DeanRx

The gun safety analogy is a poor point anyways... per BSA gun safety and G2SS, a scout must be in Boy Scouts before he shoots anything other than a recurve bow or an air-rifle (BB gun). My 9 y/o Webelos scout routinely goes shooting with me. He shoots .22-cal, shotgun, and recently got introduced to black powder. We ALWAYS follow prudent gun safety techniques. According to BSA, he can't touch black powder at a scouting function until he is 14 y/o or older. However, I'd take issue with the assertation that we are living an "unscout-like" existence because we CHOOSE to shoot these types of firearms at non-scout sanctioned outings. Just because BSA legal tells the organization that a boy must be x years old or at x rank level before they can do things at a BSA event (for safety and more often liability reasons), doesn't trump my judgement as a father to determine what is and is not reasonable for my son in a non-scouting event. To claim we are acting unscout-like is poppycock! I'd agree that the "never swim without a buddy" rule is a great one and should appy to ALL swimming situations. However, that stems from the fact that it is a proven way to save lives, not the fact that it a BSA tenent in SSD or safety afloat. The gun safety vs BSA swim safety comparison just doesn't hold water - IMHO. DeanRx

Well - I just took the OWLs (used to be WeLot) course 3 weeks ago, it was indeed combined with the IOLS for Boy Scouts and had a combo of Web Leaders and BSA Troop leaders.... so I guess the combo IS being done. Maybe for once - our council is AHEAD of the curve on this one. It was a good course and very useful. Also, very good for the Web leaders to see / learn the Troop and Patrol methods of doing things so they can begin to cut the cords of adult ran campouts. It was a very good 2 days - 1 night course with focus on patrol method and AIMS tools. Watch one, do one, teach one... we used to say in the hospital teaching environment.

Her "offical" title on the roster is "committee member". Get her application, get the $15 and get teh background check done. Have her do YPG and Fast Start online and you're good to go. In the 'un-offical' title she can be 'events coordinator' or whatever hat you need her to wear at the time. Not to turn her off, but a popcorn kernel is a very good thing to have for fundraising, so is a B&G planner, and an all around "camp forms coordinator". Those are THREE very important jobs that usually do not overlap and could be done by ONE volunteer at different times of the program year (popcorn in the fall, B&G in Feb, and camp forms in the spring / summer). That's my 2-cents, don't EVER turn away help. How about ACM2, with an emphasis on taking over in a year or two? Really good leaders are ALWAYS looking for their replacement

Scoutfish- I can tell by your posts on here - you will do a great job! It doesn't matter how long you've been around, it matters if your heart is in it and what you WANT the unit to become. While I was involved in scouting as a youth (up to making LIfe for life), I had very little to no BSA expirience between being a youth in it and being and adult leader other than buying Scout-o-ramma tickets, popcorn, and my own camping adventures (non-scout type). Then, like you, I go to the round-up with my soon to be 1st grader. I came home (to the chagrin of my wife) as the new Tiger Cub DL. By the fall of my son's Wolf year, I had recruited my own DL replacement and took the staff as the new CM of the pack. Son will be starting Web I this year and I'm looking for my CM replacement. In that time, we've have a great time, the pack has grown from about 25 kids to just over 50 active members, and I still LOVE this scouting stuff. You'll do fine. Follow the rules (i.e. provide a safe program), have fun (provide an entertaining program), put the outing in scouting (provide program that gets the kids outside) and recruit people to help. The rest is easy. If you have a good CC, then the rest is a piece of cake. Remember, its about the kids, its for the kids. Your job IS the kids. Refrain from becoming the judge in all the petty adult decission stuff that always comes up with groups of adults. Your job is not the adults, its the kids. If anyone tries to drag you into the fray, politely refuse and focus on YOUR JOB. You'll be great at it Have fun.

