. We've done tracking games, where we send an adult leader off with "hoof" prints tied to their shoes. Given them a 10 minute head start and see if the boys can "track" their prey. Steal the bacon or capture the flag are great adventure games as well. We also had a big rope and played den vs den tug-o-war, or better yet all-scouts vs all-dad tug-o-war. Hope some of these ideas are useful to you. Dean

Hyponatremia eh? I'd bet my last 5 years salary it was NOT EAH. Not sure of your quote about 10-30% of endurance atheletes being over-hydrated. The military recruiting illnesses and deaths, yes they are documented. I was active duty Army at the time. There is more to the cases than simple over-imbibing of h2O. Here's the thing. Unless the kid had some type of compromised kidney function, the likelihood he could be drinking enough water to cause an electrolyte imbalance is pretty much nil. Especially assuming he consumed SOME type of food in the same day. Anything, trail mix, jerky, cliff bar, etc... would have enough electrolytes to pretty much make up for whatever diluting was going on in his fluid intake. Second, unless the kid is pissing like a cow on a flat rock and its clear as moonshine... it NOT hyponatremia. Again, the kidneys are great filters and will start shedding the excess water long before an imbalance occurs. Third, the way to avoid any type of issue with this... have every 2nd to 3rd intake of fluids contain a 1/2 to 1/3 parts sports drink / Gatorate / etc.... type of fluid. Not full strength, its made WAY TOO sugary and osmotic to be any good for you. It should be about 50% water and 50% sports drink mixed together and drank. Again, unless you have some underlying nephro issue no one knows about, this should keep you pretty even keel on the water to salt ratio. Finally, when in doubt - treat it as dehydration. Heat stroke can and will still happen in a well hydrated person. Cool compresses, move to the shade, loosen clothing, and the good old dump a small bucket of water over their head and clothes does wonders for most folks. Evac to a cooler place (indoors w/ AC) and seek secondary attention. Sorry for the hi-jack of the thread - but it really concerns me when potential misinformation is posted regarding common field medical concerns. I would NOT want someone to second quess themselves on proper treatment for dehydration because they're thinking in the back of their mind, "Hmmm, it could be hyponatremia." Thats like stating you don't wear your seatbelt in a car, just in case it goes off the road into the lake, so you can get out faster and not drown.

Dremel and hand held sander are banned ?!?!? I think every cub scout uses these (or at least watches their dad use them) to make every pinewood derby car I've ever seen! Dean

Went to an annual planning meeting on Saturday with scout son for his Troop. Boy led, they have some challenges, but all in all its a good group. Well, they start in deciding what the unit wants to do over the course of the next year and a half... Many times, the adults in attendance had to stop the lads and ask them to THINK about how realistic the activity was or how much it would COST and how the funding would appear. I think much of the time with adults as well as kids - people wish to do big things. Its great to plan and dream big. If you don't, then you'll never really challenge yourself to do more than you think you can. However, that pesky reality often rises up. I see it in business plans, in church councils, in BSA units. We're going to do X,Y,Z this year... um, yeah... with what additional people and with what additional budget? The idea that most of the folks sitting around the table making the choice are already at their limit (both in vol time and disposable income) to do much more without eliminating something else off the agenda. Its great to want to do things, but you must have the manpower and $$ to do those additional things. It is often overlooked or even moreso, taken into account, but the reality of the logistics is minimized.... "Oh, that'll just cost $50 more per scout and 2 more aduly vols to go along." When in reality, it costs $200 more per scout and you need 3 to 4 adult vols and you get 1 to step up! Then everyone is disappointed that the plan didn't work out. Its not that the plan failed, its that you failed to plan in reality! Its a symptom of our entire nation. Goverments put out new laws and mandates without funding HOW they are going to enforce it. Companies try to WILL increased sales out of their staff with no additional $$ for marketing or new product or additional salespeople. Volunteer units overestimate their fundraising and underestimate the vol hrs needed to pull off an event ALL THE TIME~! Does it mean we are bad people? No. Does it mean we are setting ourselves up for failure? Maybe. Does it mean it'll be harder than last year to pull off a quality program, YES. But its also in those small incremental reaches past what we think can be done, that economies, and nations and scouts actually expirience GROWTH.

