DeanRx

ScoutNut's right... The choice lays w/ the family of the scout. However - I take issue with there is no 'Webelo'. It is the singular form of 'Webelos'... otherwise the plural of 'Webelos' would be what? Webeloi ? Just kidding.... As for the other scouts, I'd talk to them about staying with their Webelos 2 Den. Remind them that they can't earn the AOL once they bridge over to Boy Scouts. Do they want to give up that opportunity just to race ahead to something that will be waiting for them when the time comes? If you are associated with the Pack (as your screen name suggests), be glad this mother is taking her 11 y/o to Boy Scouts - you don't need the headache in your pack !!

Goose22.... this is Maverick - requesting a fly-by...... (sorry just couldn't help it) Anyways - hang in there. Tiger DL is the hardest job in all of cubs.. WHy? B/C everyone is new (including you) and don't know what to expect. Also, you have to coordinate 5 field trips. That's a pain in the backside that is not placed on any other den leader posistion, yet BSA finds it a good thing to do to their "new recruits"... I think its fine in theory, it sucks in practice. Getting 5 to 8 families all on the same page for the go-see-its is hands down the most difficult task. Do each one ONCE - only once !!! If someone misses it, then tell the parents they need to do the go-see-it as a family and have little Johnny tell you what they did at the next Den meeting, then sign it off. Other than that - I agree with what everyone else has said. I went from Tiger DL last year to the Cubmaster position this year.... so a couple more grains of wisdom from someone who's just lived the Tiger year: 1) Be the taskmaster. If you're doing a craft next den meeting, then get one parent to volunteer to bring the supplies, get antother to bring the Crayons, etc.... this pulls parents into being involved without overwhelming them. 2) Find out where all the parents work - these are in roads for go-see-its !!! 3) Put the parents on the spot (in a nice way) durring the den meetings. EXAMPLE - we were doing a craft. After explaining what we were going to do, I stated, "OK, now the adult helpers should each get with their scout and begin...." All the parents who had been hanging in the corner of the room didn't even budge as the Tigers started their craft. I then said "STOP ! O.K. - Tigers go get your mom/dad and bring them back to the table to HELP YOU with your craft ....". It was fun for the kid to get to boss the parent for a change and a little friendly embarrasment drove the point home that they were supposed to be ENGAGED in the activity WHITH their child, not hanging on the sideline. 4) WHY? worry about being done with rank by Blue and Gold? Yes, its a nice goal, but don't sweat it. The one thing you want to avoid is your entire den getting their rank in the same Pack meeting that they bridge to Wolf... so have it done BEFORE the last Pack meeting of the year (at the latest)!!! Other wise you have a meeting where they get congratulated on earning the Tiger Badge, then later in the same meeting they bridge and become a Wolf.... not cool. My goal would be to have the Den be complete with rank at least 2 months before they bridge to wolf (if bridging is May, then aim for March / April).... that way they spend the majority of the year EARNING their rank, but still have a couple Pack meetings to ENJOY BEING THEIR RANK, before they start concentrating on the WOLF requirements. 5) As a final thought - if push comes to shove and you can't encourage a parent or two to participate, then place a phone call (or better yet have a face to face meeting - 5 to 10 mins). Explain that this is NOT youth sports and you are NOT the coach. Make very clear that the quality of expirience their son will have is directly linked to THEIR level of involvement. Those that want to make it good for their kid will step up, those that don't will drop out. Those that drop will make it easier for you to provide a quality Den and quality program for those families that are committed to it. Don't let 10% of the parents become 90% of your problems... Best of luck- Feel free to e-mail or IM me if you have further concerns. I don't have all the answers, but no use re-inventing the wheel if you don't have to. DeanRx

WElcome Tina ! Wow ! 80 boys in the pack... that'll keep you busy. Hope you find usefull info here. Dean

Hey Theresa - Welcome to the forums. What part of Iowa? I grew up in Nebraska, but now am out in California. Hopefully you guys weren't involved in the tragedy at "Little Sioux". Anyways - welcome and hope you find some usefull info on these boards.. Dean

