DeanRx

LisaBob and everyone else... I hear you about your concerns, but dollar for dollar scouting is one of the BEST deals out there! You have a kid in soccer. Around here - that's a minimum of $60-80 for a 2 to 3 month season. You do little league. Last year my son played - it was $150, plus you either had to work the consession stand or buy it out for another $50. Thats $200 for a 2 to 3 month season !! GYmnastics / dance / acting / voice - forget it... those start at around $100 / month and go up from there... Our Pack charges $80 dues a year. They can play $40 in Jan and $40 in June if its that much a hardship. We do a HECK of a job on popcorn as well. Its our one and ONLY fundraiser and we let the public know this when we sell. I was VERY concerned about popcorn sales this year given the economy. While not hit with the auto industry issues - we are in SoCal and the housing crisis has hit us BIG-TIME. I figured if we sold 70% of last years numbers we'd be doing good... nope... Our highly organized Popcorn Kernel and her helpers got us going and we sold nearly 25K in popcorn with a pack of 50 kids !! Now we have the best kind of problem possible... HOW to earmark / spend this money in the FY, so we don't have too much carryover and loose our non-profit status! What an excellent problem to have! Bottom line - you can doom and gloom it, or you can DO something about it! Scouting is great for the kids, its great for families, and I don't know of ANY family activity that can provide more bang for the buck. So, in bad economic times, scouting IS the way to go. Motivate / market your unit and the fundraising $$ will take care of themself. Do fundraising, but let the public KNOW the community service you do. Even when times are hard, people will give to kids doing positive things in their community. It worked for us, WAY more than I would have EVER imagined this year. Best of luck- Dean

Any scouters out there familiar w/ this book? I just completed it (told about it by my ACM in the pack - I am the CM). This book makes a lot of connections for me that I've always felt, but was unable to verbalize in a constructive manner. The author makes a case that in the past generation (from the 1970's forward) - we as a society have severely limited our children's free play and specifically free play within and interacting in nature. He speaks in specifics about what effects a child removed from nature can be facing. He talks about the toll the combination of litigation threat (sound familiar to BSA folks), the "Boogeyman Syndrome", and overzealous environmentalism has played in removing kids from roaming the in forrest, building treehouses, and interacting with nature on their own visceal level into the heavily structured / overscheduled world of playdates and organized sports. He also makes the case that such issues has created a generation of helicopter parents, even in a time when, statistically, violent crimes and abduction of children is 4 to 5 times LOWER now than it was in the late 60's and early 70's. He questions the type of people we are raising by having future generations being "afraid" to be alone / unsupervised / unscheduled at play. Especially alone in the woods. Anyways - I thought it was a pretty interesting read. So much so, I have recommended it to all the adult leaders in my Pack. If I had my way, it should be required reading for BSA trained leader status (as should the "Dangerous Book for Boys" - but thats another topic)... Just interested if others out there have read this book and what you thought of it? Its a cheap read at about $15-$18 on Amazon or at Barnes-N-Noble. DeanRx

Jay- Hope you have found a workable solution to your issue. Please let us know how it turns out. BW- Thanks for the vote of confidence. I know you and I have not seen eye to eye on every post, but I value your time in service and wisdom, so good to know our thoughts align on some things. SSScout- Hopefully that was a compliment and not a jab. I'll take is as a kudos and say thanks. Dean

I'd say look at the diversity you already have and build on it. I am the CM for a 53 member pack. In it we have families that barely make enough to pay rent, and we have a couple families I'm pretty sure make into the mid-six figures. So, there's economic diversity. We have several scouts (being in San Diego) that have a hispanic background, a couple of leaders that have qualified and wear the interpreter badge... there's ethnic diversity. We have several families that have 1st generation immigrants as parents, Indian, Canadian, English, French, Viet Namese, Pacific Islander (Philipino) and Scottish to just name a few off the top of my head. We have scouts from different religious backgrounds, some LDS, some Catholic, at least one family I know is Jewish and at least one more that is Hindu. I would bet we have several with little religious background. There's your religious diversity. We have scouts in accelerated academics, we have others that take after school tutoring to keep up. We have at least two ADHD kids that I know of, and one mildly autistic child in the pack. So there's developmental diversity. Bottom line - its not what makes us different that counts. I always attempt to emphasize what makes us alike despite these differences. We talk about respect and understanding. We discuss and ask for input as to each families customs for given holidays. Just the point of introducing the kids to the fact that some of their friends and fellow scouts may not have a Christmas Tree (and WHY). This gets them thinking about, "Yeah, this kid is a different religion than me, practices different customs, BUT we are still good friends, hang out, do scouts together, and he's cool..." That to me is the point of making kids "aware" of diversity. Its not so much about celebrating differences as it is being aware and respectful of them. Also, seeing how alike we all are despite some differences. While at the same time, removing the cloud of mystery (i.e. hey - he's different than me... that must mean he's wierd..) that left unaddressed can often lead to misunderstandings, intolerance, and eventually prejudice as the kids get older.