Yeah, Just another District guy showing up, stirring the pot, then handing the heavy lifting work off to the unit level volunteers. Your lucky the CM didn't either quit or come across the table at you. If the unit leaders didn't have a back to school night round-up set-up there might be a good reason for it. Its their unit, their school, and their turf, so back off! If I was the CM and unable to make the round-up night (on the date that YOU decided for him), and it turned out you doubled the size of my unit (with or without enough adult volunteers to go with the enrollment increase), I'd likely be finding a new pack for my kid to join, or worse yet, not be involved in scouting. And yes, Mr. BS-87, the role of the commish and the DE is to GROW scouting, but not to the detriment of those already involved. If you cannot see WHY this guy was way over the line, it explains a great deal about WHY their is so much distain and friction between UC/DC, DE and the local unit volunteers in so many districts and councils !!! The surest way to loose your unit vols is to sweep in, make more work for them, undermine them, and then leave them to pick up the pieces. Sounds EXACTLY like what happened in this situation. YiS, Dean

Don't forget the packets of Top Ramen and boxes of Mac-n-Cheese... a staple of both backpackers and college students !!

The largest obstacle to den chiefs is TIME. The Boy Scout is already going to at least ONE scout meeting a week for his troop and likely at least ONE patrol meeting every other week (or sometimes once a week). Then you have weekend outings with the troop at least once a month. Trying to ADD on an additional meeting two to three times a month for a pack meeting and den meeting(s) means the Boy Scout has at least a meeting every week and most likely multiple meetings every week! Add in one additional extracurricular activity (sport, band, drama, debate, etc...) and the Boy Scout is overbooked at that point. So, unless the aim of scouting is to make the kid choose BSA over another activity (which I do not think it is) - the idea of Den Chiefs is great in theory but overlooks what many adults overlook when trying to put together a perfect system - TIME! Realistically, how much TIME do you expect a Boy Scout to put into the program on a weekly basis and not get burnt out? We joke about 1 hour a week for adult leaders and know its not even close to being true. Most adults are not coaches on top of BSA leaders and even fewer have work they bring home every night (i.e. homework) like these kids do. You really got to take a hard look at the TIME expectation before you expect these boys to spend all their weeknights mentoring cubbies. Again, I think its great in theory, but pretty impractical in reality. Dean

Yeah, it was OGE incognito...

Tim, Welcome and thanks for the reminder. To many long time posters, we tend to forget how some banter may appear to a newbie or a lurker on the boards. That said, I have seen very little in the way of put downs or personal attacks on these boards. There used to be a couple folks, but they have moved on to other endevours, or they got their accounts closed down. With that said, I like the fact that there is spirited debate on these boards. Especially in the controversial topics of the big 3 (gays, girls, atheists) for the BSA. It involved passionate beliefs on both sides of these issues and it is one (if not the only) place an open and honest discussion on these issues can take place in the organization. The fact that some folks are very blunt shows me you are at least getting an honest heartfelt response. Many times in live conversations, folks will hold back or attenuate their opinion because they don't want to offend, or not to hurt someone else's feelings. The good (and bad) part of being online, is this is less apt to happen, so you get a more honest reply. My 2 cents, hang around, share your thoughts and get a thick skin. There is a LOT of useful info to be had on these boards, even from the people who disagree.

