DeanRx

This is why I'm SOOOOOO glad our council has a championship PWD at the Scout Fair following the regular spring PWD season. They have been running it for a very long time and have a set standard of rules. We cut and paste it for our pack PWD. Bottom line, if you win the unit PWD, then you get to race at the council event. If you are out of specs at council they will DQ your car, so we want to send forward a valid entry, thus we use their rules. I had to explain this to more than one new Tiger parent this year b/c they didn't understnad. Once informed, they were fine with it. WE also run an unlimited class for parents / siblings / anyone else that builds a car. We had ONE scout car show up at the PWD this year with machined wheels (they were thinned to about 1/3 the normal width, so easy to tell). We gave the cub and parent an option... 1) Use a standard set of wheels (we have extra on hand) and they could have some extra time to change the wheels out on the car, then re-check it in. OR 2) The cub can run in the unlimited class, but will not be in the running for pack champion. We put the ball in the family's court and they decided to run unlimited without changing out the wheels. No hard feeling and I bet they pay bettter attention to the rule sheet next year. We also make sure and have enough time at the end for "grudge" races. In those, the boys get to run the track themselves if they want to... but the cars on, reset the timers, run the start gate, etc... The best was a four lane race this year between a cub's car, his sisters car, the cub's car from last year, and his dad's car from 20 years ago.... they ran a very tight heat! It was fun for the family and fun for everyone else to watch.

I think you use the old BSA adage... "We are to run the program to national standards." The BSA standard for severe weather preparedness is: 1) Adult vols have the online training 2) We have an action plan 3) The scouts are informed of the action plan 4) Once during council outings - the plan is practiced If BSA doesn't say to do one (or multiple drills) at a unit level campout, then the old "we cannot add or detract from the requirements" should suffice. If not - then politely ask this Dad if your unit and scouting in general are the right fit for his son. Only he can answer that one. He can hold his son out of any activity he wants. However, he should NOT be allowed to dictate policy to the entire unit. If all else fails - ask him to sign up as an adult leader. HE can do the online training, then tell him he has 15 minutes MAX to do a briefing on the next campout regarding severe weather. $10 says he'll back off the second you recommend he do anything other than complain about how others are running the program. The longer I'm a leader (in the military, in business, in scouts) - the more I live by the adage that I'm willing to listen to constructive criticism so long as the "complainer" is willing to present and help act on a resonable solution. If they just want to stand on the sidelines and moan about how things are being done, well I have very little use for them. Some people just like to piss in other folks' Kool-aid.(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

We have a team of 3 inspectors. One does the initial car checks and if there is any questions, doubts, it is put to ALL 3 judges. A simple majority rules. This is all done BEFORE a car is allowed into the pits and no changes (to include additional lubing of wheels) can be made once cars are in the pit area. If this car was no in spec, it should have been caught and DQ'd BEFORE it was allowed to race - PERIOD. If your track team failed to catch the issue, and it passed inspection, then it should allowed to run. It was a breakdown in the check-in system that you need to look at correcting for future years' derbies. Glad it wasn't my kids car, as if it was allowed to run and win up to a certain point and then DQ'd - I have a BIG issue with the way the race was being handled. Just my 2 cents... DeanRx

Holy crap ! - Look what I started. I just wanted to know WHO to tell and HOW to tell them if someone came on the site and satrted flaming every post with profane language and offensive ideas. Now it is indeed the inmates running the asylum !! I'm running away and locking the door behind me !!!!

bsrsakima39- " It can definitely burn-out volunteers, and I hate to see good men leave because it is so much work, but I would also hate to see a lawsuit brought up against the BSA that forces it to limit the program even more. So, if the pain-in-the-butt protocol allows us to continue the program, I am wiling to deal with it." Without trying to be offensive, do you honestly KNOW how scary that type of mindset is? What you just stated is that the risk of a potential lawsuit is of greater importance to the organization than the risk of burning out the volunteers who run the program. People ARE the program. No wonder we have trouble getting parents to be involved. My beef is precisely the fact that BSA national holds this same mind-set. The conecpt is not lost on any adult volunteer that sticks around for more than one training. If the protocols change the organization to the point that it is no longer serving the goals of its stated mission, haven't the outside forces that wish to see the program fail succeeded in their goal? There's no need for the lawsuit, they've already won. I guess thats the real rub. We all agree BSA has changed. Some see it as being degraded, a shaddow of its former self. Others still think the changes have not undermined the principles upon which BSA was founded. Guess only time will tell. I myself see both aspects at different times within the program.