Scoutfish- I would tend to agree. Its not just the idea of 'boredom', but the fact that unrestricted free-play or ANY amount of unscheduled time is looked upon in our society as a WASTE of your potential. That's a very sad statement on our current value of a human - you are only worth what you can PRODUCE. But it is more true today than at any other time in history. I've been told we can't have 'free time' on campouts, because the boys will just end up hitting each other with stick swords and throwing dirt clods at each other. One parent's eyes about popped out of their head when I stated, "whats so worng with that?". The problem that I see with technology is that is has become the defacto babysitting service of both youth and adults in society. The fact that people hold up lines at banks and grocery stores because they are too busy texting to see its their turn at the counter. The fact we now have LAWS to tell people to hang up and drive. The kids that have to be plugged in because they know no other way to exist. To me this techno-blitz does three main things: 1) hampers and in some cases destroys one's ability to communicate with others on a human face-to-face level. 2) destroys creativity and imagination, because its all been created and imagined for you - all thats left is to expirience / download it. 3) finally, it causes anxiety and stress in an artifical manner. People no longer know how to sit down, have a cup of tea, cofee, soda, beer, whatever... together and discuss things. Very few know how to be creative (why learn to play a guitar when Wii can make you a guitar hero in one afternoon?). And most people (both adults and kids) will have a visceral stress response when their favorite forms of stimulation are removed from them. They can NOT relax without the stimuli. The idea that a good afternoon involves swimming in a lake (or pool), then warming yourself on a rock while contemplating the universe with two to three of your best friends, followed by a lazy daze in a hammock, only to wake up in time to eat dinner is tantamount to blashme in our society. Even without the tech gadgets - look at how OVERSCHEDULED a typical week at scout camp is. It has to be - the parents DEMAND that they get their money's worth. God forbid little Johnny would acutally RELAX while at camp, swim a little and then hang with his friends and play chess / checkers or maybe take turns burning ants with a magnifying glass! yet, those are the best parts of camp from my youth and the things I remember that made it great. I actually saw scouts CRYING last summer, because adult leaders were YELLING at them to move faster to get them from activity A to activity B and then on to chow so they wouldn't be late for flag ceremony before dinner - it was a shame

Don't worry Bando - I'm sure they'll bring it back as part of the 150th anniversary celebration. It will be one of a few "historic" MB's that can be earned THAT YEAR ONLY

For what its worth, in our council - if you don't at lest make a token attempt to participate in Popcorn sales, the council will REFUSE to sign-off on any other unit fundraising permits. So, you want to hold a car wash or pancake feed to raise monies to go to Philmont? Then your unit had better at least turn SOMETHING in at popcorn time, or they won't approve your other fundraising venture. DeanRx FOS is a little less of an arm twist, the DE's just ask you to do multiple presentations in the same year to folks who have lost their jobs - it a hard sell for sure.

Sorry to play devil's advocate on this one.... What the HELL is BSA going to do when they have hundred's if not thousands of units trying to recharter and the adult VOLUNTEER leaders' records are either out of date (or more often not correct with council or the national web site)? Close down the units overnight for untrained leaders? Bah. I understand the push for trained leaders - I'm taking OWL this weekend. BUT, the idea that I need to RETAKE YPG now as my son goes into Web I because I last took it when he was a Tiger is bull-Sh*t - period. The guidelines haven't changed, the rules haven't changed, the things we need to be doing to keep kids safe haven't changed. All that's changed is an increase in beuraucrtic red-tape pushed down the throat of UNPAID VOLUNTEERS by those who we sell popcorn for so they can have a paycheck! Have a leader YPG trained BEFORE they can submit an app? Are you nuts? I'm doing good to have an adult be brave enough to raise their hand and say they'll be the Tiger Cub DL at a round-up. Its made known that they will have to submit application and that the app includes background checks and that certain training must be accomplished in short order (i.e. YPG, NLE, Fast start). I'm not even opposed to having a policy that states one must have YPG completed before holding any den meetings. BUT - I just got my Tiger DL's ID card in the mail from national at recharter in Jan of this year... he'd been the DL since last June!!! Do we have to wait to know if the background check cleared? That's a bigger issue than YPG, I would think. This (like a good number of things hastily brought into an organization) - is born of good intent, but stinks when the reality of the situation is revealed. I hope BSA national rethinks this stance. Its just another nail in the coffin of poor BSA policy if they don't reverse course. Trained - absolutely Trained in a reasonable timeframe - YES Trained before you can start? - Why would anyone sign up to help? Accurate tracking of training - is a JOKE in most councils (sure is in mine) - I've had to resubmit less paperwork when I was in the Army. My rule for all leaders in my unit is - Submit only copies of certifications, under no circumstances surrender an original, and they probably have it worng at council and therefore wrong on the national database, so take your copies with you to trainings to PROVE you've already completed things. Scout units will be brought to a grinding halt due to inaccurate data records if this policy is truely enforced as described. The youth will NOT be any safer, and the program will suffer as a result. But, some honcho at national will be able to show what 'they' did in their tenure to increase BSA's vigillance in YPG. DeanRx