You're in a very tough spot, no doubt. One thing with regards to the SPL position... what about ASKING the BOYS? Ask them the pro's and con's of the current method and the pro's and con's of an election (I would suggest a vetting of candidates by the adult leaders) by the scouts. That way the scouts get to decide, but the adults get to make sure the scout(s) being voted on meet the 1st class requirement AND have the maturity and willingness to do the job! Its one step closer to boy led (which it appears in the direction you would like to go). The other issues... IF (and its a big if) you decide to take on the SM job, then I suggest making a prioritized list of things that you would like to change. You are not going to turn this tanker ship around swiftly and you need to know which issue(s) are the most important and should be acted on first. The whole 3 former SM's on the council is a troubling start. The ONLY way I see it working is IF you get agreement that the committee is in charge of the BUSINESS of the unit and you as SM are in charge of PROGRAM. Then hold the committee to that promise. Make them stay in their lane. They handle the business, you handle the program. Get a couple like-minded ASM's at your side ASAP. Better yet, have them lined up and appoint them as ASM's as your first duty as the new SM. That way, you have other "program" people in your corner that will want to run the unit in a similar fashion as you do. Bottom line - sounds like you may be butting heads with the incoming CC (outgoing SM). You need to have an understanding (maybe even written in the unit bylaws) as to WHO has the final say when the big two adult leaders in the unit are on opposite sides of an issue. The longer I play in this scouting game, the more I'm convinced that the BEST service a former leader can give is to have a defined transition time (say 3 to 6 months), then get the heck out of the way. Take a sabatical, or if their kids have aged out, go do something else. As I've been on both ends of such a transition (going on my second time now), I've learned one hard truth... It is impossible for a new leader to LEAD, when an old leader is still in the leadership mix. Works that way in business, in politics, and sure as heck works that way in BSA units. You want to do the incoming leader a favor? As outgoing CC, SM, whatever... train them up, set them up for success, then get the heck out of there! SM's and CC's trading places happens a lot from what I can see, but it sure seems to cause more trouble than good in the long haul.

I think a couple of you might be overstating the facts a little, but yes, the diagnosis is on the rise in the past generation. ADD/ADHD, OCD, ODD, whatever label you'd like to use, is likely over diagnosed in a lot of cases. You get a lad who can't sit still in class, has his recess and PE time truncated by an overburdened and underfunded school system and we sonder why these cases are on the rise? The other facet is BOTH the parents and the school system (and society at large to a degree) are quick to absolve a youth from RESPONSIBILITY once a diagnosis is made, "Oh, thats just how Johnny is, he has ADHD you know...." Well no, I don't know and I'm pretty well trained in this field. I'm not a pediatrician, nor a head shrinker, but I just don't get why once you label the condition, it "frees" the patient from the responsibility of the symptoms. Yet, that is all too often what happens. The diagnosis becomes a crutch, an excuse, a reason to misbehave and a reason to fail in school, in social settings, and in life. I'm not suggesting that the lad in the OP's thread is not a true ODD case. But it sure sounds like mom and dad are at best using BSA as a respite and babysitter for their wayward son and at worse are not only taking respite, but using his diagnosis and condition as an excuse for not addressing his unacceptable behaviors. Happens all too often.

Where were these kids 40 years ago? They were there, just a different label applied to them, I would guess. One of the problems with defining a disorder, is that while it helps to categorize treatment options, it also can have a negative effect on acountability for anti-social symptoms. Just because medicine has defined it, does NOT absolve one from the consequences of the anti-social symptoms. Alcoholics are not absolved from the consequences of drunk driving, nor should they be. Diabetics are not absolved from the consequences of poor diet and blood glucose control. Folks with obesity secondary to a thyroid disfunction are not absolved from the complications of being overwieght. One: you are a volunteer, not a professional. The pros can barely handle kids like this, its more than you should be asked to take on. Two: Parents need to stay for meetings. Even if the kid acts out with parents in attendance, then you and parents need to agree ahead of time, what is the outcome? Remove from the activity for the day? a few minutes? forever? Have this understanding BEFORE the next outburst, so there is no discussion, just action when the need arises. Three: Any threats to others (especially other youth) must be grounds for removal from the program. I know the kid might not be able to help himself, but that does NOT mean the other kids in the unit must be subjected to bullying or physical violence to accomodate one scout's special needs. Best of luck - this is a tough situation with very few easy answers. I don't want to be pessimistic, but I would be surprised if the scout and family stick around in BSA for very long.

