DeanRx

I have a very simple solution to the AC that is getting run raggeed and getting no appreciation for it... as for not getting a thank you - let the SM know and he'll likely make it a point at the next CoH. Just because she was left off the list doesn't mean it was intentional, just overlooked - we all make mistakes. Now - for the meat and potatos of this thread.... Set a deadline and hold your ASM's and SM to it - period. We are all adults and have deadlines in every other aspect of life. If CoH is on the 15th, then ALL awards must be in to the AC NLT the 10th. You call on the 11th, then THAT ASM gets to explain to the scout in question WHY he will be waiting until next month to get his award. You MUST do this if you are running a unit with over a dozen boys in it. We've had explosive growth in the past 3 years, going from about 20 kids to well over 50. It is unfair to the volunteers involved to expect last minute add-ons as the norm. I've had upset moms and dads asking why Johnny didn't get his rank this month. Me, "Well, you need to speak with his DL on that. The deadline was (date). Did the DL let you know all awards needed to be in to him before that?" and then leave it be. I've had a couple different responses to that exchange. most of the time, its, "No, the DL never let us know." - then my answer is they need to coordinate better with the DL because award deadlines are put out at LEAST 2 weeks (more like a month) before the drop dead date. DL's need to backplan and have time to collate their report and get it into the AC on time. I've had a mother tell me on the night of the Pack Meeting, "Well, I IM'd the DL this morning." My reply, "I'm sorry, but the deadline was last Friday. Your son will get his awards next month." Its just like a report to your boss or making your house payment - it happens at the same time every month.... put it in your crackberry, or a sticky note, or e-mail it to yourself - however you keep track of your deadlines. You blow past it - YOU get to explain it to the youth you serve - that is NOT part of my job.

Well, mine is the world of cubbing right now, but some things to consider and items our unit committee has ID'd and written into simple bylaws... most have to do with funding and decision making. 1) I would not advocate double signatures on checks. All it does is slow down reimbursement to those who have fronted their hard earned cash on behalf of the unit. Better stance is to have an independent audit of checks (once per quarter) by someone on the committee OTHER than the treasurer. If the treasurer is doing their job, this takes about 10 minutes. 2) IF you have indivdual scout accounts for fundraising, you need to identify WHAT the money can / can't be spent on - and more importantly spell out WHAT happens to any unused funds if/when the scout either quits or ages out of scouting. We usually have a good number of Web II's aging over to Boy Scouts that have a residual amount in their "cub bucks" account. It is spelled out in our bylaws that any unused monies reverts back to the general fund if a scout leaves the unit for any reason - period. Do not leave this open to interpretation unless you want some heated debate and very hurt feelings at a later date. You do not want Johnny (or more often Johnny's parents) asking you to cut a check for $250 out of unit funds because Johnny is no longer interested in scouting. 3) Finally, spell out WHO gets a vote and in what capacity on the unit committee. Must they be a registered adult? Just a concerned parent(s)? In a specific leadership position? Who has the athority to cast a tie-breaking vote? Not really that important HOW you set this up, just that it is down in writing BEFORE the unit reaches an impass on a particular issue and the leaders / youth involved have already voiced their opinions. This keeps any and all debate fair and above the board and gives dissenters very little traction if they end up on the losing end of a split decision. My 2 cents - your miliage may very... DeanRx

Short answer is - Do whatever you want. Per BSa guidelines, you should not wear items you earned as a youth other than knots above the left pocket. However, you can wear a temporary patch either on or hanging from the button (or both) of the right pocket. Put your Philmont patch or religious emblem there and don't let anyone tell you you can't. REASON - I wear my old OA patch on that pocket (the unit has been merged and its an out of commission unit now anyways) - BUT, it is a GREAT conversation starter with the youth... How'd you get that one.... how old were you when you got it? What did you have to do to earn it?... All those types of questions build the fire in the boys' ambition to do more than just their current rank. It is one of the BEST retention tools you have at your disposal. My 2 cents.... DeanRx P.S. - Welcome to the virtual campfire.