Kraut - Here is your 1st bit of flak... Comparing a CS Pack to how you run a BS Troop is apples and oranges. Cub Scouting is all about FAMILY. It is ADULT led. Boy Scouting is all about PATROLS. It is YOUTH led with adult supervision. To suggest that some (if not all) these families leave the yougner siblings at home is to suggest that some families (and Cub Scouts) will not be able to participate. I am a CM with roughly 18 registered adults in a pack with 53 Cub Scouts (at last count). It can be done - here's how... 1) Include the younger siblings in the pack activities when possible. 2) Recruit a couple of adults (usually a couple moms) to sit w/ the younger siblings at the meeting and supervise them. 3) Have alternate activities for the younger sibs (i.e. we ALWAYS have coloring pages and crayons at the ready) 4) The sibs are in the same room as the parents, so if an issue starts, a parent can take over and remove the younger sibling / deal with the issue.... (i.e. the parent is always in control / responsible for the younger sibling) When we have Pack meetings, ALL scouts sit with their Dens (to include Tigers). The only adults sitting with them are the DL and ADL. We have the younger siblings sit together (in their own "den") and do their activities - or with their parents. When we sing a song, they sing w/ us. If we do a skit, they watch / participate. We have a "sibling" category in our space derby, raingutter regatta, and pinewood derby (also a super-unlimited class in pinewood for the dads). Sometimes the younger siblings cars run better than the scouts! Another example: We had a costume review (walk across the stage in your Halloween costume and say who you were) at the October meeting... we published and encouraged ALL kids, scouts and sibs to take part. We had a 2 y/o in costume that paraded across w/ his Cub Scout brother. Instead of segregating and potentially running into trouble with a well-meaning, but overworked / undertrained / understaffed teenage babysitter, INCLUDE the siblings and families in the activities. Cubbies is about the family. Make it a warm and welcoming place for everyone. At the same time, keep sibling kiddos under the direction of their parents. BSA is not responsible for them, nor should they be. I make an announcement at the start of every meeting asking that if a younger sibling is causing a disturbance, please take them out of the hall until they calm down so as to not interrupt the meeting... Guess what - never had to ask a parent to step out with a kid. I have stopped a meeting and asked a DAD to take his cell conversation out in the hall. I have stopped a meeting and almost polietly asked two "Chatty Cathy" moms (who could be heard in the back of the room) to take their conversation outside. Set the expectation and then involve them as much as possible. It will be a non-issue in no time. Best of luck. Dean

Listen to JBlake (Stosh)... Anyways - if the current SM and CC are on their way out the door (and from your post, they are the only ones you have had issues with) then there is no one to stand in your way. Go be the SM and LEAD the troop the way you see fit. It only takes a couple offers of being willing to step down and let someone else take the reins to silence most of the critics. I usually find those that have the most time to complain are those that spend the least amount of time 'DOING' for the pack / troop. Be a 'DOer', not someone that sits on the sidelines and says, "Gee, I wish our troop would do x,y,z differently." You can only affect the outcome if you're in the game. No one ever won the day by sitting on the sidelines. Best of luck... Dean

BW has the nail squarely on the head w/ this one. If parent-A signs permission slip for scout, and parent-B objects (whether in state or out of state), the issue is between parent-A and parent-B. If the unit can be held to account for parent-A breaking any limitations on travel in the settlement, then I guess units better start asking for PROOF of guardianship / legal custody from ALL adults that sign permission slips for any outing. How do you know the adult even signed it? Maybe the scout is forging mom or dad's signature? Do we check on that? What if Grandma signs it, do we ask for a copy of power-of-attorney or papers of legal guardianship? I doubt it. If the unit has a signed permission slip in hand. Any beef is between the divorced parties.

Thanks for the compliment Xtreme.