Oh Beavah, Don't you know that once you start talking about people's naughty bits, all common sense goes out the window? If you even THINK that it MIGHT look a LITTLE like abuse, you MUST call the cops or YOU are a felon on the same level as the alleged abuser!!!! This is WHY YPG sucks for BSA. The pendulum for many people has swung too far to the other extreme that rational adult thought and judgement are not even part of the discussion any longer. If it has to do with naughty bits, you MUST report it. You MUST demonize and slander and liable someone's reputation and scouting career, because after all - you are protecting the scout. YPG is about being aware. Its about being on the lookout for things that just-don't-look-right. Its about being informed so you don't put yourself in a bad situation or allow another scout or scouter to be put in a bad situation. It is NOT about a witch hunt. It is NOT about a leader on a campout who confiscates a Playboy or an iPhone with naked pitctures on it and not calling the cops because of it being accused of a felony. Here's a news flash folks... anyone can sue anybody for just about anything. I have patients threaten to SUE me if I don't renew their narcotic prescription. I have patients (and regulatory agencies) that threaten to sue / sanction me if I do renew it. At the end of the day, I have to make a best case judgement call from my professional standpoint. Any DA can charge you with ANYTHING and try to make it stick. Any DA worth their salt and wanting to keep their job, uses discretion in vetting cases so they don't look like fools or they loose their job (remember the little fiasco with the Duke Lacrose team a few years back)? How about adults grow up and actually LIVE the 10th point of the scout law? Yes, be BRAVE. Be BRAVE enough to make a judgement call that doesn't involve relagating your responsibility to a 3rd party? Better yet, get a GROUP of adults together (3 or 4) and come to a consensus on what the best course of action is. Take into account the CIRCUMSTANCES and INTENT of the offender and ACT accordingly. Then if BSA or a local DA comes after you, you have a quorum to lean on. "Well, all the adults got together at the time and discussed it and decided that this was the best course of action given the circumstances...." Then you are not standing alone with a unilateral decision. Most issues do NOT need the intervention of a DE or SE, and even fewer need the attention of local law enforcement. How the heck does a post about a kid with a smut mag on a campout turn into a DEBATE about insurance law and mandatory reporting of child abusers? If we (as a group of adult leaders) are REALLY this sideways over a simple issue like this, what the hell are we doing LEADING young adults in the first place? The average teenager would look at this thread and think we're a bunch of idiots, unable to come to a rational conclusion about a very realistic "mistake" by a youth! No wonder most teenagers think adults are nuts!

I put this into the category of... If they're not upset enough to let me know about it (and then I stop right away), then it must not be upsetting to them. Nicknames are just that, unless they are derogetory. Who gets to say they are? The person who's nickname it is!! I supervise several people at my job. I HATE it when you have someone come to you and state, "So and so thinks x,y,z... but they'll never come to you and tell you about it." Well then, its NOT an issue. If its not a big enough deal for them to come to their supervisor about it, then they shouldn't send a proxy (most of the time its the proxy who has the issue but is too spineless to state their point or is trying to use other 'silent' partners to bolster their position on an issue). Nicknames fall into the same category for me.

yeah, this is where the ADULT LEADERS really need to do their job. If we're in camp and someone (anyone - camp staff or otherwise) walks into our camp area and I don't know them, they are going to get a, "Hi, how you doing? Is there anything I can help you with?" from me pretty darn fast. Its part of that whole mentally awake thing in the oath. I had a guy show up at a unit meeting in uniform with a unit commisioner patch on. He introduced himself and I told him I had not received word from him or from district or council that he would be attending our meeting that night so would he mind coming back another time and let me or the CC know about the attendance ahead of time. Found out from council that the guy was on his way out of BSA (non YPG related issue) and had been a UC, but had no reason to be showing up to our unit's meeting other than he was wanting to still be "in the program". Probably not a harmful guy, but some folks don't know when or how to let go... Would hate to see the potential outcome of this guy in FL if he had chose to do the same and show up posing as a UC unannounced at a unit that is less than dilligent in their vetting of visitors. Bottom line - if they are NOT registed as part of your unit, they are suspect until proven otherwise.