Our pack pays for Belt loops and ALL other awards earned by the scouts. We even pay for the neckerchief and slide for the next rank when they "cross-over" in the spring. We look at these things as 'program' costs and budget accordingly. How much does your pack charge in annual dues? How much fundraising does the pack do? These two things will greatly influence what is and is not included at 'no cost'. Otherwise, packs that run tight on funds often have to institute an ala carte type attitude towards buying things throughout the year.... In addition to the awards, neckerchief and slide, our pack also includes the Boys Life subscription, pays for ALL pinewood kits, Space Derby kits, and Raingutter Regatta kits as well as all trophies associated w/ each event. Then again - we have an annual pack dues of $80 per scout and expect everyone to participate in popcorn fundraising or "buy-out" their scout's portion. We make it known at the start of the year... this is what we are budgeting for, this is how much we have and this is what we need to earn to make this year's program a reality. If we sell more, then great - we can do more stuff. IF we sell less, then we have to make some tough choices about what to keep and what to cut. If you feel your son's pack is short-changing the boys by not having belt loops included in the pack budget, then I'd say you have found an area in which you can help out the pack. Get involved with the annual planning (assuming there is some done and its not just made up as you go...), then get involved with the budgeting to meet your program goals. Finally - get involved (or offer to start) the fund-raising so that your pack DOES have the $$ needed to include the extras like belt loops with asking the parents to pony-up for them all the time. Best of luck... DeanRx

I know Philmont is the 'mecca' of the scouting world. But, I was wondering if anyone has been to the NTHA lately? Specifically to Charles L. Solmers WCB? It was a trip my father made as a scout and one he took me on as a scout. I am already looking forward to planning a trip with my son (how's only a Wolf right now). I'm sure its changed a great deal. I'm sad to hear the "Rootbeer Lady's" gone and her cabins torn down and relocated to Ely... What a sight to come into her camp for a root-beer after 5 days on the water drinking nothing but water and kool-aid!!! Anyways - anyone have any info - I'd love to hear stories.

MikeCummings - "We haven't had much luck with the boys recruiting their friends in school, since scouts isn't "cool" at this age." I'd say thats 99% of the problem right there! If you put together an entertaining program geared towards the things boys your target age find "cool", then you'll have a full Troop. This, however, means that the old "hard core" adult leaders within a Troop must be open to new ideas and new adventures - not always the case, unfortunately. How about an "open house" night with a car show? Maybe a group outing to a sporting event? Heck - an open to all comer's "Guitar Hero" contest on a large projection screen in the auditorium ? Are these all traditional scouting activities? Maybe the sporting event, but the car show or Guitar Hero contest? - no.... Would most 12 to 15 y/o boys I know be interested in checking out such a thing - more than likely... You have to SELL your program as exciting, fun, fast paced. Then you have to make sure an put on a program that is exciting, fun and fast paced, or you'll loose them. Why is youth sports SO ingrained, even when most everyone would agree that BSA has a better "product"? Because in youth sports, dads get to relive their glory days in their son and the son can turn on the TV during any season and at least DREAM about one day playing in the NFL, the NBA, or MLB... BSA needs to SELL itself with the flash / bang, and then retain with the excitement, but also the substance. True - at some point - the tween / teen is likely going to look at the uniform and think "thats no longer cool". It happened to me about age 15. Got a learners permit(could back then), got a car and discovered that girls had boobs. It was all downhill from then for me and BSA. Funny thing is - now as an adult, some of my best memories of growing up are the outings I did as a scout. Especially camping and hiking. Especially that one trip to the Northern Adventure base... That WAS really cool - even if I didn't appreciate how much so at the time I lived it. You need to be giving them a reason to think "What they are doing IS cool." That will keep the boys involved - it will keep them coming back.

I will echo the thoughts of those posting before me... 1) Fun, fun, fun 2) Organized 3) Make the parents feel welcomed / wanted 4) Recruit parental involvement in small incremental steps #4 - Ask a new parent to help with one small specific task. Talk to them while you do it together (set up / tear down chairs for example)... this leads to "Hey you are great at organizing the room for the meetings, would you think about doing the seating / decorations for the blue and gold ?".... One other bit of advice... All new leaders (ESPECIALLY the NEW Tiger DEN LEADERS), need to be assigned a MENTOR from one of the "older" dens within the pack. Someone to bounce ideas off of, to ask questions of, to get pro's and con's from that has DONE THE JOB IN THE PAST! I see far too many packs that have the CC as the main point of contact. This leads to the CC being overwhelmed with questions from new leaders AND that CC may or may not have ever served in the position of a DL. If they haven't, they can only tell the new DL what they THINK works.... IF they've lived in that role, they can speak from expirience. So... 5) Mentor new leaders 6) Mentor new families that join mid-year. (They are at the highest risk for drop-out) Oh and remember - Fun, Fun, Fun.... YiS, DeanRx