Basement- You are way above what I could have put up with. PWD build, I would have cancelled it b/c of failure of adult supervision. Plain and simple. Let the scouts know thatyou need some moms and dads to show up and help out or you cannot have the build date. Use the children's peer pressure - either they want it and will get it out of their parents or they won't. Second - any flak I get from a DE or UC about FOS and not enough dollars or waxing and waning roster numbers would be met with a HUGE steaming cup of some not-so-scoutlike comebacks. I had a DE try to shake me down ONCE about FOS, I told him, "My job is to provide program for youth, not prvide your paychek. If it wasn't enough, ten we just wo't even do a FOS at B&G next year." He changed hs tune really fast. Bottom line - people will run all ove yo as much as you allow them to. Aso, those of us that do volunteer havea vr had time saying "no". You need to learn to say "no without feelig quilty about it. I say have a Pack meetig, pre-recruit two adults to lead some outdoor gaes for the boys, then YOU have a come-to-Jesus meeting with the parents inside. Print and show them your OP. Flat out ask them if ANY of them even realized this is how you are feeling. Then lay out the types and numbers of volunteers you need to actually run the pack and tell them that the meeting will NOT adjourn until: 1) You have firm commitments to help with leadership or 2) The parents VOTE to disband the unit. If its #2 - let them know up front that THEY, not you get to break the news to their kids. Your kids are already beyond the cub years, so no big deal to you if the unit folds... its THEIR unit and you provide program. Ask THEM what THEY want to do with THEIR unit and then follow through on it. My 2-cents (BTW - the come-to-Jesus meeting works well, I've had to use it a couple times in my career). You have to get to the point that wanting a quality unit / program outwieghs your fear of being seen as an *sshole. Sometimes the best leaders lead the horse to water... sometimes great leaders hold the horse's head IN the trough until they either drink or drown. Force that pony's nose in the water.

The ONLY kid who will fall off the dock is the one in the group who can't swim. Playing keep away with the last roll of toliet paper is only funny if you're not the one who needs to use the port-a-john. TP makes great tinder for a campfire, used TP insures you get the fire all to yourself. The only kid who will fall and gash his leg open on the hike is the one who faints at the sight of blood, you can hike the rest through shards of broken glass without a scratch. Same applies to bee stings and allergic reactions... The best way to get back at the SM that sends you out on a Snipe hunt is to actually bring one back in the bag! Hydration bladders work great as squirt guns when held in the bagpipe position. The only thing worse than no TP is wet TP. Waterproof matches aren't. Rip-stop nylon isn't. Gucci doesn't make a fashionable wag-bag. If you can get real buffalo skin blankets, it doesn't matter what the temperature is outside the tent. A scout's willingness to cook for oneself is directly porportional to the hunger in his belly. Grunting and scratching sounds outside the tent is an extremely effective way to get scouts to shut up and go to sleep. Push-ups, moving rocks, and dragging picnic tables are all effective forms of camp discipline - I speak from expirience. The only thing better than packig up the tuck to start the trip, is when the last parent picks up their kid.

Hopefully, I am not straying too far off topic, and I've already posted on my ideas for what to do within CS advancement, but the attrition issue stems from several colliding factors IMHO.... 1) Leader burnout by the Web II year - already been discussed and due to a multitude of reasons... 2) The view of a large number of scouts and parents that AOL is a FINISH LINE, instead of the starting place for Boy Scouting. I've even heard parents lament, "I just want to get Johnny to stick it out until AOL, then he can go do football, baseball, soccer, music, etc..." - they view it as a goal to achieve and then be done. 3) Far too much repitition in Webelos and 1st year of scouts. Basically, if a cubbie earns the AOL, they should just tack on the Scout rank because they've already done almost all the requirements for Scout when earning the AOL. Add to this the fact that to earn AOL, they have to often redo many of the belt loops they have.... well - been there, done that (got the t-shirt too if they did it at Webelos Woods). 4) The largest factor for BOYS LOOSING INTEREST - the lack of challenging outdoor activities / high adventure availible to scouts from Webelos II to age 14 that is different than what they have already done as a Webelos. Moving water canoing? Nope. Shoot anything bigger / badder than a 0.22cal? Nope. Rock Climbling? Nope. - just boldering says G2SS. Obstacle course / cope? Nope. Horseback riding? Maybe. The list of the things you CANNOT do until you are age 14 or higher seems to grow every year. I understand the safety concerns, but these are the same kids who are playing football, hockey, etc. Many in rural areas already shoot shotgun, large caliber hunting rifles and some black powder with their dads, but can't go anywhere near it on a BSA range. This screams "LAME" to a 11-13 y/o. If BSA is serious about retaining / recruiting Webelos into Boy Scouts and not loosing them the 1st 2 years, they need to rethink the age restrictions on a LOT of the "high adventure" activities. Heck, I was at Northern Tier at age 13 doing open water canoing. Not sure that's even allowed now and its only been 1 generation. I WON my summer camp belly flop contest one year as a 12 or 13 y/o - yes doing belly flops off a diving board (gasp!) - There's not a council pool in existence that has a low or high board anymore. Yet almost EVERY public pool in teh US has diving boards and water slides now. Get the dang lawyers out of the decision tree on what kids of a certain age can or cannot do and put the adventure back in for ALL scouts, not just the older ones! This became VERY appearant to me at the Webelos Woods, when a mature Life scout (he had to be close to 18y/o) gave a tour of the council camp to our group of Webelos. He kept on stating, "Once your a scout and over 14, you can do this at camp, or you can do that, etc...". Two of our Webelos Scouts looked at him and asked, "Well, what can we do next summer at camp as a Boy Scout?" - His answer, "Well, pretty much what you are doing right now." That is the killer of retention right there.

