DeanRx

We must be in the pilot program in SD then. I have been specifically told at numerous training sessions, round tables, and by our DE, that a local tour permit MUST be signed by someone who is WELOT trained or the council office will reject the tour permit (thus nixing the den camping trip). As for my comment about "if then den camp as a wolf, whats left for Boy Scouts...: - I understand. As a CM, I too am often tired of hearing about things they can't do now, but will be able to do once they are 14 y/o and in Boy Scouts. However, I do think there is some merit to the statement that if they do everything their 1st couple seasons, then by Web II you have a hard time getting them to stick around. We need to provide program at the unit level that is a progression, so that each year the scout is exposed to new things and challenges, so that they do not become bored with the repetition. There should be things a Web can do that a Tiger, Wolf, or Bear cannot - both developmentally and as a matter of maturing through the ranks. my 2cents worth. Dean

As others have stated - A pack campout should be a sactioned unit event, planned by the unit (Pack) committee, and have oversight from a minimum of ONE Baloo trained adult. Also, you should have a minimum of 2 YPG trained adults along on the campout. Family camping is just as it sounds - everyone in the family is invited. Den camping is reserved for Webelos only. Even then, a minimum of ONE adult (on the tour permit) must be WELOT trained for the den to camp as a den. Same YPG rules apply. Again, as others have stated, the camping portion in scouting (especially in cubs) - is a progression. If they den camp as a wolf, what's left until they are in a Boy Scout unit? We have a group of families within our pack that like to camp. We do our own camping trips in which we do things that we want to do (some of which are not allowed per G2SS for scouts our son' age). These are NOT pack functions (even though a majority of the pack committee might be on the trip), and they are not published to, nor is the entire pack invited. We do not have to worry about YPG, or any other training or guideline except us being responsible for our own kid(s). We do sometimes do things or work on things that can count towards rank achievements for the scouts that happen to be camping with this group of families... but its not designed around the socuting "program" per se. The BIG difference is - we understand and KNOW that our extraciricular (if yo want to call it that) camping trips are not covered in anyway by BSA insurance. The reason for the guidelines and regs on YPG, BALOO, and "you can't camp as a den until Webelos, and even then you must have a WELOT trained leader" - is that BSA has set this policy to mitigate risk on its umbrella insurance policy. Its safety and insurance, simple as that. So - you want to have a camping club and those invited to be in the club just 'happen' to all be in the same den within your pack? Fine, you can do that. You just can NOT associate the trip with the unit or BSA in anyway. And you dang well better not be spending unit funds to supply you're side tip. If you just happen to work on a few rank advancement things while camping, then its no different than a scout working on them on their own when camping with just their family. I know it sees like splitting hairs, but BSA has its reasons for the policy and it lies with liability, insurance, and premiums.

My son and I (plus one other dad and his son) attended in San Diego the second week it was open (one week after the debut in the Rose Parade in Pasedena). FWIW - if its close by you, it'd be a good day trip. If you are going to have to drive more than 1 hr to get there, don't bother. Maybe as it progesses andmakes mroe stops, they will add to the exhibits, but I thought for the level of hype, it was pretty sparse at best. 1) The ropes course was a JOKE. Its all contained in 10ft by 6ft trailer that is rigged to jack up in the air (think fun house at the local county fair type stuff) and the scouts are "hooked in" the whole way and get less than 6 ft off the ground the whole time. Most of the trouble was with the scout having to stop and 'pull' their meat hook trolley line up to them because it would get stuck in the track and the safety device would actually stop scouts from being able to move forward. If its a large city venue - BSA needs about 3 more of these contraptions in order to keep the lines moving. We waited for 20 minutes and had made it less than 1/4 way through the line before our boys decided to go do something else.... I've seen faster lines at the airport when a security breach occured. 2) Same issue with the penny smasher machine... ONE, yes count it ONE machine with a hand crank for how many scouts? My son has a smashed penny collection and this would have been a very cool one to have, but I timed a few in the line as we walked in and it was moving at a rate of about 1 scout per 2.5 minutes... there were a minimum of 50 scouts in line at any one time... you do the math. The fact that folks were willing to stand in a line for nearly 2 hours for a smashed penny was astonishing to me. GOOD NEWS - I spoke w/ one of the Adventure Base workers and they said BSA is supposed to be getting a couple more of these on line soon... so maybe the wait time will be better when they get to your neck of the woods. 3) The trailer history exhibit was actually pretty cool and had some very good interactions in it. Only issue I saw was one worker who was asking scouts not to touch the rubber "scat" replicas on the wall in one exhibit becuase, "It has to last all year across the country". That may be so, but why the hell was it a "hands on" exhibit if you expect scouts not to touch it? Lines were at least managed well in this area. 4) The DOME movie was pretty cool, had it set up like a campsite inside, down to the astro-turf grass, faux fire and logs / campstools to sit on. The movie was well made, but it was geared towards recruitment. I would have liked to see a little more emphasis on what you can actually DO at some of the High Adventure bases. It could've marketed to both existing scouts and those that didn't know much about scouting. But it was really only for those who were not already scouts. 5) The scout shop tent was well appointed and had a few "you can only get them at Adventure Base 100" items. Don't know if that will be true, or if you can only get them at the travelling show until its over next FEB, and then any leftovers will be in the online shop? I picked up a couple books, one is a hardbound on the extensive paintings of Norman Rockwell for BSA. Not bad at $28, but my one splurge on BSA 100 years memoribilia that I wanted to have. Overall, it was fun enough. I think its a great recruiting tool, but seasoned scouters might find it only tells them things about BSA that they already know or have done. The traveling museum was pretty darn cool and kinda makes me want to plan my family vacation on a route that would include a stop in Irving, so we could hit the real thing. If they work the bugs out of the long lines (I mean it made Disneyland look like it has short waits) - it would be worth a daytrip to see. Hopefully, the crowd control / line movement was a 1st stop hiccup that will improve with time. I'll be back in the midwest over the summer, so we might catch up to it and go see it in a less populated area to find out if the expirience is the same. Would like to get Jr that smashed penny... Worth the time if its close - I wouldn't make a special pilgramage just to say you're seen it.