As I stated previously, I have no problem with this guy authoring the statement. My beef is with the "description" he used for himself in the very short bio space. I will reprint the signature line from the political statement ver batim and let others decide if its a misuse of his position: ************************************************************ Dr. Jane Anderson M.D. - Fellow American College of Pediatricians Robert Bolingbroke - Council Commissioner San Diego-Imperial Council, Boy Scouts of America Jaralee Smith - Director of Education/California Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays (PFOX) ************************************************************** My issue is that he could use a LOT of different titles to describe himself in this extremely short bio. He chose to use his volunteer position within BSA. Why? I wonder how the council would react if I had authored an opinion piece in favor of rounding up all the illegal imigrants in SD county and swiftly kicking them all 35 miles south of our city? Then I ended my political "opinion" (one that would show up in EVERY Califonian's mailbox) with the statement: DeanRx - Cubmaster Pack XXX, Boy Scouts of America. I seriously doubt I'd be in my scouting position much longer. And BSA doesn't even HAVE a plicy stance on illegal immigration, unlike their policy on homosexuality or atheism. I has been hesitent to call the CE on this issue, but think I might place a call next week. Just to inquire. I've thought about a run for local city office, or school board. Can one place their BSA volunteer time in your bio when running for office? I'd say yes. In fact, in my same voter info book, a guy running for my children's school board (from an adjacent pack), listed his BSA service in his bio (along with about 10 other civic things he's been involved with). To me - doing this as a candidate for office is an ENTIRELY different thing than writing a position statement for a Prop and then attaching just ONE of your affiliations to your name. Seems the intent in the first example would be to show the public what you as a candidate has contributed to the community and thus your expirience for the job you are seeking. The intent in the second example would be to convey an ENDORSEMENT of the stated position by the organization you have listed by your name. In that case - I would sincerely hope the author would have gotten prior authorization from the organization before linking them to a political hot button issue. If not, its not unreasonable to expect that you'd be in trouble with said organization. Like BobWhite stated - even IF corrective action was to be taken, I doubt it'd be done in a public manner. Most companies (yes BSA is a company), would try and take care of these things as quietly as possible and hope it goes away.

GregNelson hits the nail squarely on this one. If the guy states he doesn't want any recognition, then why are you spending your time on how to recognize him? If you want to honor him and his donation, then spend your energy coming up with ways to put his $$ to the best use !! That's more than likely the kind of priase he's after anyways. He wants to know his money is going to be used in a meaningful way for the good of the group. A simple Thank You card from the one or two or few people "in the know" with a brief description of how the donation will be utilized is all that is needed. Also offer a letter (for tax purposes) in the note. A picture (or small collage) of the scouts in action would be a nice gesture, but anything more goes against his stated intentions. Best not to look this pony in the mouth - so to speak...

Yeah LisaBob - I hope he's not paid. In following the link shortridge supplied, this guy is the former COO of Clorox Bleach and has ponied up 25K of his own $$ into the cause to pass Prop 8. Heck - I can squak to the council if I want, but I doubt they are going to tell ANYONE that lives in Rancho Santa Fe what to do (richest suburb in S.D. county - think Golfer Phil Mickleson and Jenny Craig of diet fame - Oh yeah - and disgraced GOP 'top gun' Randy "Duke" Cunninham's old neighborhood before putting on the fed prison jumpsuit). Anyways - BSA isn't going to tell a guy like this what he CAN or CANNOT attach his name and his BSA position to. Its just a shame. BSA needs to have a "don't ask don't tell" policy with regards to these types of things. While I agree with the Prop and will vote YES on it - BSA is not the place or the venue to be speaking in favor or against such a thing in a public forum. We're trying to raise kids in accordance with the Scout Law. Courteous, kind, friendly must just apply to those that are not gay. What ever happened to the idea of disagreeing with the sin, but loving the sinner? Funny how this guy didn't list his former employer in his bio line for the authors of the rebuttal. Perhaps a little too dicey a subject matter for Clorox Corp to want to be tied to? But he has no problem bringing the political flaming poo-ball to bear on the BSA with his position. While I support his right to author the statement, his using his "volunteer" position within BSA does not HELP the organization. It just further incites those factions that wish to destroy the BSA. Thank you Mr. Bolingbroke for painting a bulls-eye on BSA's back for the gay community. (not that there wasn't one there already, but why continue to point it out to them?)(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