Bsrsakima- No offense taken and I appreciate your comments. I understand what you mean by doing the program for the kids of today, not the dads who want to relive their youth. Might I suggest, howver, that there are dads out there that want their sons to have similar expiriences in their youth to what we had? That's my point. The bottom line is - due to no fault of my own, I now fill out more paperwork / forms, submit to background checks (presumably now multiple times as BSA see fit), and have more requirements for adult/boy ratios for a weekend pack campout than MY father's generation dealt with when taking a group of scouts into the backcountry for a WEEK !! That's not nessisarily a bad thing - but also, it does nothing constructive to add value to the program provided to the youth. In fact it serves to alienate and burn-out the very adult volunteers the organization needs to survive and thrive! I see an organization that in many cases values bling and badges over actual competency in the skills said badges atest to. This mixed with MB universities and a wood badge program that looks more like MBA training than outdoor leadership / youth adventures training. I often see an organization that claims to be inclusive and tolerant hold nationally sanctioned policies that are frankly thinly disguised biogtry and prejudice against certain subsets of the culture the "boys of today" live with, play with and interact with. Additionally, this same organization spends how many fundraising dollars per year (no one knows b/c BSA will not disclose its legal expenses) to continue to defend said national policies in court. Money that could be used to better serve youth by upgrading infastructure, camp facilities, etc... Now - I don't condone or approve of these lifestyles. But at the same time, I do not condone BSA's stance against these groups either. And I especially don't like a portion of my donation dollars going to support the legal defense of what I view as flawed policy. However, I do love BSA and what scouting does provide for the youth far outwieghs any negatives and thorns in my side I might see as an adult leader. This does not mean I will stop working internally to persuade those in power within the organization to change for the better. You can argue both sides of the gay / atheist issue forever. What few can disagree with is this: 1) Kids are overscheduled as it is 2) Kids benefit from being outdoors and from unstructured play / unstructured learning and discovery 3) Kids spend all day in a classroom, how does doing that on a weekend make them a more well rounded person? Much of scout advancement has moved to a classroom type environment. 4) Scouting should be a game with a purpose, not a purpose disguised as a game. Or worse yet, a class with a MB trophy at the end of the day Thats all I'm suggesting. Boy led vs adult led - whatever works for you. But, how do you KNOW the boys can't lead it if they've never been given the chance, nor been told you believe they are capable of succeeding at it? How can the youth have the confidence needed to succeed at a boy-led-troop, if the adults surrounding them do not believe in them enough to let them try at it and fail? To me BSA should be about ADVENTURE, LEARNING, SEFRVICE TO OTHERS and LEADERSHIP all through an avenue of outdoorsmanship. In a lot of ways, BSA does a great job at this... in many others they are about 180 degrees away from the stated objective. Gotta work to change that. To me - changing the name from "tap-out" to "call-out" is a prime example of the PC, helicopter parenting, over-protecting, attitude that has the potential to degrade the program from what it used to be and what it should be. One final example: I went to BALOO training last year. Over 50% of the songs and skits I remember as a scout - the REALLY good and funny ones - are now 'banned' from use because they are either offensive, non-PC, or are disrespectful to authority (well duhhhh) or disrespectful to our sense of patriotism. What the heck happened in the past 20 years that made those songs go from being silly and slightly off-color, to too toxic to be sung? Somewhere along the way things changed, but the kids haven't. I guess if I were to sing, "Mine eyes have seen the glory fo the coming of the lord, he is screaming down the alley in a green and yellow Ford...." I must not be a true American (regardless of my service history)and probably going to hell for stating that my savior would drive a U.S. made vehicle. Why else would this song be on the 'banned' list? I was "tapped out" into the OA, and thats what I shall call it.

Robotics would be cool, but I would think it would overlap with electronics MB and computers MB. Then again this field grows so fast, its hard to pigeon-hole it. GPS - this needs to be wrapped into map/compass/orienteering etc... I would vote for a LAND NAVIGATION MB that should cover map skills, terrain association, orienteering by compass, stars, sextant (or other non-electronic means) and finally GPS. Such a badge could cover Geocaching as well. Even though I love doing it, I don't see how geocaching should be its own MB. SCUBA - is it its own MB? What about snorkelling? What about free-diving? Shouldn't those all be combined into a DIVING MB? Just my rambling thoughts...(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