"I guess it comes down to the principle of it: he's not my son. It's not my job to be his dad when he has a completely capable dad and mom too." No - your right, its not you job to be his dad. But, I would argue the part of your statement that he has a completely capable dad and mom too. They may be physically capable, but may not know any better. Or they may be capable, but unwilling. If they are unwilling to engage in their son's activities and it is easy for you to fill that void (and not a deal breaking financial burden to you), then WHY not take on this role? Its your sister's kid, right? If it really bothers you, have a talk with her about it. If, on the other hand, your son and he get along well... then continue what you are doing. You are doing right by both your son and your nephew and both kids wll grow up to be better men because of your actions. I know it must be hard, but your frustration should be with your sister and B-I-L, not the kid. Heck, if they don't want to do it and they're willing to agree to it - set up an itemized bill and have them pay you a monthly stipend for his "scouting stuff". Then revel in the fact that as this kid matures to a young adult, he'll probably appreciate you more than he does his own parents for the memories of his youth. Dean

I'd echo the claim on the locking blade. Whish they had that feature when I was a lad. Carbon steel blade is a good choice too. I'd say an entry level leatherman or gerber makes a fine choice. One main blade, maybe a smaller blade, small saw, and pliers are very nice. One or two more items and that's enough flash to be "cool" without being cumbersome to the kid's hands. One guide I was taught long ago (don't remember the source) stated that the closed knife should fit comfortably in the youth's palm and when they close their fingers around it, it shoudl be mostly covered by their fingers. Anything that sticks out past the sides of their palm or if its diameter is too large for them to close their hand around, is likely too much knife for them to safely control. That's aways been a good guide for me.

So, I'm interested to hear... we talk a lot about MB, belt loop and Eagle mills and how the sole focus on advancement demeans the overall value of scouting. I'd tend to agree with such a statement. However, let me ask this - What ARE the other main methods of scouting? Because, if I was to ask most parents in my pack, I'm pretty sure advancement is the only one they could name. Secondly, what does your council and national do to promote the other methods of scouting at least equally with advancement? Not to taint the responses, but it does seem national and councils tend to put a fair amount of time into promoting advancement. Annual honor unit citations are based on percentage advanced. Never seen a unit ribbon awarded for 90% or better participation in a campout. Adult leader knots at the den and unit levels are based in part on percent of unit that advances. Eagle is talked of (and mostly rightly so) with so much reverence in BSA circles that it makes it seem advancement IS the only method. No VIP tent at the big scout-o-rama jambo for "Life scout for life" rank, but there is usually a hospitality tent for the Eagle alumni. So what are the other methods? What do we do to promote these methods, so they are on par with advancement?