Sorry Brian - A scout is Thrifty. If I were to donate to this Troop to replace stolen equipment and trailer, I would consider a few things: 1) I'd contact the Troop leaders directly and send them a CHECK made out to the troop. 2) I'd ask if the troop, or the CO had any insurance over the property. If not, while tragic it certainly doesn't fit the motto of "Be Prepared", now does it. 3) You might a nice young guy just trying to honestly help out. But, if you think I'm going to PayPal you money directly so that you can make sure it gets to the SM and ASM's of a troop you weren't even a member of as a youth, then you've been drinking a little too much at college. Hmmm - PayPal me some $$ to a guy that is NOT a member, nor has been a member of this troop. Oh yeah and the poster has 6 posts to his screen name. Sounds like part of the PHISHING merit badge to me

Why? a camp-in? You can do just about any game you'd do at a camp-out, I guess. Steal the Bacon is good. Capture the Flag - if you can get the Cubbies to concentrate Paper Airplane contest - go for distance / etc... On legged balance tag - You define a small area (20-30sq ft) on the floor... all scouts must get in the circle and hop on one foot (hold the other foot with their hand behind buttocks)... then they hop and try to push each other out of the circle or cause others to loose balance and put their other foot down... last one standing is winner. If you have a soft surface (carpet) - the non-PC "Indian Leg Wrestle" is always a childhood favorite. Any type of relay race - crab walk, crawl, etc... Hope you have fun. Hope the reason for being indoors is due to time / location constraints, or weather, or urban area / etc.... They might be cubbies, but they need to get outdoors as much and as soon as possible. Keep the OUTING in scOUTING ! Good luck and have fun. DeanRx

I watched (and Tivo'd) all of season 1. It was a well thought out and a well produced series. Good interviews and some scouts telling about scouting in their own words. It also had its fill of "offical" BSA spokespersons preaching the "brand" for the show. It showed a lot of scouts "doing stuff" with a voice over from the camp director talking about abstract ideas, instead of the scouts talking about what THEY specifically did at camp. My main complaint (I'll know get flamed on this)... was their OVER use of female campers and leaders in the series. I know they were trying to be inclusive and I'm fine with that. However, if the aim is to promote Boy Scouting, then WHY have over 1/2 of a show interviewing a FEMALE camp counselor at Phillmont? OK, I'll REALLY be sexist and state if you ARE going to use up 1/2 a show interviewing a female camp counselor - at least get a GOOD LOOKING ONE to be on TV! Sorry, but sex sells - even when BSA is the product. They don't put the ugly scouts on the tins of popcorn - they put the "poster boys" of scouting on them. Why then, in the video media, do they use someone that #1 doesn't represent the base of the organization or #2 is not visually appealing to your target audience? I'm not saying you sex up a female and put her in a scout uniform. But at least they should be well kept and attractive. Also, why have the majority of interviews done at the Florida Sea Base done with a FEMALE adult leader? Once again, not one that is "poster" material. I might get booed for this post, but frankly, I wouldn't put myself on a popcorn tin OR as a spokesperson on the show. I don't have the looks to be in front of the camera. Don't get me wrong - I think both presenters did a GREAT job in conveying the scouting concepts and what each location was about. The content was fantastic - the producers just need to understand the packaging that is needed when working in the TV media. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if USGSA had a similar series, they wouldn't be using male adult leaders to promote their program. Or if they did, they'd at least use decent looking men to do their sales pitch. No balding, fat, middle aged guys. More than likely - they wouldn't have any men shown in their promotional series at all. Its almost as if BSA is soooo afraid of being labelled exclusive (gender biased), they went out of their way to project the opposite image. I half way expected to see a gay-atheist by the 3rd or 4th episode I recorded - just so they would be 'represented'. It also seemed to be pretty heavily representative of venturing crews in the high adventure spots... maybe that's the reasons for the co-ed theme? None of it really focused on strickly Boy Scouts and no mention of Cub Scouts in any of the footage I saw. Guess the cubbies don't have any adventures... Go ahead and flame away - this critique is mine and mine alone. Just watch it yourself and draw your own conclusions.

All great suggestions... One add-on: when they do graduate to making life size structures, you can always get good sized spars at any home improvement or hardware store. Get the 8ft to 10ft wooden tree stakes used by landscapers. They are just the right diameter, rough enough to hold the lashings without slipping, and can often be had pretty cheap either new. Or better yet - have the boys get a one time job with a landscape crew removing the stakes from trees that no longer need them. Have 'em ask if they can do a days work for free if they can keep the stakes. There - they have more wood to build with than they know what to do with it. And they don't have to chop down all the trees on your land to make it happen.

