DeanRx

This is a sad reminder of how one person's actions (or maybe two people's actions) - can have a very negative effect on a unit or organization. I remind my cubs that they are scouts and to be aware of how they act in public because they carry their reputation, their family's reputation, the unit's reputation and ultimately BSA's reputation with them wherever they go. As an aside - I certainly understand the council's wish to take quick ation, but it seems odd that the council would release to the press: "We were shocked and deeply saddened to learn about the allegations against this council volunteer," said Alicia M. Lifrak, the scout executive for the Lewis and Clark Council of the Boy Scouts of America. "Upon learning of these allegations, we immediately revoked her membership. She will never be allowed to participate in Scouting again," Lifrak said. Heck- the DA hasn't even formally filed charges and the council has revoked membership and stated to the press that "She will never be allowed to participate in Scouting again." Crap, thought this was the United States, presumption of innocence and all that! Sounds like she was caught pretty red handed (or with her pants down as the case may be) - but what if she is found not-quilty or additional information comes to light? I would think the council execs would choose their words to the local media a little more careful. Openning yourself to a defamation or slander suit I would think by jumping to an assumption of guilt. I can see a statement of, "We are shocked to hear of the allegations. The BSA is cooperating fully with the investigation. This volunteer's membership has been suspended pending the outcome of the authority's investigation. We will take appropriate action once all facts come to light. As of now, Ms. XXXX will not be allowed to act in any leadership role or have interation with any BSA youth until the criminal investigation is complete." Guess YPG is there to CYA. Not only don't do it, but make sure you don't even get accused or have an incident where someone could question your intent, or the local council will just come along and kick you out, so as to show they have a tough stance on 'would-be' abusers.

I have several, but my favorite of all time so far.... Last year in between heats at the PWD (which I was MC'ing - while trying to fix a bug in one of the timing lights). PWD was held in a public park structure (barn) rented from the city and there are soccer fields and a playgound close by outside. Mom to me: "Who's supposed to be watching the kids out on the playground when they're not racing?" Me: "Scouts outside the barn are the responsiblity of the parent / family / guardian." Mom's next Question: "So, who's supposed to be watching the younger siblings on the playground while the boys race?" Me: "Same person who watches them when you take your family to the park and there's not a scout event going on." Mom: (Deer in headlights) - "I don't understand." Me: "I bet you don't, Ma'am."

If the Cub is a WEb I or Web II, and the parent has signed off on the achievement and the DL has approved it and you are NOT the DL - there is very little you can do about it. If you ARE the DL, then you need to step up and have a private conversation with the Huey-parents about the intent or scouting and the expectation of the scout "Doing his Best". if you have a Web who has this going on AND the parent IS the DL - again, very little you can do about it, other than have a talk and hope they see the light. BSA guidelines expressly prohibit the testing, CM conference, or BOR for scouts in the cubbie program. How other than these tools are you going to confirm that the scout didn't in fact do all the achievements, just with "help" from the Akela? Its a tough spot and I wish it didn't happen, but if you are the CM, ACM, or another committee member (or parent of another Web in the Den) there is very little you can DO about it.