CAMPMOR.COM !!! I have bought several items online from them and its high quality gear for very low prices. Got an internal frame Kelty pack last season's closeout - REI= $250, Sports Chalet= $210 .... Campmor= $185. They have very good buyer feedback and I've never had a problem with shipping or returns. On the more specific items, look at your local sporting goods store (Cabela's / Bass Pro / etc...) find what you want and then price shop it at Campmor.com. You will likely save almost 25% across the board. This is especially true for tents, bags, and packs. Most other stuff can be had on the cheap from Target or Wal-Mart. The only other thing I spent big money on is the GPS and the "spork-a-knife" lexan packpaking all-in-one spoon, folk, knife for the mess kits. They can cost $6-$8 a piece, but I'd never go camping without one. Best of luck - sorry you're in such a pickle with the gear. Dean

I've lost 3 scouts from our pack this year because parents don't want to be involved with their kids. I had one father actually state, "He's just going to do basketball this winter. I can just drop him off at practice, run an errand, and pick him up when its over." Dad of the year material. I know at least 5 other cubs in our pack that are there with their fathers only because the WIFE makes the dad come to scout functions. They'll never make it out of cubbies. We have a couple families (not single parent) that the mom comes on family campouts and dad stays home. Not that he's working, he just doesn't like camping / outdoors, so mom does it instead. For some parents, and even more fathers their kids are not their priority in life. Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I love getting to do things with the kids (not just mine, but all the kids). Maybe its because my father took the time to do it with me, but it seems the way it shoud be. Maybe I'm really just an inmature kid myself. Far too many parents (especially fathers) want to bring home the paycheck, buy the kid whatever new video game he wants, and then be done with him. Its really a sad thing. Divorce is HUGE. I know of 4 families (including a former cubmaster) that saw the premature end to the son's scouting career when the parents split up. Such a selfish way to try and deal with one's problems (but I won't jump on that soapbox right now...) As for the PWD thing... get a C-clamp and a wood rasp for christ sake! That and some sanding paper will cost you all of $10 at Home Depot, maybe another $5 for the paint at the hobby shop. Worst thing the kid can do to hurt themself is scrape their knuckles or get sawdust in their eye. The kids doesn't need to use power tools to make his car (its cool if you do and can teach him a little about them - espicially about safety), but it can be done without. Your B-I-L would flip if he saw the time my son wants to put into his car. We spent 3 hours on Saturday just deburing and polishing axles (he did a total of 8 from two sets). Then my son sits at the kitchen table with my dial calipers and matches the 4 best out of the 8 that he wants to use on the car... (my adult car) gets the rejects for my tires. I've literally had to tell him it was time to stop and go to bed 3 nights this week because the only thing he wants to do after homework and a quick bite is work on that car. I have no more important thing to do than help him with the car. The day will come soon enough when he wants to pretend that he doesn't know who I am. Until then, I'm taking all these moments I can get.

I think you need to take a balanced approach to the LNT training. Yes - we should stay on trails. But its different to hop on rocks than it is to bust brush trough a field and trample the grass. You are not going to do any lasting damage to the rocks, the meadow will take longer to recover. Pick your battles - I had a dad at a campout scold a scout (in front of others) for smacking a tree trunk with a stick because it "might tear off the bark and hurt the tree". Well yes it might, but the stick the kid was using was already on the ground, he didn't break it off a live tree. The tree he was hitting was a very large oak with an almost 3ft diameter trunk. I bet the lad could have hit that thing for a week and never caused any damage. He wasn't carving his name into it. That tree was over 100 years old and it'll be there long after we all die (unless someone with a saw gets to it). LNT is a very good thing. But, one must temper it with allowing kids to engage nature so that they learn to respect it. I've read a little about John Muir and his youth. As a kid he was allowed (if not encouraged) to shoot at seaguls with his sling-shot when on the beach near his home!! He was interacting with nature and this led him to respect it. Kids need some tactile interaction, or the reverence and respect is hard to come by. Its hard to have deep felings for the things you keep locked up behind glass and out of reach with a "do not touch" sign on them. LNT is meant to minimize impact, not to sterilize the expirience to the point that the backcountry becomes the same as looking at artifacts in a museum. When possible and appropriate, kids should touch the trees and bushes and splash in the water. If you happen to step on a creek bank and it caves in a little, you are really just hastening the natural errosion that was taking place. You should not go along the whole bank, kicking it into the riverbed. But, I would not loose much sleep over a true 'accident'. Temperance and prudence with LNT is a good thing. If your tent mats down the grass, it'll come back. Just don't dig the drainage trench. One thing we do as a unit is a final police call of the camp once everything is packed up. No one leaves until the police call is finished. Scouts are amazed at how much garbage they find when you sweep the campgrounds. Usually,we're just 5 ft underway and the adult get asked "Do we have to pick up the stuff that was here when we got here?" - YUP, that's someone else's candywrapper, but you get the credit for picking it up. One item I don't bend on in LNT - leave it better than you found it. This makes up for the smashed grass and a few snapped branches that might have occured during the stay.