Sorry to play devil's advocate on this one.... What the HELL is BSA going to do when they have hundred's if not thousands of units trying to recharter and the adult VOLUNTEER leaders' records are either out of date (or more often not correct with council or the national web site)? Close down the units overnight for untrained leaders? Bah. I understand the push for trained leaders - I'm taking OWL this weekend. BUT, the idea that I need to RETAKE YPG now as my son goes into Web I because I last took it when he was a Tiger is bull-Sh*t - period. The guidelines haven't changed, the rules haven't changed, the things we need to be doing to keep kids safe haven't changed. All that's changed is an increase in beuraucrtic red-tape pushed down the throat of UNPAID VOLUNTEERS by those who we sell popcorn for so they can have a paycheck! Have a leader YPG trained BEFORE they can submit an app? Are you nuts? I'm doing good to have an adult be brave enough to raise their hand and say they'll be the Tiger Cub DL at a round-up. Its made known that they will have to submit application and that the app includes background checks and that certain training must be accomplished in short order (i.e. YPG, NLE, Fast start). I'm not even opposed to having a policy that states one must have YPG completed before holding any den meetings. BUT - I just got my Tiger DL's ID card in the mail from national at recharter in Jan of this year... he'd been the DL since last June!!! Do we have to wait to know if the background check cleared? That's a bigger issue than YPG, I would think. This (like a good number of things hastily brought into an organization) - is born of good intent, but stinks when the reality of the situation is revealed. I hope BSA national rethinks this stance. Its just another nail in the coffin of poor BSA policy if they don't reverse course. Trained - absolutely Trained in a reasonable timeframe - YES Trained before you can start? - Why would anyone sign up to help? Accurate tracking of training - is a JOKE in most councils (sure is in mine) - I've had to resubmit less paperwork when I was in the Army. My rule for all leaders in my unit is - Submit only copies of certifications, under no circumstances surrender an original, and they probably have it worng at council and therefore wrong on the national database, so take your copies with you to trainings to PROVE you've already completed things. Scout units will be brought to a grinding halt due to inaccurate data records if this policy is truely enforced as described. The youth will NOT be any safer, and the program will suffer as a result. But, some honcho at national will be able to show what 'they' did in their tenure to increase BSA's vigillance in YPG. DeanRx

What is the SM works for a bank that took TARP funds? What if the scout gets pinched for a petty theft? What if the scout's parents run an internet porn site from home? Unfortunately, unlike school board lawyers, real life isn't full of cut-n-dry zero-tolerance issues. As adults we are trying to teach these youth that 1) There are responsibilities for ones actions and 2) There are many grey areas in which reasonable people have to sometimes make tough decisions based on a single issues facts. You can play "what-if" all day long... it doesn't mean there needs to be a policy to every conceivable senerio. What does need to be identified is WHO on te committee gets to (for lack of a better term) determine the appropriate punishment or sanction for a given behavoir. Is it the SM, ASMs and CC? Or just the SM and 2 ASMs, etc... Identify the trusted induviduals, then stand by their decision should the need for a judgement arise.

I go back to the FIRST thing our district trainer told us in our CM breakout session for CM specific traning. "your job 99% of the time is to BE A DUCK" Provide the program to the boys and let the rest run off your back. A simple, "I'm sorry, I didn't realize you weren't getting the e-mails, can I verify your address and I'll add you first thing when I get home tonight" - then move on with life.