Hmmmm - very, very interesting... Glad this was pointed out Horizon. Since I AM part of this council, I think I might have to place a call to my Council Executive and ask exactly what IS or IS NOT allowed as far as politicing in uniform. I am strongly in favor of Prop 8 and intend to vote yes on it. However, while I have no problem with an executive from our council being a prinicple author on the "Rebuttal to argument against Prop 8", I certainly take issue with him using his title within BSA as his SOLE personal reference in the listing of the authors !!! Its not like the guy states: Robert Bolingbroke, Attorney, businessman, parent and scouter.... He lists just his name and the fact that he is a Council Commissioner in the SDIC, BSA. Hope he had an OK from national before doing this. I find it odd. Because even though I agree with this guy - it pisses me off that he chose to use his position within BSA in this manner. Ironically, if he had authorred a piece for the opposing viewpoint, he could well expect to be asked to leave scouting on the grounds he is committed to a pro-homosexual / pro-gay stance which is incompatable with BSA's views. Glad to see my funds to Friends of Scouting are being well spent by paying for this guy's salary

Printman31- Glad to hear you had a successful meeting. Its that kid that gave you the hug that keeps you coming back when the 'adults' make you want to run away screaming in the other direction. BTW - feel free to vent on here anytime. I'd rather see it on here than have an adult leader loose their cool with the kids (Lord knows its hard not to sometimes). Sounds like you've been bitten by the "reward" bug. Too late now, you're infected and in for the long haul Enjoy the ride ! DeanRx

How about... GDTRN G8ODR 4CAMP ICAMP

Sorry for jumping in on a GS thread, but I just coun't help it... I don't know what "open enrollment" has to do with anything ?!?! The one question that needs to be asked - IS this the type of leader I want shaping my child? If the answer is no, then its time to start the process of making your own troop. Either that or the current troop leader needs to be asked to recant her statement and allow the girl(s) to join. I know I might get flamed for this, but I'm soooooo glad I have 2 boys. It seems the clique issue never goes away for some gals, even as adults. Boys might beat the crap out of each other on the playground, but the next day they are running around friends again. Girls on the other hand inflict untold emotional damage onto other girls with the "she can be my friend, but you're not...." psychological warfare of pigtails. Sounds like this troop leader is the type to teach just those actions. The rest of the parents need to stand up to her in a united voice and make themselves be heard, or start their own group.