I don't think its telling lies... It is often a way of empathizing with the person or situation you have to correct... It is also a way of saying, "I don't know why we have this rule / regulation, but I'm going to follow / enforce it because I get paid to follow my higher up's policy." I've often had this discussion with a coworker or someone I manage... to me the internal question goes like this: 1) It is illegal or immoral? If no, then why do I not want to do it? 2) Is it really THAT big of a deal to do it the way the policy is written? 3) How hard would it be to get the policy changed / updated? 4) Is it an issue that is really worth going to the mat about? 5) Do I not like this rule / policy just because I perceive it to make more work for me? 6) Did my last paycheck bounce? If not, and the answer to #1 is "no" - then I really have no excuse not to do it the way I'm being asked to do it. While in general, I think rules are rules - the enforcement (or calling somene out) should be for a "higher" purpose (i.e. safety, litigation mitigation, CYA, or increased profits). Enforcement should not be just because one likes to be self-righteous over someone else. Two quotes come to mind on this issue and I seem to use them more and more frequently as my sons get older: First one - "Intergrity is doing what you are supposed to do, even when no one is watching" Second one - "Good LEADERSHIP is the difference between being the Boss and being just plain bossy"

Thanks for the responses. I figured we could work it like that. The tenting situation is probably not a big deal, because we usually have a couple "scout's only" tents on our pack family campouts... They are usually big family sized tents and the Tigers/Wolves/Bears in one and the other with Bears/Webelos in it. Usually about 8-10 boys racked out in a given tent. Then we just have a couple adults sleep on cots or the ground about 5 ft outside the door so that if any scouts have an issue in the middle of the night, they can contact the adults outside the door for help. I'll look into the POwer of Attorney - we have a couple lawyers on our committee so hopefully they can help determine if its needed over and about a permission slip for the lad. Mom is pretty hardy, but I doubt she wants totry and brave it with a 1 y/o in tow when she has two cubs in the pack. That would be alot for one parent to take care of... a baby, plus two cub campers. Plus, I'm not sure mom is even the camping type. Again - thanks for the advice, we'll see what we can do to accomodate these guys. Dean

I have a few (3 or 4) cubs in our pack that are very active and their families contribute to "make the pack go" as much as possible. The issue I am running into - these boys have fathers who are active duty military- deployed on ship for 6 months at a time. They are stationed here, thus mom has very little to no extended family in the area (no grandpas, uncles, etc close by). Scouts also have very young siblings (i.e. less than 2 years old) and mom doesn't feel comfortable "family camping" with baby in tow. Since ALL cub camping (except for Webelos) is supposed to be family camping - what if anything can the pack leadership do to facilite these boys being able to attend our pack campouts? Can another adult be given the responsibility as the "adult partner" for a non-familiar scout? Example - close friends of this family has both mom and dad involved in the pack. Is it permissible to have "mom" be the adult for the military scout's on a pack campout? I understand fully the G2SS and that these boys would have to agree up front to sleep in a "scout's olny" tent and not be able to sleep with the adult "neighbor". Has anyone else ran into this issue and how did you overcome it? I want to make sure we are in line with BSA policy, but also want to afford these few scouts the opportunity to camp with the pack if they so wish. Thanks in advance for your words of wisdom. Dean (This message has been edited by DeanRx)

You see all those trophies behind him? He's probably smuggling contraband PWD parts in from a machine shop somewhere in the middle east! Thats too bad - funny how the article describes passengers just mispelling their names on reservations to avoid being a blip on the list... our feds at its best I guess.