I might get a few negative replies for this, but I've never been one to be PC... I think it has very little to do with the GENDER of the leader. It has to do with 4 things: 1) Does the leader present themselves as such? Do they have a "command presence"? Anyone that ever has to tell someone else that they are in charge, most certainly is NOT in charge. 2) Are they prepared? If a leader comes off as not ready for the challenge of the day, or ill prepared to lead the event - kids (just like soldiers) will eat them alive. I see this happen a lot w/ adult leaders who think they can just "wing it". 3) Do they foster trust from those in their charge? Are they firm yet approachable? Can a scout trust them enough to be open about things that might be a dicey subject. Scouts will open up only if you are willing to be a confidant and offer appropriate responses / guidance. One mis-step in this area can shut down a leaders ability to influence. Do you inspire others to achieve beyond what they themselves think they are capable of? 4) Be a lifelong learner. Are you willing to learn? Can you admit when you don't know and conceed to someone w/ more expirience in the matter at hand? Are you willing to be trained in the doctrine of the organization? Are you willing to accept the policies / procedures within the organization and uphold them even if you disagree with them? Will you only work within the organization to change the things you disagree with? I've been around and seen good and bad leadership from both genders, in the Army, a WHOLE lot in the business world, and most certainly in the scouting arena. It has very little to do with gender - it has to do with mindset / preparation / execution. Do those things well - people will BEG to follow you. DeanRx(This message has been edited by DeanRx)(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

Sorry to see that no Troop in your community turned out. We are going to be in a holiday parade this weekend w/ our Pack. I'll keep an eye out to see if any BS units are there. We have a float and "walk" with our flags and pack banner. Can't have them "march" you know... "BSA is NOT a para military organization".... Some folks seems to have forgotten our roots.

Eamonn- Sorry to hear you are having a down time. I understand your point of view, however I do have some concerns about some of the things you have stated in your post(s). You state that burnout shouldn't be an issue b/c you feel many of your volunteers are not doing enough to "light up". I would first ask WHAT (if anything) your district and council have done to light the fire of these volunteers. 2-3 years with a dud DE and 3 SE's in four years !!! Wow - can you say no consistent leadership at the top? I've only been back in scouting for a little over 2 years and in the cub area at that. But - I am extremely aware that its not the same organization that I was in as a kid. If they put as much time, $$ and effort into making sure the scouts were having fun as they do making sure I (and every other volunteer) isn't a pedophile, BSA would have NO retention / recruitment problems. In the past year these are the things I've seen at the district and council level... all that I've shaken my head at when I view them in the light of the scout oath and law: 1) DE being unresponsive to G2SS questions from pack leadership (i.e. 3-4 e-mails and VM, then send e-mail to SE before finally getting a callback - event was already over by the time I got a reply - this has happened twice in a year now) 2) Council Fun w/ Son, scheduled, then cancelled, then back on again (within two weeks time), then DE expressed bewilderment at WHY they had such a poor turn out? 3) Popcorn sales - 3a) After multiple years of a Kernel's volunteer hours to coordinate show-n-sells, TWO adjacent packs squat on our turf on the same weekends at the same stores. DE's reply: Just play well together and "share the sales". Funny, my popcorn kernel doesn't want to do the job anymore, wonder why? 3b) Popcorn pickup. Was scheduled to be a local delivery. Embedded in an overview e-mail sent last minute - change of plans to the district. Everyone had to go to council offices to pick up (30 miles downtown). Popcorn Kernel and drivers found this out when they showed up at the orginal pick-up point and no one was there. 4) Roundtables that are about as exciting as an insurance seminar. Really no good info put out to help improve program, just warnings about "what not do to" or you'll get in trouble. DE shows up late and leaves early from last two RT's I went to...he's the only one getting paid to be there as far as I know. So bottom line.... if the numbers are down - LOOK AT THE LEADERSHIP! I would NEVER state this in front of my scouts and barely breath it with our adults (just me and the CC talk about it). But - it seems to me the worst offenders in the areas of loyal, helpful, trustworthy... are the folks that are getting PAID to scout. This sours the volunteer base pretty quickly to which they reply, "WTF - they talk a good talk, but when it comes to action they don't live up to the hype." "I'm outta here - I got better things to spend my time on with my son." Yes - those have been direct quotes to me from parents in my pack in the last year as CM because of issues directly linked to leadership (or lack thereof) at the district and council levels. If BSA wants to reverse membership trends and hang on to scouts they need to keep it exciting (i.e. do fun and somewhat dangerous stuff - this means revamping the G2SS (i.e. guide to LAME scouting)) and hold their middle and upper managers (i.e. the PAID professional scouters) to a much higher level of integretity than I've personally witnessed in the past two years. I don't know what a DE or SE gets paid. I'm sure its not much and its never enough for the amount one is asked to do. But remeber - all the adult volunteers see is that they DO get paid (from our donations and popcorn sales), so the expectation on return in service is pretty high. When leadership fails to meet expectations, then a LOT of good volunteers pack up their tents and head to another campground.