Everyone needs to look at what ScoutNut has posted. We can debate the merits of having Tigers memorize(or other ranks for that matter - all new cubs must 1st earn the Bobcat, even if they join in their Web II year), but its not our place to say it must be memorized. In cubs, they have achievements. The requirement for completing an achievement is to "Do your best" and have the Akela sign off on the achievement. This is then reported to the DL and in turn the DL reports to the CM that a cub has met the achievements for a given rank. The DL and CM (or any other adult in a leadership posistion) are not encouraged and are in fact prohibited by BSA national guidelines from "testing" the scout in any wasy shape or form. Cubs does not have Cubmaster's conferences, DL conferences, or BOR's for this very reason. Bottom line - if Mom or Dad or Grandma signs off on the achievement, you (as a unit leader) are to consider it completed. If you want to encourage retention, then its a good idea to incorporate the oarth, law, etc... into your meeting openning and closing as repetition works well with kids of this age. Its not a big issue with the Bobcat, but what happens (as did a year ago in our pack) when some of the parents (some committee members included) began to question if a couple of the WEB II put in for their AOL had actually completed all the requirements. I (as CM) did some research and more than a little soul searching. I discovered (to both my relief and dismay) that the issue was out of my hands. If a parent signed off on it and the WEB II DL was willing to attest to it - I am not allowed to question it - period. Again, one can debate ad nauseum the damage done to a youth who's parent's are willing to let an achievement slide, just to make sure their son gets AOL before aging into Boy Scouts. I personally would argue that parents doing such are doing a grave disservice in the raising of their son, the least of which is the worries about 'cheating' to get a rank in scouting. Not to mention they are really setting the boy up for failure in Boy Scouts, when there are things such as BOR's to insure the tasks for a rank are actually learned and retained (at least long enough to regurgitate them at the BOR). To require a cub to memorize the achievements for Bobcat is contrary to the guidance given by BSA on the matter and is in fact "adding to the requirements". Thus, it should not be done as a requirement for awarding the rank. IMHO - it SHOULD be done throughout the cub's career, not only to serve to aid the lad in learning the words, but also as a way of emphasizing the EXPECTATION that the boy do his best at all times to live up to those promises he has made to himself in front of his parents, Akelas, and friends. encourage memorization - yes require it before awarding the rank - no

I'm w/ BrentAllen on this one. The need for young boys and adolescents to be taught by and see positive male role models is a very important part of thei development. The elementary education system and predominantly the middle school and most of the high school system is weighted heavily towards female leadership and influence as a matter of history and at one time practicality. I don't care if scouting wants to go co-ed in the US. We have co-ed units that show up from Mexico at our scout fair and other events every year. The YPG issues can be handled via the Venturing standards. The one thing (and I expect the flames to come from this one), I would like to see BSA national and councils emphasize is adult leadership by MALES. I hate to say it, call gender biased if you want, but as more females have served in positions of leadership in BSA, the less "tough" the organization has become. The more "feelings" have played into what is and is not acceptable behavoir. Some of this is good and some not so good, but IMHO - the largest issue is that boys need to learn from men how to be a man. This is not a "woman hater" stance, just an observation from my world view. I think parents of both genders play an important role in development, but the need for fathers to spend time raising their sons has never been so important and has likely never had so much societal pressure stacked against it. With that being said - their are plenty in my own gender that need to be willing to step-up and take on that responsibility. I have a lot of mom's in my unit (some single parent and others married) who have told me on several occasions how thy wish their husbands would take a more active role in their child's development. That's one of the saddest things I ever hear. I see it as the natural thing to do. WHY? Because I had a father that saw it as the natural thing to do and therefore this to me is how a "normal" dad interacts with their son. Those that only saw a father figure as someone who works to keep a roof over their head and food on the table are more likely to be the same way when they have kids of their own. Those that see an absent father are more likely to abandon their own offspring to be raised by single mom's in the future. BSA offers an opportunity for boys in such situations to be influenced by positive male role models (even if it isn't the child's own father). I think co-ed would be fine. But, I think BSA needs to emphasize the MALE ROLE MODEL as much as possible as well.

I'd say view this as the blessing it is... 1) You have a pack secretary... most packs don't have one 2) She actually followed through on the event without you having to hand-hold her the entire way 3) You have someone you know can get things done without much supervision. You might just want to have a quick talk with her and let her know you were confussed because you thought the correspondence was set-up to come to your house and that you would have liked to have known about the change of plans. THEN THANK HER for taking the ball and running with it. Volunteers like her are hard to come by... don't chase her away because the adults want to get in a contest about who is or is not in charge of an event. As a CM going on my 3rd year, I'm so happy when I have a person I know I can hand off an event to and not have to worry about it getting done. I remember one main thing from my CM training, this old grizzled SM told my group, "As CM and CC, your job is to make it fun for the kids and be a duck to the adults. That means run the program so the scouts have fun and learn the lessons along the way. As for other adults, you will step on some toes and get yours stepped on from time to time. Be a duck. Let it roll off your back, continue to run a good program and move on with life. Use those that volunteer to the fullest extent, good volunteers are too few and far between to allow a misunderstanding to drive someone away." I've even repeated the phrase "be a duck" to myself or other leaders.