I guess the world is colored by the lens' one sees it through. I live in southern California in a council that has been bitterly embattled with the gay community for well over 20 years now. We have lost use of certain public lands, certain public camping areas, and most certainly members over this debate. We have lost the ability to upgrade and improve existing facilities because they reside inside a public park and the opposition has successfully filed injuctions to prevent any public funds to be used to improve said grounds because the public funds would be going to an organization that discriminates. And you can't use private funds to build / add on in public lands. So, a council office area and campground that began as a great collaboration between the city and county of S.D. and the BSA is now in a stalemate stance with no way to improve facilities. BTW - the girl scout's offices next door - just underwent a multimillion dollar renovation in the past two years - frankly BSA looks like crap sitting next to them at the north end of Balboa Park. I shudder to think about how much funding that could go towards camp upkeep / upgrades, new locations, etc, has been spent in that amount of time in litigation fees to defend the council and national BSA. I live in a state where Prop 8 pushed the issue into the national spotlight to the point that our state prop ballot measure eclipsed every other race on the national scene with the exception of the presidental candidates in the last national election. Its back in court headed most likely to the US supreme court and will more than likely be on the ballot again in the next election. I serve in a council and unit that you could hear the hushed conversations of adults regarding who's vehicle in the parking lot at meetings did or did NOT have a pro or anti prop 8 sticker on it and if they were anti-prop 8 (which meant pro-gay marriage) and the discussions of if anything should be said or done because they were scouters. I KNOW its an issue for some folks, because I've had discussions with families after they've joined regarding how BSA is a "Christian modelled" organization (even though it really isn't - when you have a majority of the CO's coming from the LDS, the Roman Catholics, and other prodestant churches) it LOOKS that way to folks. The catch 22 is that because of BSA national policy, these CO's are just about the only organizations that will charter a unit in our state anymore. I know of two different groups that in the past year have approached both the Kiwiani's and VFW about being CO's for new units. Neither want to touch BSA with a 10 foot poll. Far more potential for local negative press than either organization wants to encounter. I know of units that have ran into public school use permit issues because of TWO of th G's (gays and girls). Some cannot even get promotional materials and flyers regarding roundups sent home with the K-1-2 grdae kids because of this! If we can't let families know we are here, we certainly will have a hard time increasing numbers. So, yes, I guess we disagree. When BSA national policy hinders a unit's ability to market to BSA's target audience, when it continously diverts funds to litigation that could be used to remodel camps or gets BSA into positions where it legally cannot upkeep its existing facilitie, when it causes other civic organizations to think twice about their involvement with BSA units, then I think it IS the 800 pound gorrilla in the room. If BSA wants to remain relevant, then they need to be able to market effectively and cheaply (the easiest way is parents talking to other parents - but you need to have access to the school grounds). Youth sports leagues don't have this issue, because they just don't make it an issue. A kid can be gay, atheist, girl / boy - if they sign up, they play and hopefully learn some fundamentals, get exercise, and learn a thing or two about sportsmanship and teamwork along the way. If BSA want to remain relevant, they need to be able to update facilities (both at council offices and campgrounds) without legal battles. They need to be able to work with other civic organizations in the local community. All those things are hindered by the current national policy regarding the 3G's. You can't move the organization forward without recruitment, retention, upkeep and civic collaboration. Like I said - maybe I just see it through a different colored set of glasses. Add to that the fact that the generation that is currently scouts and will be adult leaders in the next 20 years are more open to mixed sex organizations, more open to "alternate" sexual orientations, and more open towards variations of religions - BSA either changes or where do the next generation of leaders come from? As I have gotten older, my own personal views on the 3G's have softened from what they were (or what I was taught) as a youth. I hardly think a 12 y/o that is brought up in a "live and let live" type of world is going to be willing to take a hardline stance at age 32. He'll just take his kids camping on their own instead, instilling his own belief system, having their own adventures and discoveries. I half laugh at the idea because I can remember my own father and a couple of adult leaders when I was a youth having a discussion on a campout regarding the "protestant" kid who joined our unit chartered to the Knights of Columbus. I also vividly remember the first hispanic and first black kids to join our troop in the midwest and the hand-wringing hushed discussions and worry it caused among the adult leadership. I also recall most of the scouts thinking it was no big deal when Joe and Juan joined the troop. I wonder if my son will have the same memories regarding the great 3G debate when he was a scout? The adults all worked up about it, and the scouts wonderring, "What's the big deal?"

Twocub.... Tap out Morse code to their buddies? Why wouldn't they just text message them from the IPhone? - Duuuuh

Everyone would spend there spare time on internet message boards splitting hairs on the finer points of G2SS and YPG I understand your reasoning (especially when dealing with your trouble employees), but I'm glad not everyone grew up a scout. Because, then scouts wouldn't be special. They wouldn't hold a place of honor in society (yes we do, even if its one that gets poked fun at "you're such a Boy Scout"). As my 9y/o bear so correctly put it after coming home from a school day in which his well meaning, but misguided teacher told him "everyone's a winner", after a class game... He stated, "Dad, if everyone is a winner and everyone is special, then doesn't that mean that nobody is special?, they're just all the same?" BINGO! son... in 3rd grade everyone's a winner... In real life - they keep score whether you want to belive it or not.