As I posted in the orignal thread, I think communication and education is the key. First - you teach the scouts to recognize a potentially dangerous situation. Second - you teach them to react to it properly. Third - you provide safety protocols and adult supervision that serves to minimize the risk in any activity. I like the idea of not only formal safety training for a given risky activity, but a continuous classroom. Example - We (son and I) went camping two weekends ago with 3 other dads and scouts from our pack. Not a pack thing - just friends getting together to camp. Several times throughout the weekend, the boys were quized on a variety of safety issues - but it was a casual talk... 1) Why do we not take pocketknives out in the car? Why do we only unfold the blade when we are sitting at a location and going to use the knife, then promtly close the blade when finished with the task? A: Because movement in the car, or walking, running, tripping with an open pocketnife can equal big cut for oneself or someone next to you. 2) On our hike, as we left the car... OK, HOW would you get back here if you got turned around in the desert? A: We are parked on a dirt road with telephone poles running along side it. This is the only road in this area with telephone poles, so that will get you back to the road at least.... follow on - The pole we are parked by is the only one that has a single brace on it - all the others had two braces per pole. Additionally, We are hiking in mid afternoon, so our shadow is pointing to the south / southeast. We are walking with our shadow pretty much in front of us.... so to get back to the car, your shadow needs to be behind you or you're going the wrong way. 3) Back at camp - Can I put this in the fire? A: (as already stated from tonys) If it goes in the fire, it stays in the fire. And, put the marshmallow ON the skewer before you start moving it around so at least the points are covered. All those answers came from the boys after thinking about the question posed. These are cubs in their wolf and bear year. The goal is to get them to THINK for themselves about safety and be proactive in their approach. Finally - letting them know its OK to question an adult if they think the adult is about to do something unsafe. Showing they that you can still question others and be respectful at the same time. Lastly, that THEY are responsible for their own safety and if they are confronted with an unsafe environment, then THEY have the right and responsibility to "LEAVE THE SCENE" no matter who's in charge and go tell a trusted adult, and keep on telling them until you get them to listen. Also, one thing I drill into my son - LISTEN TO YOUR GUT. It is a hard-wired 'fight-or-flight' response that has been ingrained into humans via natural selection for millions of years. It is seldom wrong. If you EVER get that gut feeling that something is not right - it probably isn't. Don't be afraid of offending anyone when you listen to it. This works for fire safety, risky behavoir safety, stranger danger, safety online, etc... (it also serves VERY well in playing poker, but thats another thread). If you get the 'fight-or-flight' feeling, run, scream, kick, bite, until you get into a situation you KNOW to be safe with a trusted adult. The last thing you ever want to do is talk yourself OUT of listening to your gut. No one ever died from being too vigilant, many folks have died because they convinced themselves they were being hypersensitive or over-reacting to a situation. The G2SS is a great resource, but all it really does it help mitigate risk. Untimately, the individual is responsible for their own safety. The earlier a kid learns this, the better prepared they are to react to a potentially dangerous situation.

This is truely a tragic event and underscores the reason training and adult oversight are paramount to scouting activities. I hope all involved can find some peace in time from this event. Not sure what prosecuting the young man will accomplish. Then again, I'm not the grieving family, so who's to judge. As for the hand sanitizer debate. While I agree that soap and water will do the job and should be encouraged, lets not lay the blame on the 'fuel' used in this incident. If this tragedy had occured because the young leader flipped his car on the way to camp with scouts riding with him, would we be calling for everyone to use horse and buggy to get to camp? After all they worked so well for so many years and no flamable liquids involved (unless you count the manure). Additionally, if this tragedy came about because of a careless act on a range, does that mean BSA should change the guidelines to firearms for future generations of scouters? I doubt it. This comes down to TWO things: 1) I poor decision by someone that was supposed to know better and be setting the example and 2) Lack of appropriate adult supervision / oversight. The truth is this poor Eagle is probably a really ggod kid and the majority of his life he acts in a responsible manner, likely better than most peers his age, but just this one slip... Doesn't matter if he was tossing a baseball bat into the air and it accidentally hit the other scout on the head and killed him - it was a moment of bad judgement in which fate dealt a superior bad hand for his poor decision. That's sad and he has to live with the outcome (whether its fair or not) for the rest of his days. Reminds me of when I was learning to drive and my father kept reminding me, "You only get one chance to be in a fatal accident." I got fed up with hearing it and finally said, "I think your just trying to scare me when I drive, Dad." His reply, "Damn right I am... better scared and alive than foolishly brave and dead." His point - it only takes one instant of inattention to undo years of safe driving and wearing seatbelts. Bottom line - people (not just young adults - but they are more prone to it) make bad choices / decisions all the time. I would venture to guess that the majority of the time people get away with the poor choice, be it speeding, playing with fire, cheating on a spouse, doing drugs, etc... The reason for training and safety protocol isn't for the majority of times that we act foolish and nothing horrible comes of it. Its there because the POTENTIAL for a horrible outcome is greatly increased because of the choice. If its a 1 in 1000 chance, the odds are not very high. Unfortunately, there are those times that the 1 in 1000 comes up on the first roll of the dice. Thats when families are left to pick up the pieces and the only ones that are able to learn from the mistake are those that by some act of God (or fate) were standing just far away from the incident to not be seriously hurt. I would hesitate to crucify the scouts involved, nor would I suggest a major change to any BSA fire safety stance. Other than maybe this... It is imparitive that ALL scouters, regardless of age, rank, tenure, or maturity level are trained to SPEAK UP when they observe or are about to observe an unsafe act (of any type). I'd bet there were several (if not all) the scouts standing around the "circle of fire" that in their guts were thinking, "Hey, this really isn't a good idea.... someone could get hurt...." but because it was a "leader" doing it and they likely didn't want to be called out as a sissy or a kill-joy they failed to speak up. That silent peer-pressure can be a killer. Make our scouts aware of this.