I understand where you are coming from. Money is tight for just about everyone these days. You can certainly spend a good deal of money on BSA or any other youth organized events that a child may participate in. Where I live - 1 season of little league baseball costs about $250 plus uniform cost. Season lasts 4 months. Soccer is a little cheaper, but still over $100 a season and lasts 4 months. Not sure what music, theater or any other extracirriculars cost, but its at least $100+ a kid for a session, most don't go year round. Scouting can be done with a 2nd hand shirt, a $8 book and some fund raising for belt loops and rank awards. The average outlay in our pack is about $200 / kid per year for awards, plus their uniform shirt that they buy ONE TIME for 4 years of cubs, and a new shirt for webelos. Even brand new, shirts cost about $35 max. Our pack dues are $80 per year. So, a kid in cub scouts will cost a parent (single or otherwise) $80 x 6 years (tiger thru web II) = $480 plus about $35 dollars for a shirt. Roughly $500 over a 5 year period or $100 a year to participate. Through effective fund raising and our dues, our pack buys all awards, new handbook and necker for each scout going on the next year, and all program materials (i.e. pinewood kits, crafts, space derby kits, etc...) The only other add-on would be family campouts that we charge $20 pp for a 3 day weekend of camping. Yes, it costs - but I'd argue that the value is a great one considering the amount of events, service, and instruction a kid gets for their parents' $100/year investment. Not to mention we try to teach citizenship, ethics, morals, along the way... sports might teach good sportsmanship and teamwork, but little else. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better value in a youth organization - bang for the buck - than scouting provides. If there are any others out there that offer such value, I'm not sure what they are. DeanRx

Those are some nice numbers - I've never really seen any data on the breakdown of affiliations within BSA. The REAL numbers though, come with dollar signs attached. Not, how many members, but how MUCH MONEY does each of the major CO's generate for BSA overall? Good luck finding that data. I doubt Irving wants to part with such information. The other 5000 pound Gorilla in the room is how much does BSA spend per year in the courtroom to uphold the policies that enforce the "values" of the LDS (and the other major religious CO players)? Again, good luck ever getting any disclosure on how much of each scout's $15 national gets goes to fight the "good fight" in the courts to keep the gays and non-believers at bay instead of being spent on program. The one number that is published is the CSE Mazzuca's salary at around 1.16 million a year. More than Girl Scout's highest paid pro (530K) and more than the United Ways' CEO makes (973K). This is via http://www.bbb.org/charity-reviews/national/#S CEO of 4-H (603K) CEO of American Red Cross (204K) American Leigon (234K) CEO of YMCA assoc (552K) Don't look at roll call numbers to determine who charts the course... look at who funds the paychecks of one of the highest paid non-profit CEO's in the United States. That's where the influence lies.