As far as WHO to poll? Poll the youth not in the program. How do you get to these youth? I don't know. (technology, facebook, twitter, youtube, IPhone app) BSA can shy away from tech toys in the program, but its BSA's best bet to gather data and MARKET to its target audience. What do we ask? Do you want to have fun? What is fun to you? BSA vs sports - Sports wins almost every time, why? We can ask this question, but my gut reaction is twofold: 1) People in the US (especially pre-teen and teen boys) are uber competitive. Sports seperates the winners from the loosers in real time. 2) No one is getting a multi-million dollar contract from Nike (or even North Face for that matter) for being a professional scouter. You hit, throw or carry a ball for a living and you've got the in-road to that Nike contract. We should be asking parents WHAT life skills they want to see the porgram teach. If its tolerance, openness, and an attitude of "I don't agree with A,B, or C but I want to respect other's right to live that way..." - well then the Three G's pretty much take care of themselves. If the life skills wanted are dedication to an ideal, even if unpopular with some segments of the population, then BSA knows to stand its ground. I know the OP asked not to dwell on this aspect, but I truely believe the 3G's are the often unspoken of 800 pound gorilla in the room for the BSA. How BSA as an organization chooses to address (or not address) the 3G's in the next 5 to 10 years will determine its success or failure as an organization. As others have posted, I'm not sure BSA moves forward in any means on the 3G's without first addressing the way the organization is intertwined with CO's. It really comes down to: Does BSA want to stand on its "moral highground" and go for quality over quantity, or does it want to bend to societal pressures in order to remove the stigma of being viewed by some on the outside as a prejudiced organization? If outdoors vs urban scouting was the hallmark of BSA change in the 60's and 70's - then the 3G's are its debate du jour for the 100th anniversary. Its just a matter of HOW BSA decides to act and whether national sides with those who take a fundamental stance on these issues or those that see a more secular approach to the same issues.

ECOH in jeans .... egads !!! say it ain't so... What if the lad is from a single parent family, no parental involvement, only has a shirt because it was a hand-me-down, but has been active in the Troop and met all the requirements? "No son, you need to do an Eagle Project AND save up enough money to bow at the alter of the Scout Shop cash register before we can feel good about bestowing the lofty rank of Eagle upon you. Go forth and fill the BSA coffers so that you might look the part of an Eagle." As a father that has the means to buy every scout shirt and doo-dad my cub wants, but as a scout had only one 'new' shirt my scout career, never had pants and had a hand me down sash and cap - comments about a scout being in the 'correct' pants vs blue-jeans seem to really rub me the wrong way. If we concentrate more on what we put INTO the scout than whats ON the scout, everyone will be better off.

Look its his place to decide. I don't like it, but I fought so that folks can have the right to sit if they so choose. I had a father of a scout tell me that he wouldn't stand or salute the flag as he was a Canadian citizen and thus didn't feel right about pledging to a "foriegn" flag. Never mind the fact that this father has no trouble LIVING in this fine land, working for a US company, and getting PAID with US currency on a continuous basis. It pisses me off, but its his right to twist or justify his situation any way he feels is just. I just told him, "I can respect your position so long as you can be respectful and not draw attention away from the flag and the flag ceremony when everyone else is standing and reciting the pledge." he's cool with that. If he was not - I (as CM) would get with the committee and kindly ask this gentleman not to attend unit events any longer. His kid is registered in BSA - he is not. There is nothing that states I must allow him to participate if he is distruptive or otherwise attempts to undermine the program we as a unit are trying to provide. As long as he's cool, I'm cool. If he makes an issue out of it - damn straight I'll make an issue out of it. I think that goes for a LOT of individual freedoms both within BSA and outside of it. You're not a Christian, but your kid is in a unit sponsored by a Christian Church - then don't be offended when there is a Christian invocation at the start of a B&G banquet or a Eagle CoH. If it means that much to you - then go start your own unit outside the COR. When I visited Budist shrines in Thialand, I didn't argue with the request to only wear long pants into the shrine (even though I'm not of that religion, and it was about 105 degrees and over 85% humidity - long pants were the last thing I wanted on at the moment). I took that this is their request, their religion, their culture, so if I wanted to be allowed to participate, I play by their "rules". Not quite sure WHY so many adults have a hard time with this idea. But, as I stated earlier, in the U.S.A. one tries to respect the difference of opinion, even when a majority thinks said opinion is B.S. Too bad this one individual is so short-sighted as to not see the irony of their demand to be accomodated and how their need to not be "offended" might actually cause others to be offended. Then again, many adults (or people in general) struggle with the idea that someone else's (or in this case the majority's) needs / wants / wishes are just as important as their own. Bottom line - the rights of the individual does not trump the rights of the majority (more adults than the kids in BSA need to learn this ideal). I'll respect your right to sit through the pledge so long as you respect the rights of 99% of the unit that wishes to stand, saulte, and pledge. You mess with the majority's rights, then expect the majority to mess with your rights. Its that simple. When in Rome, or if you don't like it - get out of Rome....