Printman31 - I feel for you. I really do. Sorry to hear you are not having an enjoyable expirience with your pack. May I offer a couple suggestions... 1) If you have 5 or more boys / families that feel as you do, you can form a den and charter your own pack. True, it will be a good amount of work, but I'd rather have 5 involved parents all pulling together than 35 half-involved parents all pulling in different directions. 2) Ask yourself WHY you (or your daughters or even your son) is bored with the pack meetings. Sounds like they could use a little "jazzing up". If your CM is not much of a 'showman', then offer to plan part of the pack meeting for him. Get you and a couple parents together and come up with a crazy game, skit, or song that will fire the kids up. The pack meeting should be fun - if its not, then the leadership of the pack is not doing their job. Unfortunately, this can happen easily. 3) Hang in there. I personally believe that being a Tiger DL is the toughest job in cub scouting. Why? Because A) they're 1st graders, they have the attention span of a gnat. B) In order to advance, you have to coordinate 5 field trips (go-see-its). No other rank badge requires this amount of trip planning on a DL's part. C) A parent must attend every meeting. While most often this is helpful, sometimes it can be a distration, especially when too many of the adult partners want to either control everything or they don't want to be involved at all. Thats why youth sports is sooooo much easier than scouting. Unless you volunteer to coach, you get to dump little Johnny off at practice or the game, sit on the sideline in your folding chair, fiening interest in the last goal scored, while you sip a Starbucks and either talk on the cell phone, or talk with the other parents. Youth sports are fine, but they are hardly quality time with your child. Scouting madates parental involvement. At the cub level, there's no reason you can't involve the ENTIRE family !! When our Pack does the Pinewood, or Space Derby, or Raingutter Regata, we ALWAYS have a sibling bracket that gets to race. Siblings ALWAYS get a certificate of participation. We want them to feel (whether male or female) that they are valued and part of the group. For the younger siblings, we have specific games on family campouts tailored to them (even to the toddler age). We even call them the "Chipmunk" patrol. Treat them as if they are their own Den at Pack activities. What I'm getting at is you can leave scouting. But what does that do for your kids? What does it teach about determination or about overcoming obstacles or about getting along with some people you may not like for the betterment of the larger group? Those are the lessons you have an opportunity to teach. Not via a lecture, but by your own actions. They are the lessons your kids will remember. If your kid is unhappy, then look for another pack or start your own. If you are unhappy, then look for what is within your power to affect change within your scout unit and do it. Hold your own standards with your Den. They will take pride in themselves because of it. At a recent pack show, I held up the CS 'sign' to get attention and have everyone quiet down. The Tiger Den was the first and fastest responders to it. I pointed out that they beat the WEBELOS Den in reaction time. The pride on their faces was priceless. The pat on the back to the DL was an atta boy for a job well done w/ his Den. Sorry for the ramble, but I'll leave you with this: If you want change, start with yourself and what YOU can control in the situation. Do what you know to be right and "be a duck" to everything else (let it roll off your back). Leaders don't cut and run, they lead. You need to decide if you're a leader or not. Best of luck with your decision. You're a concerned and involved parent, so I KNOW you'll make the best choice for your family. YiS, DeanRx

Jei states - "I guess the underlying question is this: Do you agree with the exclusion of homosexuals/atheists? Do you think that these groups are less "moral" or "deserving"? Do you feel you are biased against/have prejudices against the two groups?" ****************************************************************** Its actually 3 questions, so I'll try and answer them in order... 1) Do you agree with the exclusion of homosexuals / atheists? Answer: Unfortunately, yes I do. Its not that I have an issue with someone from either group. Its not that I'm afraid that either will try to "convert" my child to their way of thinking. I would like to think that an atheist or homosexual could be in the scouting group (specifically our group) without causing concern. However, the reality of the situation is that most likely the ones that want to join do so because they have an AGENDA to push. Fine. I just don't want that agenda presented to my son. Its the same as the Gay Marriage issue here in California. My issue is not with gays being married. I personally don't feel it "downgrades" my own heterosexual marriage. My issue is that once it is "normalized" in society, then I (and my family) have to endure the GAY AGENDA that accompanies it. This means that my child has to be subjected to homosexuality talks in sex-ed class in school, we have to endure two males or two females 'making out' on a park bench while trying to enjoy a day in the park - that was a fun discussion on the way home....(whether or not this coincides with my personal beliefs). My issue with gays and athiests is that if their representative groups were as concerned with MY rights to not have them use "in your face" tactics as they are about advancing their agendas, then I wouldn't have an issue with them. 2) Do I personally think both groups are immoral? You bet. Do I dislike them because of their views? No. Are gays or atheists any less "deserving" (to use your term)? No. By virture of being decent humans, they are just as deserving as anyone else of respect and acceptance. But I am offended by the idea that just because I voice my opinion that they are immoral and because of this I should be allowed to shield my child from their influence, I am often called "not open" or more often labelled by said groups as a racist. I find it curious that gays and atheists pronounce that they want general society's "acceptance". Thats all they are after. Yet both groups have no problem trouncing on other people's freedom of thought to advance the freedom of their own convictions. 3) Do you feel you are biased against/have prejudices against the two groups?" Answer: No, I don't. But I'd be willing to bet there are members of both these groups that would say I do have a bias / prejudice against them because of the views I have stated above. Bottom line, Do I hate or dislike people in either of these groups? No. Do I wish them any ill will? No. Do I get in their face about their beliefs? Heck No. Do I think they should be able to live their life as they see fit? Yes. Do I think I should be able to live MY life as I see fit and instill MY values on my children? YES ! Do I think they should be allowed to influence my child by their interations with him? HELL NO. Do I think I have a right to stand up against what I believe is an attempt to influence my child via interacting with him in a private organization? HELL YES. The rub is in the last two rehtorical questions. I see it as standing up for what I believe in and what I want my child to be protected from. Others see it as a discriminatory practice and see me as a racist because if it. Guess I'm guilty as charged. DeanRx(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