Do you know if there are any outstanding debts not reported on the Tresurer's report? Our pack (about 60 boys), currently has about 9K in the bank. I (as the CM) was asked "why so much" at the last pack meeting and I replied because we still hadn't reimbursed the B&G chair roughly $1500, that awards alone usually run our unit about $250 a month, that there was $1250 budgeted for the upcoming pack campout that has not yet been spent and that about 2K of the money is tied up in individual scout accounts. I knew those numbers off the top of my head from my committee meeting of two weeks prior. Awards @ $250/meeting x 9 pack meetings a year = $2250 Recharter of 60 boys + Boys life @ $30 / scout = $1800 B&G expenses of $1500 campout expenses of $1250 2K in individual accounts That's right at $8800. So, that money has to carry us until next year's popcorn sales money comes in (around Dec / Jan and usually not until AFTER the unit has to cut a check for recharter). Even though our unit has a little over 9K in the bank right now in May, if expenses for awards hold at historical levels, 95% of those funds are already "spent" before we replenish the coffers with dues and popcorn sales next fall. So, if I were you, I'd first ask, "What is the ave monthly outlay for awards?" I assume, unlike unit activities that are 'pay-to-play' on top of dues, that ranks, belt loops, pins, and participation patches are covered by the pack? You'd be amazed how fast those things add up. In addition, does the pack pay for neckerchief, slide or books for bridging scouts at the end of the year? Next I'd ask, "Are these earmarked items included in the gen fund total, or is the gen fund above and beyond each of the earmarked sub-groups?" Maybe it is or maybe it isn't. Then offer to help with the treasurer and find out HOW they are spending money and HOW they are tracking it. I think its fine to ask the quesitons. Any unit that can't explain their expenditures is cause for concern. However, the idea that every year the bank account should return to zero in favor of "spending the money on the boys who earned it that year" is a very bad idea. Its a sure way to find your unit bankrupt in an off-fundraising year. Also, questions about money from folks who have not spent much time in the trenches running the unit are best served with a helpful, non-accusatory attitude. Just be friendly about it and they likely have a good explanation for where the money is either already spent, or is heading later in the year. Our 9K is pretty much spent already, its just that the checks haven't been cut. Our only cushion is the $80 / year in dues we get from each boy (yes, $80, getting off on $30 is very cheap) in the fall. $80 x 60 boys = $4800 to float us from late August until the popcorn check comes back from council in mid-Dec. That's roughly 1/3 our operating budget for the year to float over 4.5 months. I wouldn't want to cut it any closer than that, as I have personally with-held $900 in receipts over the Christmas holiday until the popcorn money arrived two years ago to keep the unit in the black. An extra $900 float on my personal credit card for 1.5 months over the holiday season is a LOT to ask from anyone, even if they are a dedicated unit leader. And no, I didn't charge the unit interest. Bottom line - look at fiscal responsibility as a very good thing for the unit. As long as the MAJORITY of the funds are being spent on program and none of the adult leaders are getting PAID, then its really not a big deal and in fact is probably a well ran unit.

You have 3 sons going... I say throw 3 kids, plus all gear inside tent. Then it can't blow away , or if it does, its much easier to find all the boys if they are grouped together in one large tent than if they blow away seperately.

1) TC is WAaaaay over-ranked if he's still a TC 2) Shirts aren't tucked in? Really? 3) None of the younger cubs (TC, Wolf, or Bear) has any progress towards ranks hanging from the right pocket. 4) Webelos scout needs to shave Other than that, a pretty good picture.

While I understand WHY BSA made this move and most of our dens in the pack already operate like this... Its a sad, sad commentary on parental involvement in most kids' lives these days. Parents don't want to have to work on anything with their child or spend time with them other than be the chaufuer from one paid activity to the next. They want to pay the dues, drop them off, pick them up in an hour to hour-and-half, and have them get an award for something at the pack meeting. With the new cub program, BSA has bought into and endorsed this mentality. While I'm not opposed to this shift in program, I wish BSA had rolled out something with more emphasis on FAMILY involvement in scouting. Boys do their best when mom, dad, grandparents, or someone in their family actually engages in the activities with them and takes an interest in their progress. Now, progress is squarely planted in the den leaders ability to run the meetings as assigned. Its a business model really - why not, Wood Badge has changed this way, so has most of the youth leadership training in Boy Scouts as far as I can tell. I guess advancement = retention - so you can't really argue with the formula. However, I fear that this is just one more step towards scouting becoming about advancement and advancement only. We already have enough scouts (and more so parents) that view the program as a goal to be reached, instead of a lifestyle to be lived. Look on these boards regarding drop rates after AOL, drop rates in involvement after getting Eagle, and struggling OA units. A good deal of that can be traced to, "well, I made it to the final rank, nothing left for me to do in scouts... time to move on to something else....". Not to mention the entire emphasis on rank advancement (both in cubs and in boy scouts) tends to change the program into a "me" driven program. What can 'I' achieve, instead of 'how can I mature while helping or serving others'. Oh well, like most everything else in western society and western education (for sure), it must be quantified, stratified and have metrics measured or else we as a society usually find little use for it and assign little value to it. Dean's 2-cents

Amen brother Eamonn- I've always tried to opperate under the premise "If you act in the best interest of the youth, you will not likely be called to explin your actions". That premise over-rides any policy someone could think to type up. The lone kid after a meeting, the scout getting sick in the middle of the night, the bug-bitten-butt... all great examples. You act in the best interest of the scout and you will do just fine. As for the nicknames, jokes, etc... its a fine line between a little poking fun and outright hazing. In my day, hazing was generally tolerated if not encouraged. I don't see the big deal with it so long as its not dangerous or overly hurtful in nature. All forms of serious male bonding have at least some ritual haxing involved. BSA, fraternities, military units, workplaces w/ the new guy - if done in good fun it grows unit cohesion. If done with malice, it cuts groups apart. Again, someone with a sliver of common sense can usually tell the dividing line. Stay on the right side of it and it should not be a problem. Good post Eamonn.