My only question is, "Why mothball them again after 2010?". If they can have a video game belt loop for the cubs, then tracking / pathfinding, whatever PC updated verb you need to use to not offend... is certainly a useful tool. It can be used to track game, look for clues (i.e. crime solving adventure / learn about forensics), or to send signals across a valley. The Navy still uses (or at least keeps people proficient) in several types of signaling. Tracking is useful in helping find lost hikers or a lost child - its more about noticing changes to the natural environment that tells you something or somebody was there and which way they were heading, than it is about "stalking". Pathfinding probably lost favor with the hyper-vigilance of leave no trace. No need for pathfinding skills if you're never allowed to walk "off trail" in a natural area. But if you're lost or have an emergency and need to "bust brush" to get to a road or other man-made feature for rescue, then its a very good skill to have. As for carpentry - I'm not sure WHY this was ever done away with? Making something useful with your own hands has got to be one of the most satisfying things a human can do. Was this wrapped into woodworking at some point and that is why it is "retired" now?

Does anyone know of a way to let a moderator know about issues on these forums? Once again, I find we have a few folks that don't seem to know how to disagree politely with others. I have gained a great deal of knowledge from these boards. However, I have also taken self-imposed breaks from them, most often due to the postings of a select few people. These boards should be a place to exchange ideas (even contradictory ones), but not a place to belittle or nit-pick others (especially those who are novices coming to seek guidance). When you do disagree, it can be done in a polite manner. This is not only based on responses directed at me personally, but at a good number of newbies on the pages. I know the issue has been brought up before, but we really need to have a level of decorum here that allows one to have an opposing viewpoint. Some folks just seem to use a condesending tone when addressing other poster's messages, just for the amusement factor. What these posters need to realize is that this type of behavoir (aside from being very unscoutlike) does NOT encourage the free flow of ideas, but rather serves to stiffle and cause people to hesitate to post. Its akin to having a bully in your troop that the adult leaders do nothing about! If we wouldn't tolerate such acts within our units, WHY do we tolerate it on these boards? Harsh postings directed at the person or off-topic does nothing to strengthen this forum and in fact detracts from what I believe the intent of these pages are trying to accomplish. We should try to remember that if you drive everyone away with bad rhetoric, soon you will have no one left to aim the condesending attitude towards. Sorry for the soapbox, but it really bothers me when I see seasoned posters treat newbies with such distain that they are likely to leave the virtual campfire and never return.

If the question is: "Why would national get into the T-shirt Business?" The answer is: Because its a revenue opportunity they are missing out on. Not sure, but I thought BSA got a liscensing fee for authorized vendors anyways for BSA logo'd products. That's why you can't just go to your local T-shirt guy that does the Little League and soccer shirts and have him rip out a bunch of unit shirts with BSA logos on them... he's got to pay the franchise fee and be an authorized vendor. A T-shirt per rank sounds bad when you're the one buying, but it sounds like a GREAT idea if you're the one selling I wish they'd leave well enough alone. Too many uniform changes as it is. The dress uniform is not the best, but it serves its purpose for more formal occasions. If they want kids to wear it all the time at camp, then BSA needs to make MAJOR improvements not the least of which is cargo pockets and their locations. BSA needs to take a page from the military (yup, learn from the supply gods) - and have a couple different dress unifrom styles (one of heavier material for cooler climate use and one more lightweight made of performance rip-stop material for hot summer camp and rough use). Then have a service / duty uniform (i.e. pants and performance T-shirt), for dirty jobs like service projects that will get you dirty / muddy / etc... The idea that one uniform can do it all is crazy. That's why many units go with jeans and a unit T-shirt for service projects. Mom and Dad don't want Jr to ruin $80 to $100 worth of BSA Class A uniform while he's helping pick up litter out of the local creek bed.