NancyB- "I have enjoyed reading all the different viewpoints on this matter. They all give me food for thought. But one thought - if the BSA didn't care whether we followed the rules, why did they make them? " As summized by all the armchair legal experts on this forum (some might be actual lawyers - so they're professional BS artists instead of amatures)... BSA makes the rules to COVER THEIR COLLECTIVE *SS !! What started out as safety precautions has perverted into litigation mitigation. Often at the COST of fun and enjoyment to the scouts they are supposed to be serving. ******************************************** NeilLup - While I understand your point, the pastor you quote was talking about GENOCIDE for Christ's sake !!! We're talking about improper sleeping arraingements by two ADULTS. Hardly the same thing. Guess I should throw in a quip about "Make Love, Not War....." as it would tie the two topics together (This message has been edited by DeanRx)(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

ASM - Beevah and Eamonn have some good insight on this one. As for your questions about who brings up the violation at a group campout.... well I'd say if your name is on the tour permit, then you are responsible to BSA that your group is following the rules. So, if you are signed on the tour permit or you hold a position of authority (CM, ACM, SM, ASM) within the pack / troop / crew, then you are well within your scope of duty to have a talk with the individual(s) involved. If you are an adult along for the ride, then bring the issue to the attention of one of the adult leaders and let them deal with it. If they choose not to act, then ask yourself if the violation is severe enough to warrent you bringing it to the attention of the district or council. At this point, the issue is with the unit leadership in addition to the individual(s) involved in the issue. Frankly, its this "overzealous" - "I'm right and I'll tell you why you're wrong...." attitude that prompted my rant about what scouts can and cannot do anymore. Unfortunately, it seems to be a pervasive theme in some units / districts and I don't really see it benefitting the boys OR the organization in any way. I recall friendly, courteous, kind, helpful, in the Scout Law. I don't recall 'right' or 'bossy' in the Scout Law. I remind myself on occasion about the 'cheerful' point in the Scout Law (especially after spending too much time on the message boards) Police yourself, lead by example. Unless in a position of authority, bite your toungue unless imminent danger to youths or others is involved (knives, fire, co-ed bunking, YPG, etc...). Otherwise, state your case to the leader(s) present and then be done with it. AS for the OP and the DE bunking with his fiance - he's a smuck for doing it and looses big time credibility points with all who have knowledge of it (both adults and youth). That should be "punishment" enough. Bring it to the attention of the council and then let it go.... if they give him a slap on the wrist, or fire him - its not up to you, you've done your due dilligence for the good of the group. One other thought - No one is EVER going to question your personal integrity for not reporting something someone else did. People will however, question your motives if you make an issue out of every little thing that might not be "by the book". If a scouter is not in imminent danger, what good does it do to make an issue out of it at the time it occurs? Might be better to use it as a teaching moment at a later date... Next campout prep, put out "Just a reminder regarding sleeping arrangements....and this applies to EVERYONE !!" Or it can be a topic of character development discussions with your scouts.... If they ask, you have a teachable moment about how hard it can be to have integrity, even as an adult. Point out (without specific details) that sometimes adults have a hard time "walking that line". Even the good scout leaders, very well intended, sometimes grapple with hard choices and make the wrong decision - its good for youth to understand that concept. Your scouts will get a benefit from it, you earn trust instead of alienating yourself, and it gets the scouts to think about / discuss real world moral and ethical conundrums that we all must face in our day to day lives. Sorry - can't be more specific than that. I truely believe its all situational leadership. So, how I'd act / what I'd do given a specific set of circumstances will differ as the variables change. That's part of being an effective leader. DeanRx