Two things our pack has done to GREATLY reduce the "all benefit from the work of the few". #1 - 10% of popcorn money sold goes into individual scout accounts, so you sell $300, you now have $30 scout bucks to go towards ANY scouting activity you want. Buy a new shirt, turn in the receipt and get your scout bucks back in cash. Apply them towards day-camp or resident camp fees. Apply them towards unit family campout fees. Even if you buy a new tent (its scouting related) - we reimburse out of your scout bucks if you want. #2 - We look at historical program costs and break that into a per scout dollar amount. Then we determine how much each scout needs to sell for the 1/3 that goes to the unit to hit that target operating cost. Most years, its around $300. So, for every scout that sells $350 or more, they get to "pie the cubmaster" with a whipped cream pie at a pack meeting. You sell, $700, you get TWO pies for the cubmaster. Myself and the ACM took 36 pies in the face for the cause this past fall. We had 8 kids that earned TWO pies and one kid who got to throw THREE pies. This 'incentive' proves to be a large motivator for the scouts. We spend about $50 on supplies and cans of whipped cream (get them at cost from my employer), but the incentives and an awesome popcorn kernel organizing our show and sells have netted us over 20K in sales per year for the last 3 years. That means this is the only fundraising we do. We also offer an opt-out for a cost of $120, but I try to discourage parents from taking this option because it does little to teach their child how to pay their own way AND while it feeds the unit account, it does nothing to help out the district and council (1/3 popcorn goes to unit, 1/3 council, 1/3 Trails End). Our council camps need the funds just as bad as the units, so I feel one should try and do their part to help fund both. DeanRx

Unfortunately, its just another of BSA's contradictions in its espoused values vs its reality in policy. Respect and kindness to all (idea) = execpt for gays and non-believers (policy) Teach a kid to shoot BB, 22-cal, archery (idea and policy) = no hunting, no marshmallow guns (even though our council gave then out as Popcorn prizes this year), no lazer tag, and no water gun fights (even though our council's recruitment flyer last year showed a picture of one at scout camp)policy. Martial arts beltloop (idea is its bad, might be violent) = video game beltloop (those never show violence in them) - this in an age when we are fighting youth obesity and have new ht/Wt standards that would exclude the Chief Scout Exec. from participation at Philmont! You can WATCH martial arts, you can WATCH certain COPE / adventure stuff, you can LEARN about proper boating techniques, canoeing and kyaking, but if you're under age 14 - that's all you can do!! You can't DO any of them, not safe until that magical age. You need to know survival techniques (idea) = but we'll just talk about them at camp b/c to actually BUILD an improvised shelter has too great an environmental impact (policy) Its sad - but a sign of the times when every activity is looked upon from a "what's the worst thing that could happen" mentality. Martial Arts falls into that category. Someone, somwhere, in the far removed halls of BSA policy-making decided that certain martial arts are OK and others are no-no's based on either the FEAR of an injury, or the FEAR that it would teach aggression and violence. Oh one more, BSA exists to raise self-reliant, BRAVE young men (idea) = BSA is often too AFRAID something might go wrong to offer the very adventures / challenges boys crave and need to become BRAVE young men (policy)

Most of the folks that get caught in the rip-currents off our shores are not locals either. Mostly from Arizona or other bordering states... CA is definitely in the worst finacial shape of any. Guess we should quit wading out in the water to save those out-staters who come visit and swim unprepared beyond their limits?