Our Dist Day camp only allows siblings of campers who has a parent volunteering that day. The sibling must be under age 12 and at a minimum walking and potty-trained (our day camp is at a local park outdoors, no crib or baby changing facilities availible). Technicially speaking, the "tot-lot" is just a kid watch service provided for the adult volunteers. The parent has to sign a permission slip, the "tot" has a sticker ID'ing what area of day camp their parent is volunteering in so they can be found quickly if need should arise. They have a minimum of two adults and then a good number of older sibling girls (11 and 12 y/o) that help out. The tot's take part in most of the day camp activities (songs, skits, etc...) within reason as their own seperate "patrol". It works well, falls in line with state regs., and keeps the volunteer numbers up for daycampers.

I'm realatively new to the scouting as an adult leader role... 3 years in and 1.5 as Cubmaster. We HAD a District Commish, and now its been taken over by one of the folks that used to help run the RT's. The one thing that really sticks out to me in my short time as adult leader is this... THE GOALS OF THE DISTRICT COMMISSIONER ARE OFTEN AT ODDS WITH THE GOALS OF THE DISTRICT EXECUTIVE. Plain and simple. From what I know, the Dist. Commish is a volunteer (read that as NOT PAID) position that has the task of supporting / enhancing existing units by promoting training, helping with struggling units, developing best practices to share at RT's, etc.... The DE on the other hand is a professional scouter (read that as GETS PAID TO SCOUT). Their focus is usually not so much on existing units, but on the establishment of new units (i.e. grow the numbers) and in funding the district / council (i.e. seperate people from their money via FOS, corp donations, etc...) The job of the National Commissioner IMHO should be to make sure that the roles of the council and district commissioner's are given equal weight as the professional scouter's roles are given. You get above unit level and its all about increasing numbers and increasing funding. Somebody needs to be acting in the interest of the hundreds of volunteers that give of their time to BSA at the unit and district level.... that to me is the main, if not ONLY focus of the National Commissioner. National (heck council for that matter) always seems to wonder WHY their is such distain towards the professional scouters from the volunteers... well, most the time its because a good number of the vols don't see anyone from National looking out for the unit's best interest. I've personally seen multiple occasions when council and higher strickly looks out for itself, not the units. We need a volunteer voice at the national level - that SHOULD be the role of the commissioner.

I don't know about all Christian faiths, but in the Catholic Church it seems it is a diociese by diociese decision. My Grandfather's church used to have the U.S. flag on one side (to the right of the audience / left of the pulpit) and the Papal flag opposide on the far corners of the front of the sanctuary. It had been that way since I was in diapers. He had been a member their since I was in diapers. They got a new Monsenior a few years back and Grandpa shows up for mass and the flags were still in the sanctuary, but at the back near the entry vestible, both of them! Grandfather spoke to the priest at the end of mass (as a WWII vet & Purple Heart awardee, not to mention former Marine Raider - Paps wasn't all too happy about the change). Priest told my Grandfather that the new leadership didn't want to over "emphasize" the flags in the sanctuary, so the decision was to keep them, but place them at the rear of the church! As Grandad put it to me, "The only reason I didn't kick that moron's a** right there was the fact that he was an ordained man." In their attempt to appease both sides of the issue (those that wanted the flags in the church and those that thought it best without) - they succeeded in offending both parties as those that wanted flags gone were upset that they were still there and those that wanted them in the church were furious that they would display the U.S. flag (and for that matter the Papal flag) in a manner showing such disrespect. Grandad wrote to the Bishop, the Cardinal, and even the Vatican (yup - Paps wrote the Pope). The reply at all levels was "This is a parrish by parrish issue and we allow the senior parrish priest to dictate flag protocol in their sanctuary on a per parrish basis." The outcome was that my Grandfather quit going to that church and now goes out of his way to attend mass at another parrish that still displays the flags at the front of the church. Sad it came to that, but it was his decision to make. Funny thing is, his old church moved the flags back up front after that priest moved on because they had lost too many members to the neighboring parrish over the ordeal. Just goes to show - you CAN influence the church, you just have to hit 'em in the right place.... the collection plate