Jei- I understand your question and I hope its coming from a good place, not just to stir the pot... A couple considerations: 1) BSA is NOT a public organization. It has held up on multiple challenges to the level of the Supreme Court that BSA is a PRIVATE organization. As such, it is free to "discriminate" (to use your term) in its recruitment and retainment practices as it sees fit. If it gets too far outside 'societal' norms, then it will loose members based on people choosing not to participate. The US Supreme Court has found in BSA's favor multiple times in the past 2 decades. This includes challenges on religion vs atheism, challenges on sexual orientation, AND challenges on admitting females. As another poster stated, if you don't care for those positions, then go join (or start) a group that has different views. 2) With regards to the religion aspect, Baden Powell was EXTREMELY precise in his guidance to scouts when he founded the organization. He basically believed that a person without an acceptance of a higher power can not and will not grow to reach their full potential in life and thus will not become the best citizen possible. Hey, BSA doesn't say you have to believe this line of thinking. They're just saying if you want to be in their organization you have to have a faith. Now to the practicle application. Do we go around inquiring about member's orientation? - No. Do we question their spirituality? - No. If someone "outs" themselves as gay or an atheist would they subject themselves to being asked to leave? - Probably. So in that regard its a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I figure that when dealing with youth in the ages we see in scouting, avoiding conversations about both subjects is the best course of action. If I was approached by a scout on either a sexuality or religion question - I would tend to re-direct them back to their parent(s) or legal guardian, or to a proper adult able to help them decifer their questions (i.e. clergy for religion or doctor, school counselor for sexuality issues). Maybe I'm old fashioned, but in my book there are only TWO adults that should be talking to my kids about either subject (my wife and I). There are only TWO youths I will discuss such topics with (my children). Some within BSA would say a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy would be the way to approach these issues. Others would say stand firm on the issues. Fortunately or unfortunately - BSA is NOT a democracy. It doesn't matter what my personal views are, it doesn't matter what a district or council executives views are - we are charged with providing a program to BSA standards. BSA has leadership who's job it is to set policy. They have set it. If a member doesn't like it, then they can vote with their feet. If enough members vote with their feet, then the organization fails. However, BSA has held fast to these policies (built on beliefs and faith) for nearly 100 years and it hasn't died yet. Don't hold your breath thinking it will die in the next 100 years because if these issues. I find it curious that when society "changes" then the view of the organization is automatically accused of not being "open" enough. Its not about "openness" its about character, integrity and being morally right. Those concepts never become outdated. Respectfully, DeanRx

GoldWinger - I understand what you are saying. Guess I should just "look the other way" next year when my scouts start selling before the apporved "kick off" date, eh? They steal our sales = they steal our funding = we have less of a program. I'm honestly toying with the idea of "calling out" the other pack's leaders during open discussion at the next round table. At least the RT would be entertaining for a change FYI - in fact at one of the locations, yes the other pack just showed up the day of kick-off. I asked the store director about it and his reply was, "Well, if I let one of you sell, I can't really tell the other one not to...." Besides - this should be worked between units, not put the store managers in the middle. I support FOS, our pack supports sales of scout fair tickets... what do we get from council / district for that? Nothing. Yeah - it goes to run camps with is great and is for the "greater good", so we are team players in that regard. I just want my DE and council SE to stand up and defend our pack's right to have a fair shake at getting popcorn $$ in our own local city.

1) As long as its not happening at scout functions or in front of the scouts in other public arena(s) - then its none of your business, or anyone else's in the Troop for that matter. If an adult leader in BSA gets arrested for securities fraud (not during a scout funciton), do they get removed from the program? What if the securities fraud involved one or more of the parent(s) of other scouts in the program? That's basically what you're asking... The quesiton is, "If an adult leader (SM or otherwise) is involved in an immoral act with another adult leader outside of BSA events, should that person be kicked out of scouting?" Some will argue - yes, others will say - no. Unless you have video taped evidence (at which point I don't want to know how you got it....) - then stay out of it. The first ex-wife is NOT a valid reference. You are getting one side of the story from an individual that obviously has been scorned by the accused. That is a recipe for gossip if I've ever seen one. 2) You can only control YOURSELF and YOUR FAMILY in this situation. So, if the "alledged" act(s) are offensive to you. By all means, you can search for another Troop. That's your right as a concerned parent. You are also within your rights to let the leadership within the Troop you are departing know WHY you are choosing to leave. At that point, if it really is an issue, they will either choose to address it - or they will watch their unit crumble around them. As a newly minted Cubmaster, I am AMAZED at how many people crawl out of the woodwork with "issues" they despreately need me or the CC to address. In reality, the majority of these issues are personality conflicts between one, two, or three adults within the organization. If they can't deal with it on their own, they can either be civil to each other while at unit functions, or they can leave the unit. I have boys in the unit to worry about (as does your son's SM and CC). It is NOT the unit leadership's job to take on interpersonal squables of the non-leader adults within the unit. As an aside - eisely wrote: "The only rule that I can think about that might apply regards the sleeping arrangements on outings. Adults of the opposite sex cannot share a tent on an outing" Not entirely true. UNMARRIED adults of the opposite sex cannot share a tent on an outing. If its a family campout and they are married (to each other of course) - they certainly can share a tent. The funny part about this is... if the two adult leaders (not married to each other) go off and have sex in the woods, but sleep in seperate quarters, then they haven't broken this BSA policy. Yet, the same organization that is so opposed to homosexuality will allow non-married adult leaders (over 21) of the same gender to share sleeping quarters. Things that make you go.... Hmmmmmmm ?