T2Eagle- I would tend to agree with you, however, WHO gets to make that determination? If the state wants to charge, then I'm fine with it, but be up front about it... have a line on the topo that says, "if you're inside here and we have to come get you - you have to pay for it", or take a $5 per person per day "risk" fee to offset costs of those who use the area. I have friends that are medi-vac pilots, you turn the rotors and wind the engine one time on a helicoper and the fuel alone is going to run 1 to 2 grand and that's not even to get the bird off the ground! My beef is this: 1) Negilent means a willful disregard for reasonable safety. Heck, well seasoned outdoorsmen and hikers on this forum cannot come to a consensus on what was reasonable safety precautions in this case. 2) Being told you are going to have to pay AFTER the fact leaves folks little room to make an informed decision about the potential COST of their risk taking behavoir. 3) If its really an undue outlay of resources, then disband the fish & game, the county sherrif, and whatever other agency's lent manpower and rescources to the rescue and make the public aware, "You're on your own". Its false pretense to say we'll come get you, but only if you pay. Its worse yet when state and local governments say, "We'll come get you, but we get to determine if you were too big a knucklehead in what you were doing, so we may charge you... but we won't know how much that'll be until the rescue is over." Would this family have been billed if they were a promenient political family in the area? What if his dad was the CEO of a major corporation in the area? What if his uncle just happened to WORK for fish and game? I doubt they'd be looking to collect. What if he HAD taken a stove (ridiculous for a day hike, but OK - I'll play along), a down Parka, and a dogsled with a full double-walled snow tent? Then would he be considered negligent? I've personally rescued a toddler from an accidental drowning at a local lake as a young man. They called in park rangers, EMT and had a med-evac on standby because they didn't know for sure the condition of the little girl once I got her back to shore. It sure was negligence on the part of this little girl's mother and grandmother for letting a 2 y/o wander into the swimming area of the lake unsupervised. Thankfully, a few minutes of CPR and about a 1/2 gallon of lake water and puke was the worst of it. Anyone think those parents should have been charged by the authorities for the resources they scrambled that day? Heck no, they were doing their JOBS. At the time, I thought they should be arrested for child endangerment, but I grew to understand that in life sometimes there are ACCIDENTS. Yes, sometimes people's ill choice / action can potentiate a bad outcome, but its still everyone's job (especially the public services - fire, rescue, EMT, fish&game) to help SAVE THE VICTIM. Why else to sure agency's exist? Why else have they spent the taxpayors dollars on helicopters and other equipment? The reason this family was harrased by the state: 1) All goverment agency's are hurting for funding right now 2) They had a HUGE outlay of costs over multiple agency's and over multiple days 3) The kid got out just fine / realitively unharmed for the threat faced. Hard to not come off looking REAL bad when you bill the family after you complete a body recovery mission. I have to believe that if it hadn't been such a long and wide ranging (i.e. expensive) search, in very tough economic times, then the outlay of cost would be a non-issue.

Any agency is going to support the notion that ANYONE they have to go in after is ill-prepared. That way, they can 1) use the law to seek reimbursement and 2) persuade via the local media, others to think hard before they go and do the same thing. I just find the idea of charging someone for rescue services (that are normally part of the public protection agency's duties) ridiculous. What the hell do we pay taxes for then? Why not make rescue service a pay as you play service? Tack on a $5/day service fee for daily use of certain wilderness areas or something like that. BUT, if this is part of their normal duty mission, then how the hell can a state agency decide to BILL private citizens for their services? "991 - what is your emergency?" "Uh, there's someone trying to break into my house, they have a gun, send the cops !!!" "Sir, we need to get a Credit Card on file first - would you like them to do the full response with hollow-tipped bullets for an extra $500 - It's an add on service..." Its a VERY dangerous situation when public service folks charged with serving and protecting are in a position to shake-down the citizens they are supposed to be helping. The underfunding of the agency is a local or state government issue. If they want to bill someone, sue their state congress for diversion or redirection of the funding they were supposed to have - don't take it out on a victim that needs their services. Whether the victim is a complete knuckle-head and went hiking in the winter in a T-shirt and tennis shoes - I would not favor billing them. You're called to help, you go help - that's WHY the agency's exist in the 1st place. Its a slippery slope in exotic public funding and it decreases the likihood someone truely in need of help will seek assistance. Bad, bad idea.