Sorry this is a little long winded, but thought I'd share a piece I was inspired to write after a campout a couple weekends ago. Not really a SM minute, but I don't know where else this would fit on the boards - hope you get something out of it. ************************************************************************ From campout 3/14/09 Dinty Moore Stew As we pulled into camp at 3100 ft ascending from our afternoon hike on the valley floor, the temperature had dropped over 20 digits to 56 degrees. The onshore flow was picking up as dusk was rapidly approaching. Paul, Jim and Anoop tended to getting the stove started and dinner cooked. The boys, Carson, Ryan, Aaron and Rohith returned briefly to their boulders for one last climb before sunset. I was sure glad to leave the thousands of day-trippers on the valley floor, returning to our secluded camp and occupied myself with getting the campfire started in the tin washbasin that was required for any open flame inside the state park. Once lit, Anoop took over tending the flames. I wandered off to a nearby grove of trees providing me a windbreak for starting my lantern. Fellow campers, present company included, have poked fun at my stubbornness in using such an old Coleman lantern on campouts. They ask me if I know that Sports Chalet sells newer models. Its an old 1940s model handed down to me by my uncle Mark. He and my aunt Cecilia never had kids and he had gotten the lamp from his father, now since past away. Still in the original red metal carrying box and it still had the 1st glass globe it came with. Jim commented that it would likely fetch a good price on E-bay. Other than putting new mantles in it Ive always gotten it to light, even if it was a bit testy sometimes. Tonight, I wouldnt be so lucky. In my impatience to get the dang thing going, I probably flooded it out by over priming the thumb-pump. At least the other guys had their lanterns and we werent relying on mine for camp light. Ive always kept the lantern and the old Coleman stove Mark gave me. They still work and I cant seem to bring myself to discard a piece of camping gear that is still useful. Maybe its my connection to campouts of the past. Maybe its my link to my family back in Nebraska. On this trip, Carson and I slept in an old 3-man dome that my father bought for our family sometime in the early 1980s. Anoop and Rohith shared the second one. Aside from the elastic in the poles loosing their resilience and some slight off-coloring of the canopy from decades old water sealer, they work as well as when Dad bought them. Good thing too for tonight, they would be tested. The wind would not die with the setting sun. I return from my unsuccessful lantern lighting to find the four boys all huddled around the fire asking about food. Jim fashioned a makeshift windbreak from a tarp, some cord and a U-shaped piece of tubing he found discarded on the perimeter of the camp. Its not much to look at, but it does the trick. We setup the folding table on the downwind side of the windbreak and bust out the mess kits. Salad, BBQ chicken and rice. Paul should plan the meals every time, I think to myself as we dig in. For sentiment sake, Jim breaks out a large can of Dinty Moore Stew. Tearing the label from the can, he vents the lid and places it directly on the coals to cook. While the boys finish off their chicken and prepare to gorge themselves on Smores, I pull the lid back on the can of stew using my pocketknife pliers. I then move whats left of my rice to the side of the bowl and scoop out a generous helping from the smoky can. As I peal off the lid, I hear my fathers voice in my head telling me that this is how they cooked it in Viet Nam. I remember questioning back then, if they really had Dinty Moore stew in Viet Nam. Twenty some years later, I still dont know the answer. But, I do know my father cooked his C-rations this way in the Army. He had passed this culinary campfire knowledge to me. Now Carson, his 8 year old grandson was fresh with the same skills needed to make his own hobo stew. As I brought the first tastes of slightly overcooked, campfire smoked, canned stew to my mouth the aroma brought back a flood of boyhood wilderness memories. The time in Colorado when we hiked Notch Mountain together as a family. I think this was the reason Dad bought the dome tent. My sister had to of been a year or two older than Carson was now. I was probably about 13 and somewhat experienced in my camping with scouting. We did a 10 miler from base camp to the summit to look across the valley at Mt of the Holy Cross. I remember the awe of being above the tree line for the first time in my life. I also recall my father getting pissed off at me and my sister because we ran so far ahead on the trail. He made me carry the daypack for part of the journey, just to slow us up. There is something magic about a hike like that. Pushing up to near 13000 feet, having a snowball fight at the summit in the middle of July. I remember we were not supposed to cut the switchbacks on the upper route and we carried out everything that we took in with us. It might have been called Leave No Trace back in those days, but I only knew it as, Leave the place better than you found it. By my second and third bite of stew, my thoughts were on to the boundary waters of Minnesota. That trip was just Dad and I with the scouts. My mother and Jennie had gone to Chicago with some friends as I recall. Fifty miles in seven days by canoe and portage. We bear-bagged our food every night and still managed to have a sow and cub come into our camp and make a try for our food about half way through the trip. I thought it was exciting. My father had other adjectives he would have used to describe the encounter. I caught the largest fish Ive ever landed on that trip. It was a huge pike. As fishing stories go, the thing gets bigger in my mind every time I think of that fish. I know this. We had 6 or 7 guys in our crew and we all ate off that pike that night. This is the same trip I scarred my foot. My lure got fouled on some rocks about 20 feet from shore. Since the water is so clear, I could see the lure. I decided to put on my trunks and swim out to untangle my line. Before my father could speak the words of warning, I was down to my shorts and in the water. Not only had I shed my clothes, but my hiking boots too. The rocks in the boundary water lakes are unglaciated. This means unworn and sharp. I thought I had just stubbed my foot on the way out to the lure. Once back on shore, I found a deep L-shaped gash on my right foot that probably should have had stitches if there would have been an ER