Right now its pretty apparent to some of the adults involved with Web1 that there is a different standard being held for their den vs. the Web2 den. As for any other adults / scouts understanding this issue... I doubt it. Most don't know about / understand the Webelos rank requirements until they get to those years in the program. Most Tiger, Wolf, and Bear DL's have no idea what is involved in the Webelos rank. The only parents that would have a clue about it are any that have an older scout that has already gone through the Webelos years.

Yeah Karen - I'm not quite sure HOW they got their hands on the Bear rank last year w/out having the paperwork in order w/ our council. As for everyone still debating the LTP issue - its a dead issue. Our council (for better or worse) requires them ANYTIME a Den or Pack goes somewhere other than there regular meeting place. Doesn't matter if they ride together or all ride w/ their parents and meet at the location. This has been covered ad nauseum at EVERY council training I've ever attended (to include NLE, DL, CM, and BALOO). For those that still want to debate this caveate please spin the thread (BW and evmori) - otherwise I can give you the name and number of the SE for my council and you can debate the merits of his policy with him. I'm in his council, so I just file the LTP. Thanks to those that have posted relevant to the topic. I will continue to chew this one over. The CC actually is one of the leaders that is crying foul over this issue, but to my defense it is an issue I inherited when I took over as CM this past summer. We (the CC and I) have attempted to encourage and support the WDL as much as possible, to include doing the sign-ups for Webelos Woods, getting him contact info for Troops, etc... As for ME actually taking this on... I am the CM to a 53 scout pack with a son in his Wolf year. My wife already complains about the "one hour a week" (more like 1-2 hrs a day) I spend on scout stuff. I was asked (and declined) to be an adult leader for our pack @ Webelos Woods, b/c we couldn't get enough registered leaders from the Webelos Dens to go. How? am I supposed to justifiy to BOTH the wife and my scout running off to camp for a weekend when MY son can not even be involved in the campout? Yes, they still have time and I hope they are working towards whatever level of rank they want to achieve. If they don't want to get the AOL, I'm fine with that too. I'd like to see them strive for it, but that is not my decision. It just doesn't look right (to me and others that know the ranks) when the Web2 go a full year with very little to no advancement activity, then in ONE pack meeting they ALL have completed the Citizen WAP, the Aquanaunt WAP, and the Fitness WAP to qualify for the Webelos Badge. Not saying that those three WAP's can not be done in a one month period, but to go from nothing to having done it all ?!?! It certainly didn't look right to the CC (son is a Web1) and the Web1 DL who has been working w/ their den for the better part of the summer and fall to get to the same point in advancement.

First- Thanks for all the replies - please keep them coming... Second (so we can put this side issue to bed) - OUR council SDIC (San Diego / Imperial Council) requires LTP's for ANY group outing by a Den or Pack that requires travel to ANY site other than the group's normal meeting place. All the DL's know and historically have followed this rule (our CC is a lawyer - so makes sure its followed). A couple reasons I am suspicious: ONE - These Webelos have done very little in their Web1 year. They didn't even complete the requirements for the Webelos badge. Now, all of a sudden, they are zipping along on Web Activity pins / etc... Like one poster stated - maybe they finally have seen the light and know they have a limited time to get this done. TWO - A recent conversation b/t the DL and CC (relayed to me by the CC)... Our CC had been speaking w/ the DL regarding rank advancement and the DL made the comment that "scout 1" had been around in the program for a long while and very active, so he must have completed the requirements, so the DL was going to put the scout in for the Webelos Badge along with the other scouts in the den. THREE - A the last pack meeting, I was informed 5 minutes before the start (by this same DL), that "scout2" would not be receiving the Webelos Badge the advancement chair had picked up (at the DL's request), b/c it was discovered after the fact, that "scout2" has never completed the BOBCAT requirements and thus cannot be awarded any other rank before he does the BOBCAT! This was NOT a tracking error by council, the scout had actually never completed the Bobcat rank badge. Mind you, "scout2" joined last year (when I was not the CM) and got a free pass towards the end of the year to get his Bear rank. At the time, we had a different CM and advancement chair, both of which were nice folks - but not exactly on top of the requirements, let alone tracking the paperwork correctly. So, I have a DL with a "If they do the time, they get the rank" attitude, coupled with a precedent of one scout in that den that has already received a rank (Bear) in the previous year without completing the BOBCAT, that was now put in for the Webelos badge, but had it dis-allowed (by the DL - after having the requirement for Bobcat pointed out by the advancement chair). This den historically has very little parent involvement aside from our one willing (yet somewhat misguided DL), so its not like the parents in the den are going to say anything about it one way or another. It is a small Webelos2 den and I highly doubt many (if any) are planning on continuing on to Boy Scouts. I am inclined to let them do there own thing (i.e. let time in = rank), but then set the right tone with the remaining dens. Maybe next spring at the annual Pack planning meeting - the Web2 will be gone and I, the CC, and the Advancement Chair can re-inforce / re-establish some guidelines for DL's and parents to make sure achievements are actually being accomplished. Our Webelos1 DL, our Bear DL, our 3 Wolf DL's, and the Tiger DL all get it and have set expectations. They work with the parents to insure acheivements are being met. My only rub - a majority of the "its not fair" feedback I am getting comes from a couple of the lower rank DL's. My delemia is: HOW? Do I influence my lower rank DL's to let the issue drop and still encourage them to provide the high level of integrity they have towards rank advancement in their own den? My reasoning is this: The DL involved has been around MUCH longer than me. His scouts are going to age out next year. They are marginally active and I have heard very little talk of them persuing Boy Scouts. They are small (3 to 4 boys in the den), in a pack of over 50 scouts. The strong DL's I do have (in Web1, Bears, 3 Wolf dens, and Tigers) make up the majoity of the pack. They understand and support the "program" much more. I just don't want the precedent to be... "well if you hang in there until Web2, you're going to make AOL". As we have only graduated our first Web2 den last year, we don't have a great amount of history to go on. The two scouts that did earn AOL last year - I was Tiger DL at the time, so I don't know if they actually did it, or just got it "given" to them. However, knowing those two boy's parents - they did everything by the book (plus some extra along the way). Thanks again for your input - please keep more coming - not an issue I look forward to facing, b/c I'm going to have to be the "bad guy" to one side or the other eventually. I just want to make an informed decision before I take action. Thanks again- Dean