The state actually tried to bill this family ?!?! That's crap. I agree, he made a poor choice, but I don't see how this could be considered negligence. Heck, by this standard, if you're on a day hike in N.H. and get lost, then they have to send out a search party - you are on the hook because if it rains that night and you didn't take a big enough jacket and enough water - you could be labelled as negligent ?!?!? I wonder if N.H. charges everyone a bill for every fire truck and ambulance that rolls to an auto accident? Usually, a car wreck is somebdy's fault and could much more easily be due to negligence. Guess one should't go hiking alone and twist their ankle in H.N. Glad the state backed down. Sad, the family paid $1000 - thought that was what we pay taxes for in the 1st place? Do they get a bill from the fire department if their house burns to the ground and the fault of the fire is found to be someone left the iron on? Sheesh ! Funny - from the news story, sounds like if the economy wasn't in the toilet, the bill would have been a non-issue.

While I'm not a lawyer, I do practice in a very regulated and lawyer happy field... I see several issues going on here: 1) Plantifs lawyer is using sensational press to bolster his client's claim. Whether there's any justification or not remains to be seen and ultimately is irrelevent as perception is what matters in an issue like this. 2) BSA is right not to release the info until ordered by the court. Its obviously a fishing expedition, let them ask for specific documents and then supply only what is requested. I have internal files resulting from QA meetings that I would not want released to the public. Does it mean I'm a poor practitioner? No, it means that I keep track of error issues, no matter how minor as required by state law and review them for patterns and have quarterly meetings to discuss with staff any procedural changes we can make to minimize future incidences. I have on occasion had patients ask to see such files. A polite refusal is always the case followed by, "these are internal QA documents and aren't even discoverable as evidence in court proceedings." If they were to push it further, they can speak with my counsel. That's just good TQM, but it shouldn't be open to discovery if not applicable to a given case. 3) BSA (it appears) has kept or keeps files not just on KNOWN abusers, but SUSPECTED abusers as well. A suspected abuser could be anyone from someone that BSA had very strong suspection of abuse, but no proof, to just someone that scout Johnny got pissed off at and made a false claim, so the adult leader had their membership revoked and now they are blacklisted from the organization. Problem is, they are both lumped into the same file. Problem with a file such as this, no matter what name someone uses to describe it, is that it is murky water at best. One can look at it and state, "Well at least BSA is being proactive and keeping out the suspected riff raff." Another can look at the same file and proclaim, "BSA sure had a lot of perverts in their ranks, I'm sure there's got ot be more." Still a 3rd can claim, "Look, so and so had a complaint filed 3 years before they admitted to molesting 17 youth... and BSA did nothing." Whether or not BSA had enough evidence or found the claim from 3 years ago valid, not to mention the social and organizational attitudes of the time vs current policy, is irrelevant. The person is going to see what benefits their stance in the document. The good is that documenting usually protects you because it shows what an organization did or was doing to prevent and remedy an issue. The bad is that decades of documentation is open to Monday morning quarterbacking by lawyers who are playing by today's rules and laws, with no regard to what the policies, laws, or social norms were at the time the documentation took place. If BSA wanted to look like the "good guy" in this incidence, then when faced with a request for the entire record, they should have countered with - we will provide what is relevant to this case with regards to Mr. X as determined by a court appointed oversight panel. Offer to let the court determine what is relevant and keep to remainder private. Now, as I said, I am no lawyer, so I'm not sure such a counter offer is even a viable legal option in such a case, but it seems common sense. Often, the law is not common sense in nature. If not, their only option may have been to refuse and hold out until told to release the entire record by the court. If so, WHY is the BSA PR folks not quick to point this out when asked by the press for a comment on the situation? I agree the BSA looks bad for waiting until a court orders them to turn over the files as evidence. But, if that is the normal judical procedure and was their only recourse - then WHY hasn't it been pointed out to the press by the BSA? Otherwise, BSA comes off looking like they had something to hide. Maybe they do, maybe they don't - but the handlers must realize the potential public perception regardless of the truth and spin their stance in a positive light.