Irsap- While its great if your son has found a good fit, I might advise taking a little break and allow yourself to BREATH a little before jumping into an ASM role. While I'm an active CM, I've had many conversations with ASM and SM from Troops in ou area. They all agree that a 6 month "cooling off" period for a parent when the scout transitions to a Troop is good for both boy and adult. One SM told me, "A lot of parents, especially those in pack leadership positions, want to jump right into the Troop too. Problem is, they have been used to leading and sometimes find it hard to back off and let the Patrol Method work." The gist of his statement - is that sometimes its hard for a hard charging leader parent that is good for a cub pack to allow and accept the chaos and non-prefect execution of a boy-led patrol method troop at first. So, the best way to keep the troop from becoming "adult led" is to ask the newbie parents to take a 'time out' from a few months and just enjoy scouting with their son. Not sure if you fit that mold or not, but I'm pretty sure I'll be in those boots in about a year and a half. At least you're reciting to yourself "its not about me..." It'll sink in sooner or later. Have fun - glad he has found a group of guys he fits with... that's 90% of the battle right there.

I've been taught in every training that advancement is but ONE of the methods of scouting. Unfortunately, it often becomes the ONLY method the adults (and by default a great deal the lads) pay attention to. Requirements are not minimums, nor maximums. They are the requirements. You have a list of them and you are either a 'Go' or a 'No Go' at each bullet point. Those positions that have time requirements have been carved out through nearly 100 years of tradition and innovation of working with youth. Those that set the standards might actually have some reason for why they are there. That being said - if I had a scout that was ready to advance and only waiting on a POR to open up in a "mega-troop", I'd likely be looking for another troop. When I was a scout, our unit had about 40 guys in it. The only real "additional" rule our SM had was to encourage scouts to not duplicate POR's for different ranks. This makes sense to me as the aim should be to encourage the scout to try on different hats within the youth leadership, thus gaining a different perspective with each leadership expirience. It should be about what is LEARNED within the time in POR.... not just marking the time off so you can go to the BOR and state, "Yes, I've been the quartermaster for the past 6 months.... did we camp? ummm, no. Did I help log and repair troop equipment? umm.... not really...". Not a very good use of time in that POR IMHO.

That kid is amazing !! - Gives me hope for the future if we can get a few more like him to think, remain calm, and then act in a decisive manner. He had good training from his brothers and scouts - but he made the decision NOT to be a victim - great job! Hopefully, well see his write up soon in "Scouts in Action" in Boys Life, he certainly deserves to be there. Dean

I agree John, What a sad, sad day for my beloved Army. To hear it happened from within the same medical corps I served with makes it that much more difficult to grasp. I have trouble believing it could happen from an officer trained to render aid in such situations as well. May God Bless the soliders and families of Ft. Hood and all our service members.

The 3 largerst issues I see for the loss of boys: 1) Competing interests: girls, music, sports, etc... all that ramp up around age 14 and sometimes a kid has to choose. If you miss practice, you don't start. If you miss the scout meeing, you can still go camping. 2) The AoL as a finish rather than a starting point in scouting. Its far too easy to view the end of Webs as the end of scouting and move on to other persuits. 3) THIS IS THE LARGEST - IMHO... The true LACK OF ADVENTURE availible to the scout between the ages of 10 and 14 years old. They are done with cubs, they have family camped and done BB-guns and Archery ad nauseum at that point since age 6 or 7. Problem is, they can't do many of the high adventure stuff in BSA until age 14!!! I understand the legal and liability issues BSA has painted themselves into a corner on the age cut-off. No cope, no black power, no shotgun (or really any other gun besides a 0.22-cal) until age 12. This gives an aged Webolos / Tenterfoot scout one to two years of "You can only do the things you've already done.... wait until you're 14, then you can cope, climb, rapel, shoot black powder, etc...." They get bored with the things they have already done and don't want to wait around until age 14 to do the cool stuff. Besides why wait for cope, when I can sign up and play full contact football, hockey, or LaCrosse age age 10 to 12? Sorry to say, but that is what BSA is completing against for the free-time and money of the adolecent youth. Co-ed, might keep in some kids longer, but you think we have YPG fears now... just wait until Suzie and Johnny get caught together in the same tent. To me its lack-luster PROGRAM and lack of adventure between the Web-II years and the 1st to 2nd year of Boy Scouts that make it easy for many to leave. Heck, most years our Web-II scouts don't even participate in our PWD... they've already done it for 4 years and its viewed as a "little kid" thing. Same thing with BB-gun and Archery... been there done that. Thankfully, I have a couple motived Web DL's that are lining up Web only campouts this year so they can go do some longer, more involved hikes / adventures without worrying about the Tigers and Wolves being able to keep up.