So, I get an e-mail tonight from my CC. Seems she and our popcorn kernel were making final arrangements for this weekend's (2nd weekend) show-n-sell's and verifying with local store directors times / dates / locations / etc.... Well - one site we sold at LAST weekend (and have paperwork assuring us of exclusivity) has turned us away, BECASUE another pack from the adjoining TOWN has asked for and been given permission to sell at their storefront for the NEXT 3 WEEKENDS !! We had another pack show up at TWO of our pre-arranged locations last Saturday, ONE was not only from another town in the metro San Diego area, but outside their DISTRICT !?!? All of these locations are within 5 miles of our pack's neighborhood and a minimum of 15 miles from the other pack's involved. Its a large urban / sub-urban area (north county San Diego)... not like they're are not other places closer to their pack's "home" to sell. Our CC has e-mailed our DE and Dist Trainer and asked that this issue be address for next year. I am thinking of calling BOTH the DE and the council exec (seeing as one pack is crossing DISTRICT lines to sell) and asking that this other pack from the adjoining town be told to STAND DOWN their sale as they are encroaching outside their city boundries and into another unit's geographical location. Any other "big city" scouters run into this issue? Is there an actual policy? Is it no-holds-barred selling within districts / councils? I know of at LEAST 5 prime locations (the beach, ballpark, zoo, other major attractions) that we could set up at, but they are ALL outside our geographical locale (i.e. out of our zip code), so we as a pack committee purposely stay away, especially because we KNOW there are other units in those areas of town... I'm so mad right now, I want to call the other Pack Cubmasters, CC's, and Popcorn Kernel's and quiz them on that whole "A scout is courteous..." thing I remember learning in the Scout Law. Any ideas on how to address this?

Nike- I am making the assumption you are refering to donations offered during popcorn sales... just having a hand out, or solicting donations for other organizations while representing the BSA is in the reg referenced in the prior post. Forget it. As long as the scouts are not ASKING for donations, then its no big deal. As long as they are not taking donations (solicted or unsolicted) while doing individual popcorn sales, then don't worry about it. If you have scouts doing "show-and-sells" (i.e. sitting in front of the local grocery store) for popcorn and someone wants to donate, then by all means - take the donation. The big issue is this - the scouts cannot SOLICIT for it. We have several folks stop by our show-n-sell sites and say, "I can't eat popcorn, but here's $5 for the scouts..." You're an idiot if you don't take it. At that point you failed to fund your unit AND managed to alienate the public from scouting at the same time. If you're REALLY worried about it being an issue (i.e. you have someone in your pack / district CoC that is going to make an issue out of it...), then make a point of offering the popcorn to the "donor", when they refuse, then ask them if they would like to "donate" the popcorn they just "bought" to the Operation Popcorn, or to the "boys in the pack". Technically - you sold them popcorn for their $$, they just refused to take delivery of the goods. DeanRx - trying to put a little common sense back into the wacky world of scouting...(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

Since I'm firmly rooted in the Cubbie category for at least the next 4 years... Pack activities for this year include... 1) Family pack campouts 2) Bike Rodeo 3) Holiday parade float 4) Popcorn selling 5) "Pie-in-the-face" of the CM for top popcorn sellers 6) Space Derby 7) Raingutter Regatta 8) Council Fun-w-Son weekends 9) B&G in Feb 10) Pinewood Derby (go fast or go home !) 11) Erosion control / landscape planting at our local school (serive project) 12) Scout Fair 13) Day hikes / public park litter clean-up (service project) So - we got a few things going on... Figured if I was the OP from the spun thread, the least I could do is throw in some positives over here