Guess I need to turn in my son's and my membership cards... Went camping two weekends ago... It got cold at night. Son has a cammo print ski jacket (non-military issue) and I wore my trusty ol' Gortex field jacket (sans rank) from my active duty days. Oh yeah, and I packed some of our clothes in an old issue cammo soft back day pack... and I used my "helmet bag" as a brief case for files and paperwork. Come to think of it - I use my 'helmet bag' at most ALL scout meetings as a brief case - even when in class A uniform at district and council events!!! Can't believe they've let it go on this long without me being tarred / feathered / and run out of town! Crap ! - and I wore my black Army issue rappel gloves when I was putting up / tying some ropes. Dang! I even used my old OD green canteen and metal cup in front of the kids !!! Crap - I'm expelled for sure now !! I understand the whole, don't do cammo w/ the blue shirt (or a Boy Scout shirt for that matter). But the link to the DE that expelled a dad and son from membership and a campground is just a LITTLE over the top. If that actually occured (which I hope it is just part of Scouting's urban ledgends), then the DE should be asked to step down as well for a willful display of breaking the scout law in front of numerous scouts in his charge... A scout is friendly, courteous, kind? Loyal? I guess not. I can see the DE taking the Dad aside and saying, "Hey, that isn't cool, it doesn't set a good example - would you please change." If the father refused - then address it at a later time. Unless someone is in direct violation of YPG, fire safety, or is otherwise placing themselves or other scouts in an unsafe environment - it would be very ill advised for a DE to eject them from a campout. Let alone - revoke their membership in BSA, plus getting local police involved. Didn't know DE's had unilateral power to do such a thing? I'll have to look into that one. Besides - the DE would be bringing trouble onto their counsel with such action. Most DE's I've seen avoid confrontation like the plague. All that over a pair of pants? Seems like overkill to me.

Any and ALL awards earned should be presented at the next availible opportunity for the scout to receive them. Usually the next Pack Meeting. If we are not having a pack meeting that month (we take Dec off), or the Pack Meeting that month is taken up with an activity (i.e. Pinewood Derby), then we acknowledge the scout at the Pack Meeting and have the award presented at the next Den Meeting. The only exception to this is Rank Awards, which are done with a short ceremony and only done by the CM, ACM at the Pack Meeting. Never hold an award unless you must - award the acheivement as SOON AS THE CUB has earned it. My 2 cents. YiS, Dean