shortridge - you're splitting hairs on this one. The semantics are in the definition of "seperate sleeping facilities", isn't it? Why is it OK to segregate male from female via a tent wall in an outdoor camping situation, yet to wall off with rope and tarps a seperate area in a large room to divide males from females, its not allowed? Aren't most tents made of poles, rope and tarp? I've been to council events with both male / female adults and scouts all sleeping outdoors on the baseball field... there were not curtains, tarps or other barriers. AS for a unit function, males and females in seperate areas, with privacy screens and no one under age 18 in the over 18 area for both genders. If a family wants to stay together all in the same space - they need to spring for their own cabin, or sleep outside in their own tent. Simple as that. Do your best to provide privacy, don't mix gender and adults / youth in the same area of the building when sleeping and practice 2-deep leadership and it'll be fine. I've seen it done in an area like a large gym, with youth on one side, females on the other, and adult males in a third corner. The center floor area is a "no man's land". They had seperate bathrooms and changing room by gender and age adjacent to the gym. That was at a council sponsored event, so it must be OK. Dean

Sorry Brent- but nowhere in my posts did I ever advocate for teaching the kids it is OK to use profane language. I am a realist, I know it exists. Do I like it, not really. Can I control it, probably not. I'll I'm suggesting is that one chooses the battles wisely, especially if you're going to fall on your sword for it. You go to the mat on every little thing and soon you become the adult that "wigs out over every little thing... so just don't pay attention to him/her". Again - I go back to my previous statement that there needs to be a point in the scout law regarding the self-righteous. Cast the 1st stone and all that good stuff....

So, since its not OK to drink around the scouts, then I should never have a beer? Its not OK to hunt with scouts - I should never hunt? Sorry, don't quite follow your logic on that one. There are many things that are not black and white and NO our youth detention centers are not full of kids because they were taught "moral relativism"... they are full because noone in the kid's life took the time to TEACH them to determine right for wrong in the context of a dynamic world. 60 years ago, it was OK (in some circles even encouraged) to dislike someone because of their skin tone. There were many that would suggest that I would be teaching "moral relativism" if I suggest that blacks and whites and every other color should be allowed to date and marry. The norms change with society - thats just how life is. The trick is to teach proper JUDGEMENT. I don't swear a great deal. I'm not proud that I do. But I do it. I try my hardest not to do it in situations that I know would offend folks. I just don't think the majority of one's character (mine or someone else's) should be based on one facet of their personality, especially as one dynamic and varried as language. Situational awareness has nothing to do with avoid one's weaknesses. Narraticong, do you really have to ask WHY there are some things that are OK amongst adults and not around kids? Some things are OK for adults and not kids - period. And no, thats not justifying it. And double no, I do not have to explain it to the kids. BrentAllen- we're not talking about teen pregnancy, under-age drinking, or doing drugs. For all of those issues you raise there are LAWS that make it illegal to do so (statutory rape, drinking age laws and drug laws). There is no law I know of that makes it illegal to use foul language - in fact I'm pretty sure that type of thing is protected by our laws. Please do not suggest that kids who cuss are more likely to drink, do drugs or get knocked up... there are plenty that do these things that use clean language as well. If there is an issue in your unit address it and be done with it. But please do not suggest someone else is less a scout or a poor leader because they take the position that its "out of sight, out of mind". Really, its just words. Some folks are just wrapped too tight most of the time. Go ahead and stamp it out - the boys will just make up new words and code words to mean the same thing and you can chase your tail trying to curtail those. The more an adult pays attention to it, the bigger deal it is and the more likely the boys are to latch onto it and make and issue of it.