Ev and BrentAllen- I am not suggesting the council do nothing and yes, by the write-up in the article it sounds like she was caught in the act. However, I do find it disturbing that the council would swoop in and make an on-the-record statement to the media regarding the case before the DA has even filed charges in the matter !! What if the "victim's" parents have a personal grudge with this person and it comes out in a week that the entire incident was a fabricated story? Stranger stuff has happened. Anyone remember Balloon-boy a few weeks ago? As a general rule, first reports are usually skecthy at best. To base a response to the media on limited information is knee-jerk. Its doubtful this is the case, but the local council could look pretty bad for jumping the gun in their attempt to look tough. Thought BSA had lawyers for handling these types of situations. I'm assuming the council SE vetted this with the legal deptartment first, but from the timing and tone it seems like it was not reviewed prior to release. I've never done anything inappropriate, I've never had an accusation or known someone who has, hope it never does happen, and try my best not to put myself into situations where my actions with youth could ever be questioned. But, God forbid, I was ever in such a pickle - I would hope the council would withhold judgement long enough for the authorities to complete an investigation BEFORE they make such a statement to the press. Seems to me, the council's need to appear hard-line on the issue trumps all, including crucifying a volunteer's reputation in the media prior to an investigation being completed. Is this really the level of parinoia we are now operating in? All that needs to be done is an accusation of inappropriate behavoir and its "grab the pitchforks and torches.... the which hunt is on!!". To me its one thing to to revoke membership pending the outcome of an investigation internally. Its an entirely different matter to be making such statements as a press release to the media. This council needs to be aware WHY organizations and companies state, "We are cooperating fully with the investigation and this volunteer has been removed from any role with youth until the investigation is complete... other than that we have no comment on an ongoing investigation." They might as well have stated, "We've kicked this bad egg out and we think she's guilty as sin..." Their statement does nothing to protect youth and only adds fuel to an extremely charged emotional fire.

Yes, it was my statement that requiring memorization is placing an addition to the requirement - and I stand by that statement. Don't be quick to dismiss the handbook's authors intent when choosing the words "learn and say". These standards have been developed over 100 years with input from child educators and child psychologists and have been revamped over time. There is very little (if anything) in any BSA handbook that hasn't undergone years of critique from multiple sources. If BSA's intention was for a cub to 'recite from memory', the handbook would say "recite from memory". The intent is to LEARN the MEANING of the words and be able to say and understand what they are saying. To understand what they are pledging themselves to. There are times when reciting from memory is part of the requirement, as in requirement #7 for the Tenderfoot rank in Boy Scouts (BSA Scout Handbook, 12th ed.), "Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan (pages 22-27). Someone out there correct me if I'm wrong, but the requirement of "repeat from memory...." doesn't appear anywhere in the cub handbooks. The recite part only comes into play once the scout it in Boy Scouts and appears in the requirements for Tenderfoot. As I stated in the previous post, I would (and do) encourage memorizing it. But, I would stop short of requiring a cub to recite it from memory as a condition of awarding him rank. BSA is extremely clear on the concept of WHO is responsible for signing off on a requirement for the ranks of Bobcat, Tiger, Wolf and Bear. It is the Akela as defined in the given rank's handbook. The Akela is the adult in the child's life. Like I said - if Johnny's mother, father, aunt, grandpa, etc... shows up at the den meeting, states that Johnny has completed x,y and z and they are willing to sign off on it - then the DL and all other unit leaders MUST take that at face value. It doesn't stop you from having a heart to heart offline with the adult to clarify what the expectations are. But, it does stop you from quizing Johnny to find out if the Akela is being truthful. The exception to this is in the Web I and Web II years when the Akela and the DL have shared responsibility for signing off on rank advancement achievements. This means as a DL you are not allowed to quiz, test, retest, or question the achievement once the adult Akela has signed off on it. Your job is to record, track and report to the advancement folks at the unit level. I would agree that the DL has the ability and responsibility to set the expectations in their den and communicate these with both the scouts and the parents / adults. But, the DL cannot ADD to the requirements. The DL can also (as part of their meeting) have the scouts take turns reciting each line of the promise or Law of the Pack. They can, as a skit or presentation, have their den recite these things for the entire pack at a pack meeting. They can play any type of game they want in a meeting to help scouts remember the words and commit them to memory. What they should not (and per BSA guidance can not) do, is make a scout recite from memory as a condition of awarding the rank whether in front of the pack, in front of the den, in front of the DL, or even in front of the kid's parents. Its pretty black and white in the handbook. The standard is "Do their best" = achievement passed. The person(s) who get to define "Do their best" is the parent / adult / Akela, not the DL or anyone else in a leadership role within the unit.

Is this a rhetorical question, or do you really want folks to answer HOW they bring folks in to their units? Our council web-site has a very prominent link from the main page on how to join. I believe it takes in some elementary quesitons (name, location /part of town, age of kid interested, e-mail and contact phone) and then forwards that to the correct DE based on zip code and phone number provided. The DE's then make contact and provide prospective scout's with names / numbers of units in their area to check out. Our District Web site has a similar function, but I think it just redirects to the council site. Our Pack Web site has contact info for myself (CM), and the CC. We've hd two scouts that I know of join in the past year by doing a google search for "cub scouts in ". Because our web site is linked via a yahoo group, the google search pushed them to our unit's site, they called up the CC, got invited to the next meeting and joined up. I've also made some simple (at home) business cards with our units info and contact names / numners on it. I keep a few with me and hand them out anytime I'm in public in a scouting role and talk with someone who might be interested.