within 250 miles. We butter-flied it shut the best we could and thankfully it didnt get infected. Thats alright scars, like my stew, are reminders of adventures you have lived. I would examine that scar as I slipped into my sleeping bag later tonight some 25 years later. Finally as I finished my stew, my thoughts turned to the people that I have known through camping and those who knew me. There was Dorothy Molter the Rootbeer Lady on an island in Minnesota. She lived out there by herself and sold homemade root beer and packs of spare leaders and hooks to any of the canoeists that came her way. I read on the internet that she had passed away. No surprise, she was well on in years when I was 15. Some society dismantled her cabin and moved it to a museum outside of Ely. You can still order a 6-pack of her root beer online if the mood strikes you, but I doubt it tastes as good as it did on her island oasis. There are others, my own family, my mom and sister, especially my father. He didnt have to take time to show me about the outdoors, how to hunt and fish, how to respect and care for the world around you, but he did. Some of my best memories as a kid involve him and a tent in Colorado, Minnesota, or at Camp Augustine on the Platte in Nebraska. There is Dr. Mike Kleppinger, my old Cubmaster and father of my friend Stan. I last heard Stan was teaching high school music somewhere in Iowa. He and I used to play poker for candy late into the night on campouts, in the same tent Carson and I would sleep in tonight. There was Dr. Will Locke, my Jr High history teacher, ardent scout supporter and the guy who hatched the idea of the Notch Mountain trek. He led a group of older scouts up Mt of the Holy Cross at the same time the younger ones did Notch. I remember him as a tall lanky guy who liked to run. His appreciation of nature and the outdoors was strong and he passed it on to any student that would listen. I think Dr. Locke and Jim must be long lost twins; they are sure cut from similar cloth. The first time I met Jim, memories of Dr. Locke jumped into my head. Mr. Stewart was my Scoutmaster. He drove around in an old Army Jeep and they lived in a house on the edge of town. He was all about the camping, getting outdoors. His son, Joe, was a year ahead of me in school. Joe was a good kid, but could be moody sometimes. I think he got a kick out of playing the role of disaffected youth a little too much. Maybe it comes with the turf of being the scoutmasters kid, similar to being a preachers kid. Being a year older, he was cooler than me and I was never really sure if I fit in with him or if he was going to exclude me from his circle of friends. I remember in high school, their house caught fire and was pretty much a total loss. I asked Joe about it. He replied that it was all cool because it meant he got to get all new stuff. I dont really know if he truly felt this way, or if it was a teenager playing off a huge loss in his life because he didnt want others knowing how bad it hurt to loose your belongings. Anyways, that comment always stuck with me. Funny how a few words or a single sentence can stick in your brain like that. I vividly remember Mr. Stewart at scout camp. We were gathering for a huge bonfire. I dont know where I got it or why I was even trying it but for some reason I had my first dip of chew in my mouth on the way to that bonfire. We get there, about ten of us in our Troops group and sit down. Now, Mr. Stewart could have sit anywhere with our group. But, as you might guess, he plops down in the grass right next to me. Now, how am I supposed to spit without being seen by my Scoutmaster? Im not sure if he did it on purpose or if it was an act of God, but I sat through that bonfire with a wad in my mouth and no place to spit. It got to the point I couldnt take it and forced myself to swallow the saliva building in my mouth! I remember only two things from that bonfire. First, I puked in the tree line on the way back to camp. Second, I have never to this day ever been inclined to try chewing tobacco ever again. I wonder if Im doing them all proud. It feels wonderful to spend time with friends and especially my son outdoors, but its really a selfish endeavor. Its male bonding, father-son time, but the undercurrent to it all is nostalgia. I often ask myself if Im doing a good job of paying it forward to the next generation. Do I find the right balance of fun and teaching when Im out camping with Carson and other boys from the pack? Will they overlook the lessons and just see it as fun, much as I did as a kid? Finally, will they grow to understand the importance of having places to go camp, nature unspoiled, appreciated? My hope is that once Carson has kids of his own, hell look back on these times with a great sense of wonder and awe. They should be the epic adventures and romantic remembrances of his childhood. They are for me. Maybe thats why I use the old tents, the old stove and lantern. Heck, our mess kits are even my fathers and mine from our respective days in scouts. Its nostalgia in action and a tactile connection. I will likely never have the opportunity to have my sons camp with their grandfather. The old gear is the link between generations, the tie that binds. Its funny to think all those memories were triggered by a musty tent and a can of stew. I count these new campmates as close confidants in my history, just as I hold on to those that shaped me as a youth. It was a one-nighter, not even a full weekend campout, but it left a history in my soul. It was the campouts of the past, mixed with the campers of the future. Almost as if the flames of the campfire forge the bond between the campers who sit around it. Three days after the trip, I happened to smell the stale smoke from the camp fire still seeping from Carsons heavy coat in the laundry room. Even then, in that split second I was transported back to the memories. Joe, Stan, my father, Dr. Kleppinger, Mr. Stewart, Dr. Locke, their faces all there. But this time Carson, Jim, Aaron, Rohith, Anoop, Paul and Ryan infused in the memory as well. I pray the memory will be enriched as future campouts add to the play list in my mind. Luke and Jennifer are not far behind. How exciting and exhausting it will be to have both boys out under the stars, my wife along for the adventure instead of at home with the baby. The two brothers climbing the boulders of Anza Borrego, spying for chuckwallas or scorpions at dusk. If by chance we are ever lucky enough to summit Whitney or Half Dome together, will my sons be struck with the same awe I experienced that first time above the tree line? I hope so.