All great suggestions so far... to me it boils down to a two-pronged approach: 1) Be candid and frank to any parents making the "swooosh - swooosh sound". Explain, and then re-explain the purpose of boy-led. 2) Set the scout up from an early age to be self-reliant as much as possible. Example - cubs at resident camp this year. Some in the mess hall were waiting to be served. I remarked how they were going to stay hungery if they didn't get their own plates and their own silverware and go through the chow line themselves. Funny how many actually thought I was going to try and serve them all. It became very clear after the 1st 24-hrs in camp who had chores / responsibilities at home and who has stuff done for them all the time. Maybe suggest to the heli parents that they begin with a small list of daily or weekly chores for the scout to help with around the house. The point is for the scout to become a self-starter and the parent to allow them to find initative. The attempt at the task is much more important than the quality of the task completed. In our uber competetive, zero-defect, perfectionist society, the art of learning from failure is a hard one for many parents to allow their child to expirience. Most parents view a failure, no matter how minor, a reflection of their parenting skills. Some parents (most in fact) just need it pointed out that its not about them or their parenting, its about the kid's journey of self-reliance. Sometimes be direct, sometimes use humor. I've actually had the following conversation with one of my cubs' mothers: Me: "You ever seen the movie 'Finding Nemo'?" Her: "Well yes, why?" Me: "You remember the giant turtle named Crush?" Her: "Yes." Me: "He allowed his son to attempt things on his own instead of doing things for him? Even if it meant the kid would fail." Her: "Yes...." Me: "All I'm asking is for you to be a little more like Crush and a little less like Marlin." At a future campout, I actually heard her and another mom psyching themselves up to let their boys do a boating activity by saying "Be like Crush" to each other. Maybe they meant it, or maybe they were poking fun at my analogy - but either way - it got the point across.

I would say if you've been directed by the COR that the original 10 not be split up, then the COR and the CC need to meet with the new scout's parents and determine WHO is going to step up and be the DL for the ones that have recently joined. The COR is WAY out of line IMHO and unless they can give a better reason than (I just don't want the original 10 split), then they are not helping their own unit. The CO owns the unit and with input from the COR aaproves WHO will be in key committee positions (i.e. CC, CM, ACM, maybe treasurer and DL's). The CO and COR should not be involved in directing program or determining unit structure. If the CO doesn't like the job the CC and CM are doing - they can choose to replace them, but that's about where their authority ends. CO's are not likely to replace folks willy-nilly or they'll soon find they have no pool of candidates to run their unit. At this point - I'd say keep your orginal den and put the task of finding a second DL for the late-joining scouts squarely on the shoulders of the COR and the CC (since the CC and committee doesn't seem to want to support you in this either). The DE is a retard for suggesting you start a new pack. That's their answer for everything... well that and "when is your next recruitment night?" or "When is your next FOS presentation?" DE's are good at trying to stay out of unit squables... I'm honestly surprised your DE would even discuss the matter with you. Most would turf it right back to the unit committee as an "internal unit issue" not a district level issue. Good luck, but remember - you are NOT required to take on additional scouts if you don't feel you can handle the increase in numbers. Sometimes if you don't make a stand and force some folks to volunteer to be leaders, you'll find you are the only one raising your hand. If the new families want their son's to have a positive scouting expirience, then someone (or two) will step up and lead. Otherwise, the kids will go do something else. That part is not your fault - do not let anyone from the committee or the COR guilt you into thinking so. Good Luck