Yeah SP, Shoulda, coulda, woulda.... Here's the thing. If you confiscate, inform the parents and maybe the camp director (if its a council ran camp), then fine. If you inform the SE over some porn found on a unit campout, its overkill. If the kid is found out months later to be producing the content, then you deal with what you know about at that time! You can't be blamed for not acting on what you didn't know about. Its a HUGE assumption to jump from porn (either 1-2 magizines in print, or some images on an electronic device) to a producer of under-aged smut. I would suggest if that is what the youth is up to, and its not found out until later and is blamed on being overlooked when "some porn" turned up on a campout. Then your issue is not the porn, but the lack of oversight of the youth in the unit! You catch a kid with a cigarette (or even a joint) on a campout. Now, I agree fully that its ground for reporting to the parents and severe unit discipline. But, I would not automatically jump to the conclusion that he is dealing drugs to all the other scouts in the unit! If you make all your decisions based on the worse case senerio of what COULD happen, you'll curl up in the fetal position and never leave your home!

Hey, quit coming in and out of the house to use the bathroom! You need to go, go in the bush... Oh, you need to go #2, then just in Tom's yard.... PRICELESS

Sounds like Basement has a lot of good ideas and expirience in this area. I'd just be careful not to try and make the program into something that its not. Offering to feed folks is a worhtwhile idea, but if it is the only reason people are showing up, then it is really just you running a soup kitchen, not running a scouting program. If you unit wants to do this as a service project, then great. It will likely open their eyes to something they never think happens in "their" town / city. I had some expirience with this doing outreach medicine while in college. Couldn't get folks to show up for treatment OR food at a local shelter. When we walked the streets and TALKED to homeless people,we found out why. The shelter was Christian based (fine good church folks trying to do the lords work). But, they had a policy that a person HAD to sit through their gospel sermon (usually about the pitfalls of drugs and alcohol) to get to the medical and food part. Well, even the homeless decided they didn't want to be force fed salvation just to get to some free food and a free primary care visit! They know they shouldn't be using, they know they're addicted. The last thing they needed someone preaching to them was how they needed to stop. I'd say best of luck and God's speed. Keep your service life and private life VERY seperate. While homelessness is often a temporary thing for families, there are often underlying reasons (drugs, alcohol, psychosis) that play into the long term situation. Don't go in thinking you are going to save the world. Expect that some (if not most) will not welcome you and most all will question your motives. Be EXTRMELEY careful about YPG !! I would not be surprised at all for a false claim to be leveled either as a profit motive, or just to get your unit out of "their" domain. Don't set yourself or anyone else up to be subject to such a claim. Many adults / parents in this demographic can only see someone wanting to interact with a child as someone who wants to cause the child harm. (why else would you want to interact with a child? A child is a need, they need things, they are viewed as a burden to many homeless families. Some of the kids are the mother's lasting reminder of a man who knocked her up and fled, or worse yet beat her until she fled with the child! So if you want a "burden", you must be wanting something in return) These are kids that are wondering where the next meal is coming from and if they'll have parents next week. Hard to get them to sit down and discuss LNT or scout skills when they likely don't even get to their homework every night (if they attend school). Its a very worthwhile endevour and I think you are wonderfully brave for wanting to try it. Just don't go in with rose colored glasses. People from the streets are used to a whole different set of social realities and rules than one might expect. Best of luck. Dean