Marlin (Nemo's Dad), "You think you can do these things, but you can't. You're just not strong enough..." Marlin, "I just don't want anything to happen to him." Dory, "That's a strange wish... its not much of a life if NOTHING ever happens to him..." Not to hijack the thread - but guess I was left with a slightly different impression by the movie. Dean

If they have a 3rd grade little brother - then the 3rd grader can join a PACK and the family can participate in family campouts with the Cub Scout pack. I would use this as an angle to encourage this Dad to go that route. The Boy Scout can camp w/ the Pack and meet some advancement achievements by performing as a Den Chief. The converse is not a good idea, and detracts from the purpose of the Troop. If it absolutely had to be done, then this father (or any others) needs to be informed up front that the younger sibling will NOT be inserted into a patrol (other than the adult patrol) and that not all activities will be age appropriate for the 3rd grader. What if you are at a council sponsored camp and they want to shoot 22-cal. on the range? Nope - 3rd grader (cub or not) can't do it. A more simple example would be a hike. The older scouts are on the campout to have fun and be challenged a little. How can that happen if the 3rd grader can only manage a 3 to 4 mile hike at best? You have scouts in the Troop that could likely do a 8 to 10 as a day hike. Is the entire group going to be truncated to 4 miles b/c of this non-scout sibling? No. If he is allowed to go, then the expectation should be that the younger son and dad remain in camp and the DAD (not the Troop) is responsible for providing his 3rd grader age appropriate content to keep the kid entertained. We have similar issues w/ cub scouts and very young sibs coming on family campouts. Fortunately, we have a uniform policy and understanding w/ parents that 1) We will have some activities for younger sibs, but they are the responsiblility of the parent(s) and 2) We will not attenuate our pack activities to accomodate the sibs. We've had kids in diapers (my own son included) who have camped with us. I doing the pack stuff and my wife hanging in base-camp with a few other moms and taking the little ones to the sand area or wading pool while we go hike. BUT - I (as CM and committee member) do not plan, nor take any responsibility for those younger sibs. The parents need to be prepared to entertain their younger ones so that the scouts and leaders can concentrate on scouting. If that is not happening, I would politely ask the dad to stay home with the younger sib. His scout son could still attend, assuming he is willing to sign the permission slip. Sounds from your post, however, that you might have a Chinook parent that is making some broad assumptions about program and bending it to his will without the consent of the Troop leadership. This is not so much a camping policy issue as it is a Troop Committee needing to stand up for its Troop and project some leadership.

See Disney / Pixar movie "Finding Nemo".... enough said.

Thanks for the info... I knew there were mods, but had no idea how to identify them. Looks like that poster last night must have been a juvinile messing around - judging from the content, the verbage, and the spelling errors. Either that or they were just as dumb and ingnorant as their posts. Dean

Looks like we have a newbiw that has decided to infest these good boards with inappropriate content today. I looked and tried, but couldn't find a "report to moderator" function on this site. 1) Is there one? If so, where and HOW does one use it? 2) If there is NOT one - I would strongly suggest that one be put into place so that the community as a whole can detect and refer to the mods anything that could be offensive so that they can review and remove (if need be) in a timely manner. Thanks in advance- Dean

Scouter760- I agree. However, I have been corrected more than once by present day OA members (mostly the adult Boy Scout type - same ones that will nit pick you about badge placement on uniforms / etc...) that "tap-out" is no longer an accepted term b/c of the negative connotations associates with any hazing or rough play that might have been tolerated (dare I say encouraged) in the "old" OA. Somewhere between the mid 80's and today - its been PC'd up and now must be called being "Called out". Just one of the many over-corrections I see in BSA from the time I was involved as a youth and now am involved as an adult... I agree a tap-out does not nessisarily mean a physical "roughing up". But much like the PGA that renames events with a sponsor change and pretends that the old event never existed, the BSA has chosen to change the name of the initiation ceremony, so as to mark a departure from the old ways and pretend that such physical "tap-outs" were never part of the BSA honor society. I called it a "tap-out" to a council OA rep last year at a scout fair and you'd of thought I told him I had brought pot to the event. In hushed tones he pulled me aside and sternly told me, "Its not refered to that anymore - we now do a 'call-out'. Tapping out is not allowed by BSA anymore." Tap out / call out - whatever... just like most things in BSA - its been watered down and almost ruined by an over-reaction to a few isolated incidents and a generation of helicopter parenting.