Please do not take my previous post as an endorsement of foul language. I was just pointing out that the socially acceptable dialouge changes based on WHO is around. Cussing at scout gatherings in general is a no-no. If the boys are doing it, they should be called on it. If they are doing it behind the backs of the adults, then there is little you can do about it. If some are doing it and a few are "tattle-tales" (for lack of a better term), then do you really think you are making those scout's lives easier by reacting to the situation? As for the "you either live the scout law or you don't".... don't get me started on that one. There needs to be a 13th point about "I scout is not self-rightous". Far too much of that going on in BSA as I've seen. A scout is 'clean' - I understand that. I am not saying one should go out of their way to use foul language, but it should NOT be held as the only (or even the most important) trait when judging one's character. "Morally Straight" - that is open to interpretation... who gets to set the morals? I would argue that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is not very "morally straight" but BSA has chosen to dig their heels in on that one. What of "trustworthiness" - This one seems to be very low on many scouter's list (especially council offices recently) when dealing with promises / commitments made with regards to popcorn sales and camping reservations. Who is the less scoutlike... an adult / scout who cusses or an adult / scout who makes commitments to do something for the unit or community and then no-shows or backs out at the last minute? What of "Thrifty" - Yes the economy is in the toliet, but I've been hit up 3 times this year to increase an FOS donation that I already gave more than I've ever given... where does thrifty line up against clean in the order of things? The only time I've heard from our DE in the past 6 months is for him to ask me for money or for him to ask me to ask the parents in my unit for more donations. Yes, there have been curse words regarding him uttered under my breath... no I don't appologize for it. Real men may not curse, but they also follow through on their commitments, they provide, they do what they say they are going to do. So what if I might use some colorful speech once in awhile, so long as its not around scouts, not around kids in general, not around those that I know would take offense. That to me is the LESSON to be taught. It is situational awareness. It is taloiring the standard to the dynamics of the event / listener. To state "You either believe in the oath and law or you don't" or "You either follow the oath and law or you don't" is to oversimplify the life lessons scouting aims to teach, IMHO. Do you believe in the oath? Yes. Do you do your best to follow it? Yes. Are there times when you haven't? Yes. No one is perfect. We must get away from teaching kids that everything is ALWAYS black and white. They need to be taught that there is a right and wrong time for most things in life and how to determine the CONTEXT of appropriateness. Otherwise, we end up with cub scouts being expelled from school for bringing a camp utensil for lunch, or a girl being kicked out for giving Motrin to a classmate for menstral cramps, or people in general who can't think for themselves and make a case-by-case determination of what is appropriate in a given situation..... Oh wait.... all those things have already happened and that attitude exists in our society today.

I must admit I'm more in line with BrotherhoodWWW on this one. Instead of trying to control, conjole, ban, or guilt, how about a SM minute about the proper use of language in general. While I agree that integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is watching, I'm not sure the same applies to social dynamic situations such as language. It seems to me, a great many things change between acceptable and unacceptable based on the circumstances and WHO is around you and WHAT you are doing at the time. Flinging profane language at a scout meeting just to try and look cool, thats just dumb. But you hit your hand with a hammer while setting up your tent and one slips out... not that big a deal. Its the CONTEXT not the CONTENT in many cases. Call me old fashioned, but there are certain things and certain language that should not be used around females (the majority of them anyways) and usually your elders or kids. Do I cuss in front of my scouts? NO. Do I cuss when playing cards with my buddies who also happen to be leaders in our unit - you better belive it, and so do they. Do we cuss in front of our wives? Depends, some do, others do not... it also depends on the situation. The thing about rough language and boys between 12-18 is not only does it add to the "cool" factor, but many times its a bond and rite of passage. Its an attitude of, "we can talk like this around each other and we're close enough and have each others' backs to know you aren't ratting me out to my folks and I'm not ratting you out either." There's a lot of "us" versus the "adults" at that age and this is one thing the boys can control and ramp up / ramp down when there are no adults in ear shot. As a previous poster pointed out - his son stated the language in the unit is only cleaned up when there are adults around. Thats fine. Not because it means the youth understand the "standards" or expectations. But because the youth has LEARNED the socially acceptable time, place and context for such activity. To me cussing is a lot like copulating and going to the bathroom - everybody does it, some find it difficult to hear / discuss / and acknowledge the existence of. But when it comes down to it - its not the act itself that is vulgar, but the context. Have sex, go to the bathroom or cuss like a salior on a parkbench in the middle of the day with strangers around, that's pretty vulgar.... do any of the same things in the prvacy of your own home, its not a big deal. The only REAL rub is if kids are using bad language amongst themselves and one (or more) are truely offended by that type of language. Then the discussion is about standing up for yourself and letting others KNOW you personally don't take to such talk and ask them to refrain from it in your presence. But that's not about doing it or not doing it because it is "bad", because one guy who is not as cool as the rest will run and tell an adult, or because "real men don't cuss". That's a discussion about standing up for personal principles, kid to kid or man to man and either holding the other person accountable, or removing yourself from a situation that you personally find offensive.