So, I see an issue on the horizon for our pack... I want to put it out there for the group and see what sticks: Advancement vs. Achievements We have a few scouts that are active in the Pack, but do not actively work towards achieving their rank. I'm fine with this. We provide program that offers opportunities to do activities that lead themselves to rank advancement, but we do not (nor do I want to) put on a belt-loop-o-ramma, or rank-o-ramma, etc... The few scouts that have historically not made advancement a priority in their scouting are approaching their age out into Boy Scouts. The delemia: What to do if the DL for these scouts suddenly puts them in for the Webelos badge and the Arrow of Light (AOL)? (we've had two scouts so far put up for Webelos badge that I'm pretty sure did not complete all the requirements)... however proving this is a hard thing to do. While I know the requirement to pass an acheivement in cubbies is "Do your best", that kind of implies an attempt will at least be made. I as a CM also know I cannot add / delete from the requirements for a given rank. Also, there is no BOR for any cub rank (to include the AOL), so if the parents say the kid did it and the DL is willing to sign off - I am really reluctant to question if ALL achievements have been done. With that said - the AOL does have requirements (such as visit Boy Scout Troops / Go on a Boy Scout sponsored outing / etc...) that requires a local tour permit be filed for the activity. The boys obviously haven't done this if the tour permit was never filed (unless they did it without a LTP - which I or the CC would have known about). Bottom line: What (as a CM or CC) would your course of action be within the pack if you have a few scouts being presented for rank advancement (any rank) that you have strong suspicion had not at least made an attempt to complete the achievemnets. Yet, you have parents and DL(s) willing to sign off for them? One part of me thinks it needs to be enforced because it cheapens the rank award for those that actually do the work to attain it. I am getting some pressure from other parents within the pack to address the issue, using this as their argument. The other part thinks the only one really being cheated is the scout who gets the rank without putting in the effort. Its kind of like two kids in the same class doing a report, yet one kid's parents do all the work for him. They get the same grade, its not fair, but the one that gets hurt in the long run is the 'cheater'. In cubbies, you are specifically prohibited from any type of "test" or Board of Review for the scout - that is adding requirements which is not allowed. So... sage old CM's (and the young ones too) - how would you / did you handle such a situation in your pack? What was the outcome? If you had it to do over agian, what (if anything) would you have done differently? While not a front burner issue right now - I see this as the freight train 2 miles up the track, its not slowing down, and my shoe is caught on the railroad ties... Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any insight you might provide. Dean

The Lems aren't dead - you just have to not let the beuracrats knock you down. Example - there are TWO ways to read the G2SS, one is "what does it say we can't do ?"... the other is "What doesn't it explicitly prohibit us from doing ?!?!" I opt for the 2nd way as much as possible and stretch the limit as much too. Case in point. We had a PACK (mind you cubbies) campout last weekend. I took my climbing gear and made a pully system up in a tree branch about 20 ft up. We tied swiss seats (practicle knot lesson) for the boys and took turns hoisting them up to get a new perspective on the campgrounds... Now, some would tell me that as cubs they are not 'allowed' to do any climbing activities... BAH !! It wasn't climbing, they were tied into a static line with beaners and being lifted by a non-slip, man powered lift. They loved it and it was FAR safer than the boulder bounding we had going on at the last campout... can't keep kids off rocks, might as well keep 'em safe! We also did BB-gun and Archery. Those were the two big highlights. So they still crave outdoor adventure. We just cannot be complacent about giving them opportunities. As for Red Feather and his "scouting pedigree" - WTF ?!?! Who cares? Is the volunteer excited and ready to help / lead? Did they go through the required checks and training? Then who gives a DAMN what (if any) scouting expirience or "pedigree" they have. One of the BIGGEST problems in BSA is the intellectual inbreeding and flat out stubborness I've seen by people who THINK you must be an Eagle or had Wood Badge (or both) for your input and ideas to carry any weight in the organization. If such folks were half as concerned about program content as they are about their own clout within the group, then BSA would be a much more dynamic organization. Give me an enthusiastic leader that is willing to train, passed the YPG checks and has fun ideas - I don't care if they ever made it past Bobcat as a kid.

'The problem is too few parents want to make their scout's advancement a priority in their son's development" Who ever said that Advancement should be a priority? It is just a method of helping us get to where we need to be. When we make it a priority, we have made a real mess of things. Eamonn. Eamonn - I disagree totally. When the pack LEADERS make it the priority, we have made a real mess of things. However, the parents should make it a priority b/c this is how their son develops through scouting. If the parents and the scout are fine with just hanging out, having fun, going on outings and campouts, but never earning a rank - then good for them. However, if little Johny Smith is in tears come the last Pack Show of the year b/c he didn't make rank, I'm sure not going to answer to Mr. or Mrs. Smith for why their son fell short on acheivements. As a CM - I put the opportunities out there. I make people aware of them. I remind them at intervals throughout the year. I remind them as the year comes to a close. I'll take the horse to the trough, but I'm not going to force its head into the water. I just don't want to hear its still thirsty once the opportunity for water is gone. The title of the thread was "Who should take care of Cub Scout Advancement?" - my answer was and still is: It rests with the scout's parents, guardian, etc (Akela at home).