ScoutNut- Thats my point exactly. The funds belong to the CO and by default the unit. I agree that a scout that drops shouldn't get a "refund" check cut to him or his parents. However, I do see it as a double standard if the same scout gets his personal account $ transfered to a troop from his old pack when they crossover from Webelos. My point is - that is NOT the scout's money to take with him to a troop. If it is earmarked for individual scout accounts, then the scout either needs to use it while still in the unit in which the funds were raised, OR they forfeit the money to the unit's general fund. I say its a use or loose issue and should be stated as such up front when a cub joins. To have money from cubs follow a boy to a troop, yet retain a drop-outs money in the pack's general fund creates a double standard within the unit. Double standards begets problems in my expirience.

"Hey Dad!, look at me !" anytime I've had my back turned for more than 3 minutes or am trying to get the campstove lit... This weekend - "There was a rockalanche..." while four 8 and 9 y/olds were bouldering near our campsite. "I got to go #2..." usually uttered right after you've left the filling station packing lot, or out on the water, or at the furtherest out point on the day hike. "Why do you have your pocketknife open in the car?" followed closely by, "Ooooopppps !!"

There's a REASON proper elections use secret ballots. Unfortunately, your CM just proved WHY its needed. Declare a miscount and have a revote using a ballot system. All scouts in the Den will vote at the same time. Do not announce it until it is happening. List the 4 finalist names that they can choose from. This gives those scouts that MIGHT have been influenced by the CM an opportunity to change their mind w/out the CM being able to call them out on it. Then tally the votes - simple majority wins. If at all possible, do this all in one meeting - no one gets to "absentee ballot" afterwards. If anyone asks WHY - then tell them without invoking the CM's name that you believe the previous vote might have been influenced by an outside force and leave it at that. The kids will overlook it and the adults that know about it will see it for what it was - the CM overstepped and you let him know that you know without actually confronting him about it. Then name your patrol and move on with life. Good Luck YiS, DeanRx

Yeah, but John.... was your mommy and daddy allowed to come along with you on the trip? The fact that you were led off either with your eyes shut (or blindfolded as I remember I was) would constitute hazing. I had a similar expirience, but 1/2 way through being led to the campsite, we were told to "stay put - another Arrowman will come and take you on the rest of the journey" - then they made you stand still by yourself, blindfolded in the woods for a minute or two before the other OA member let you knwo they were there and going to lead you to your asigned sleeping place. We were allowed to bring a sleeping bag, a poncho, a canteen of water, a pocketknife, and your BSA handbook - everything else was left at your tent back in camp. I also remember being made to fall backwards off a picknick table and being caught by my Arrowmen brothers... I'm SURE that was considered hazing in the 80's as well. But it was openly tolerated, if not encouraged.

I still don't understand how some of the packs out there only send monies to a troop if a scout crosses-over. Those that don't and drop, the pack keeps the funds? I'm glad its worked out thus far for those units. However, I am VERY surprised you haven't had a scout's parents hit you up for "their share" of the scout's account when the scout doesn't track into a Troop. Maybe its because most of those that cross-over are the activies with larger amounts in individual accounts? Those that are on the fringe and drop-out likely haven't been very active in fundraising, I would assume, so maybe they don't have much $ to ask for? Still - seems you would be setting yourself up for trouble when one set of rules applies to those crossing into a Troop and their is a seperate set of rules for someone that simply ages-out or quits. Hope no one that quits has a parent that is a trial lawyer - I'd think the unit would be up to its ears in hot water.

"Let yourself be an 8 or 9 year old boy sometimes" Crap... you've discovered the VERY reason I do this scout stuff !! My cover is blown !! Everyone has made good suggestions. Let the boy's response be your guide. Plan the meeting, but don't make it tight or too ridged that you can't shift gears if need be. Scout Mom SD has good insight. Her Den was one of two Tigers when I was the other Tiger DL. I honestly thought our pack was going to loose that Den of boys about a 1/3 of the way into the Tiger Year. The parents in teh Den came together and since then have really "team taught" for all there meetings. It works for them and they have a great den to show for it. I am surpirsed by the gender role examples given by 'Scout Mom SD' - just knowing her personality and view on things, but she's right - each leader is going to have their own style and own strengths and weaknesses. Gender does tend to play a role in what you might be strong in or feel uncomfortable doing. Figure out what YOU are strong at and indentify other parents that can help you with other activities that might not be your strong points. You can trade off running the meeting - OR you can plan the majority and maybe have two other adults help. One to bring the snack, the other to have a craft / game / song ready to go. Make it goofy, make it fun. Self depricating humor goes over big with Tigers and Wolves. Having an adult play the fool or be the target of the joke is absolutely hilarious to boys this age - and it shows them how to take a joke without getting their feelings hurt. Mostly keep it fun. One quick example then I'll shut-up: We had our B&G a couple weeks ago. It runs LOOOOONG (as they tend to - every one wants their rank and every other award given at B&G). The scouts were getting restless and I (as CM and MC) was about to loose my audience to talking and inattention. So what did I do? The scout sign to quiet them? NO. Lecture about being respectful of others when they are getting their award(s) - OK maybe a short reminder. BUT - what I did was stop the show... asked ANY scout that wanted to to come up on stage with me, we were going to sing a song, BUT they HAD to sing and do the actions... well we did the "Grey Squirel" song and shook our "tails" at the audience. The boys roared, and then roared more when I required ALL parents in the audience to sing it and do the acitons too. Funny thing - once they finished and took their seats, I was able to get enough attention / quiet out of them to complete the awards and finish up the B&G program on time. If I hadn't made that program adjustment on the fly, the crowd would have been very restless - the scouts at the end getting awards wouldn't have felt respected and I'm sure the memory of the B&G would have been less positive than it was. Bottom line - don't be afraid to improvise to burn off the "wiggles and giggles" and grab the attention of your audience with something fun. Best way to keep them engaged is to keep them guessing at whats coming next - fast transitions equals not getting bored. GL - its exhausing and fun at the same time. DeanRx