I've never asked for reimbursement for driving to a campout / scout function, as I figure I would most likely be attending myself anyways, if I take more than just me and the son - then good, others get to come along. One thing I do, however, is keep a small notebook in my glovebox and write down EVERY scout related trip I take (to the scout shop, to the uniform exchange, to trainings, to campouts, etc....) Then those pages get copied at the end of the year to my accountant and I take them as a mileage tax write off (as I was never reimbursed for the cost incured) on my personal tax return. Start writing it down and deduct it - you'd be surprised how much it adds up. Not sure, but I think you can get a rate of $0.48 / mile now. Take that times 2000 miles in a year and I get nearly a $1000 write-off, thats worth the price of gas. That and running purchases through my personal credit card (i.e. foods / materials for unit functions), so that I may get the airline miles before being reimbursed are really the only "pay" I get for my hours of service to the unit. Like I stated before - you'd be surprised how much it adds up when you track the total miles driven for scout functions in a single year. High adventure or far away campout - yes, I'd say build travel expenses into the cost. I myself would feel funny asking a scout or parent to share the "gas money" when its something I would be driving myself and son to anyways with or without the additional unit members along for the ride. That being said - most of the time when I drive and another adult rides in my car (with several scouts), I seldom have to pay for a meal when we stop en route, as the "passenger" usually offers to buy me lunch as a token way of showing appreciation for my driving for the event

A game that worked GREAT with my Den as Tigers (and for any age) - I used popcicle sticks and wrote one line each of the Promise and the Law of the Pack per stick. Make about 5 to 10 sets. Then make a few random lines or funny lines on other sticks (i.e. A scout is goofy / A scout is always quiet). Then our opening Den game was a "pick up sticks" game. Throw the sticks in a pile on the floor and whoever gets the Promise and Law in the right order 1st wins. Better yet, group the scouts into pairs or 3-somes and pretty soon the guys that know it will be TEACHING it to the ones that are unsure. I a few meetings - everyone will know it. Then you have teams of 4 do the promise, but each team member can only get one line and they have to line up in correct order to be the winning team. It turns the learning and repetition into a game, so they don't get bored and it feeds their competitive nature - plus they learn it and it sticks with them.

Good for them - always nice to see positive press. boomerscout - I hope your comment was "tounge in cheek". I don't care if they are in our out of uniform, so long as they are getting positive press as scouters. They looked sharp. BTW - when I was a scout, the only guys that wore anything besides blue jeans with their scout shirt was because their parents make enough $$ to justify buying the entire uniform. I was lucky to get a non-hand-me down scout shirt and was happy when I got one fresh off the rack. I've easily spent 3x the amount of unifroming my son (currently a Bear in cubs) than my folks were EVER able to spend on me my entire scouting career. Its all a matter of perspective.

Your issue isn't really with the ASM, its with the SM (or his / her lack of leadership on the issue). If the SM isn't going to stand up for his / herself and LEAD, then a vacuum of leadership is replaced by whoever is willing to step in (sounds like this ASM). First lesson learned in ROTC - "If you ever have to tell or remind someone that you are the person in charge, then you are not really in charge." The SM and CC need to have a friendly chat off line with the ASM, if he doesn't change his tune - then boot him. It would be nice to have the backing of the COR and as much of the committee as possible, but if the SM and CC are on the same page, then you can move forward. If the SM and CC don't agree - then you have a much larger issue in your unit. If you are NOT the SM or the CC - then this issue is really none of your concern, other than to let the SM and CC know you will support them fully if they decide to address the issue.