I agree 100% with SSScout- What your intention is is a great thing. Just be very careful what you wish for. It should be a fun day that happens to include opportunities to do things towards advancement. Even if you do get your DE's approval - I would HIGHLY recommend making it mandatory for the cub to have an Akela along. Especially if any of the activities are going to include fire (i.e. cooking) or knives (i.e. whittling chip). If a cub burns or cuts themselves, its best that they do it under direct supervision of their own Akela, not some adult leader from another pack that the kid doesn't know. Permission slips are a MUST - if something bad happens and you don't have them, good luck getting council or BSA to back you up. You have a great intent and lots of KUDOS for thinking about taking on such a task - just remember Murphy's Law and the fact that he was an optimist You are building yourself a mighty big sanwhich and are getting ready to take a HUGE bite out of it.... make sure you have enough adults around to help you eat the whole thing. Good luck.

In Cub Scouting it is the role of the Akela (i.e. adult helper) be that mom and dad, an older sibling (over 18), gandparent, etc... to aid the cub in their advancement. The Pack program should offer opportunities for cubs to earn acheivements towards rank, but the completion / sign-off responsibility falls to the Akela. We just wrapped up a weekend family campout. As CM, I went so far as to list out by rank and acheivement number a miraid of things we were going to be doing at the campout that could count towards a given cub's rank. In addition, they had the opportunity to earn 4 belt loops. I made an announcement at the first evening of camp that the adults should get one of these sheets from me to track their scout's activities for the weekend. I also stated that the Akela should use the sheet as reference to their cub's specific rank, sign off what they did, then turn it into their DEN LEADER who would forward it to the Advancement Chair for the pack. I still had about 6 to 8 parents ask me if I was going to put their scout in for the belt loops they earned this weekend !!! What? I can hardly put on a program, keep track of my own kid and what he's done, and still run the classes / etc. I absolutley HATE for a scout to miss out on an award - but 99% of the time they do its because the PARENTS (i.e. Akela) fails to follow the guidelines with regards to advancement turn in deadlines / etc... I have had numerous parents come to me and state, "Well you were there at the event, I thought you were going to put Johnny in for z,y,x ..." No, my job is to run the program as laid out by the Pack Committee and the CC. Additionally, I am responsible to turn in MY scout's advancement info to his Den Leader by the deadline just like everyone else in the pack, or my son will wait another month to get his award, just like theirs will have to. The responsibility lies with the parent(s) / Akela. If the scout fails to make rank by June 1 of the following scout year, then the Akela needs to have a talk with their scout about planning, sticking to a schedule, and personal responsibility. We have as an agenda item for our committee meeting tomorrow night: Where do each of the Dens stand on their advancement for the year? What can the pack do to encourage? What can the DL's do to encourage / help? But, bottom line - if the scout doesn't do it (and the Akela doesn't guide the cub), then I won't hand it out. There is NO rubber stamping of awards. It cheats those scouts that actually DO the acheivements to EARN the rank. The rank is EARNED, not GIVEN. I don't care if its a Tiger Cub Rank Badge or an Eagle Award - you either did the achievements to earn it or you didn't. The only way the unit can know is if someone takes the responsibility to DOCUMENT the scout's advancement. We have over 50 cubs in our pack. Its dang near impossible, not to mention unfair to expect the pack leadership to attempt to track / guide each individual scout over the year. Periodic checks / encouragement for the DL's and parents - YES... take the responsibility from the DL's and Akelas - heck NO! If a pack wants to do an "Advance-aree" to help promote advancement within their pack, then good for them. Hopefully, they set it up so that the Akelas are heavily involved in the teaching. If its a round robbin classroom with little parental involvement, I would question what (if anything) it does to promote family time together and personal responsibility / initative? Those are two of the main goals of the Cub Scouting program - 1) Family time together and 2) Foster Independence in the cub. BTW - the old addange of "I'm too busy to do it..." is a parental cop out. Every adult leader in our pack (myself included) works full time, has other kids with other activities, etc... Like my father used to tell me when he asked me if I completed a task and I stated, "I just ran out of time..." - Answer, "No son, it just wasn't that important to you, you failed to make it a priority." The problem is too few parents want to make their scout's advancement a priority in their son's development - so those that are involved resort to MBU's and Advance-O-Ree's / etc... to substitute for parental involvement.(This message has been edited by DeanRx)