I would advise a couple of things.... 1) Absorb them into the Wolf Den for the time being. 2) Begin recruiting NOW for a new Den Leader. Flat out ask each parent of the 3 remaining boys. Remind them that THEIR son's enjoyment of scouting is directly linked to the amount of parental involvement. The only reason I caution you about taking on the extra Den on a permanent basis is, once you do it there is not longer any incentive for any other parent to step up and LEAD. What happens if the Tiger DL does the same thing (hopefully not - but it could happen). Are you going to fold them into your den as well? 3 is a small number and can be incorporated if need be. However, I would reserve that option as a last resort after politicing ALL the other scout parents to consider stepping in as DL. Offer to hold their hand and help them, but you need to get someone (other than you guys) to commit to this Den. Additionally, if you and your husband are the 'driving force' in the Pack and not one else is stepping up, what happens to the pack after your boys age over to Boy Scouts? Does the pack then die b/c of lack of leadership? As a CM, I'll be the 1st to admit I raise my hand FAR too often to chair activities / events / etc... One thing I have made an effort to do is put leadership opportunities out there for other parents in the pack. Noone wants to volunteer to organize the campout? Then if not - we might need to cancel it. Funny how the sign-up sheet tends to fill up after an announcement like that. Its really sad, but sometimes you have to GUILT TRIP parents into becoming involved with their kids. But in the long run most adults will find they like it AND its good for both the scout and the parents. Its admirable that you want to step in and help. However, I would resist the urge to automatically 'fix' the situation, least you become the 'do it all' family in the pack. Good Luck - YiS, Dean P.S. Welcome to the boards...

I was "tapped out" (opps not the PC term anynmore) in the mid 80's. Granted, I haven't been active as an adult and my old lodge has been folded into another lodge back in Nebraska. BUT - from an outsider looking in, OA has seemed to morph into a continuation of rank. Its like the Eagle of camping or something. You camp enough and have the skills, you get in. While I completely understand BSA'a reasoning for taking the "cloak of secrecy" off the ceremonies and putting the lid on any hazing, I do think its harmed the "fraternal" concept of OA. To me the tap-out, Ordeal, and any hazing that might have gone on constitues a right of passage for a scout. Its an attitude of "I don't know exactly whats going to happen, mom and dad aren't here to sweep in and protect me, but I can get through this and I TRUST these guys I'm joining to maybe scare me, but to keep me safe". That type of expirience tends to BOND people together into a cohesive group. Its the very reason the Marine Corps has the "Crucible" at the end of boot camp. Its why every formal Army school I attended ends with a large field exercise where you are placed in unknown situations and must work as a team to be successful. I'm not suggesting that OA be given free rein to run-amok with initiations, but there is a POINT to the secrecy, the element of the unknown, and being forced to trust your fellow scouters without parents hovering at every turn. When I was "tapped out" the remaining scouts at the campfire did not see much of the ceremony. All they saw was the candidates lined up, a short presentation about OA (like 5 minutes on who they are what they do), then those choosen were tapped (pushed on the shoulders by the 'tapper' and caught from behind by two scouts - could NEVER get away w/ that today) and imediately taken from the council campout campfire area to the "secret" OA fire ring, were the induction continued and you began the ordeal. For those not choosen, it kept an air of mistery about what happens at OA. For those tapped, it started the process of indoctrinating them into the fraternity of service. Again - I am looking at the process from a distance now, but it seems its more of a ' you do the time - you'll get in ' society that is long on the history, but perhaps short on the maturity / skills of those selected. If there was a way to reinstate some of the mystery and 'unknown' to OA, it might carryover into a scout actually taking the honor of being included seriously. Just my rambling thoughts...

Welcome Rene, Glad to have some active youth on the boards. Just understand that some of the topics discussed are more about running the "program" side. Some things that normally wouldn't be discussed in front of the youth in BSA (for good reason). However, as a seasoned scout and well on your way to Eagle, there's not much here that would surprise you too much. Dean