I reallty think all this boycott stuff boils down to this... 1) Chick-fil-A... maybe you agree with their CEO's comments or maybe you don't. I'll eat there because its in the area when I'm hungry and want a chicken sandwhich. Its a decent meal at a fair price. period. They get their prices too high or quality too low, I'll go to the competition. 2) Dixie Chicks... here's the thing, yes most country fans are extremely patriotic. But in general, most US folks don't like to mix their politics and music / entertainment. Just becuase you have a microphone and can sing / dance / act / etc... do NOT assume your buyiing public wants to hear a political speech from you! This goes for both sides of the isle. These people are ENTERTAINERS and should still to what they do best. Most of the time I am listening to music, it is to TUNE OUT all the BS in the world (especially the political stuff). So the signers and actors should stick to their craft and entertain people. If I want political speech, I'll go to a politcal event. I think that is what happened with the dixie chicks. As for a boycott of Disney, really HOW can you do that? Yes, you can NOT go their theme parks, but they OWN several media companies and PIXAR. If there ARE families out there avoiding ALL their stuff, I'd guess they just don't watch TV or movies at all! That would be a small fraction of the ultra conservatives I would think. Again, people flock to Disney not because of their gay acceptance policy. They put out some of the BEST family entertainment going. Have done so for over 70 years. If they stop making good productions, then their market share will dry up. I know extremely FEW people who's first thought when deciding to spend their hard earned cash is "Hmmm, wonder what this company's policy stance is on homosexuality or the current president or x,y,z..." Nope, their 1st thought is, "Is this adequate quality for the price I'm being asked to pay for this good or service?". Basically, you give a good value and folks will do business with you. You give a poor value (in quality, quantity or service) and they go elsewhere. P.S. - I'd be interested to know if Dollywood has an anti-gay policy in their park or if they just get the anti-Disney folks by default?

Yeah SP, I agree we are TRAINED to BSA stansards, but the adults are also supposed to use good JUDGEMENT. I'm not suggesting that one ignore the YPG rules as published by BSA. However, I do believe the regulations are written in a broad sense for a couple reasons. The first is to try to cover as many varried issues that they can think of (and some they haven't thought of yet). The second is to leave it open to interpretation and discretion of the ADULT LEADERS involved. That is the whole point of being the ADULT leader!! I do NOT think that we do any good for anybody boys or BSA when we apply the guidelines blindly, overzealously, or in an manner that is only to CYA - and not take into account the CONTEXT of the situation and the intent of the offender(s). That doesn't guide boys into being strong men, it destroys long term goals (i.e. labelled a sex offender) for a single time lapse in judgement by a teenager. If we had the same standards applied a generation ago, many of us would likely be barred from working with the youth we serve currently.

That's a nice thought Beavah, but there's a slight problem with it... You start your own organization Scouting USA or such. Fine. Problem is, you are LOCKED OUT of all program materials, ALL uniform standards, ALL ranks in use by BSA to include the Eagle. BSA owns copyright on ALL of those things. Not to mention the fact BSA would likey refuse to allow use of BSA camps (even if you paid for them) for a competiting organization. Local option is just asking for the same consideration for local units that want inclusion (whatever that inclusion may be - gay, atheist, female, or all three or a combo of them) as is already afforded to LDS units. As a lawyer, you have to see the irony of a "private" organization that allows for one set of adjusted standards (LDS units), yet refuses to allow for an opposing set of standards in the same manner. All the while seeking (and getting) both public and private donations to fund its activities. If its OK for LDS to tweek it to their needs, then other units should be allowed to tweek it to their needs. No one is saying take "god" out of the picture. You can still have a scout law that states "reverent" or replace it with spiritual, or whatever term fits the local unit's intent without changing the whole program. I don't understand why folks see it as an either / or situation, when set up correctly, it these different types of units can co-exist at the same time. Dean

We have co-ed units from Mexico at our counicl scout fair every year in San Diego... I think it would be a good thing. Doesn't seem to affect the scouts from south of the border. Most of Europe already operates this way. No sure about Canada, but I do know USA is in the minority not being coed. Dean