Hopefully, Eagle92 is a pro at the council or higher level and has the ability to make these ideas known to national at some point.... silly to play "king for a day" if its just wishful thinking, but here goes.... 1) Do away with Tiger Cub Year. REASON: Go-see-its are a pain to coordinate, and we expect the newbie leader to take on this task right out of the gate - this is intimadating to the new leader (it was to me a few years ago). 2) Less paperwork / poster work and more build useful things and do things outdoors. Look at how many of the requirements state "Draw a poster that x,y,z... and pressent it at a den our pack meeting..." why so we can have one more piece of useless cardboard to recycle? 3) If you want to have go-see-its, make it part of the wolf or bear year. 4) Webelos should be ONE YEAR ONLY - ditto on the poster that said its bogus to require re-earning of beltloops for Web Acitivity Pins - NO other part of BSA advancement requires re-dos of things a scout has already completed (as far as I know of). It might state that camping for one merit badge doesn't count towards another, but ther is no repeating things already completed. The main reason for dropping Tigers and condensing Webelos to 1 year is BURNOUT. For both adults and kids, its extremely hard to present a program that works for both 5-6 y/o 1st graders and 11-12 y/o 5th graders... WAY too much of a stretch. I'd almost like to see the program divided into Cubs (2nd - 5th grade) , Jr. Souts (6th,7,8) and then Boy Scouts /High adventure for 9-12th grades. There is a reason educators do NOT put 7th graders in with guys who are shaving, why does BSA do it? Its a very large spread to provide quality program to all at all times. My 2 cents- Dean

I use a flat oil drip pan from the local Napa store. Cost me $7, I use a charcoal chiminey starter to get the coals good and hot, then spead them out on the pan, I can cook with 2 ovens on this set-up. If it need to be off the ground, I support it with a series of 6 to 8 patio paver bricks, I've seen cinder blocks used as well. However, if its on concrete without any type of stamping or coloring in the concrete - you can place it directly on the ground. you'd have to get uber hot to damage the concrete surface.

I'm mostly with Beav and OGE on this one too - the only caveate I would add is that often LNT is not applied correctly in the correct setting. Overzealous types can (and do) attempt to apply backcountry and frontcountry guidelines to well established camping areas and that just doesn't work. Some examples I can think of: 1) do not leave firewood or an established fire ring at a backcountry campsite. For the most part the answer is YES. But, if you are, for instance, at Northern Tier - you can only camp in designated campsite areas on the topo maps within the boundry waters bi-national park. If you happen to have a couple extra logs you didn't burn, WHY would you not leave them by the campfire ring (the one and only one allowed that you can use for a given site) so the campers that come behind you will have less gathering to do. Now, you do not go out of your way to stack up a 1/2 season worth of firewood, but it makes sense to leave it be. It also makes sense to reuse tent sites so as to limit impact to multiple grass areas within these camps. The same does not apply to an off trail, true backcountry camp - in which case most parks require NO open fires and pack stoves only to cook and heat. 2) Bushwhacking - again, for the most part, stick to established trails. Then again, one cannot GET to the "diving board" off Half Dome without a little off-trail travel. However, if and when you DO go cross country off a trail, you need to take steps to minimize your impact to the area. Doesn't mean you can't do it - just know how to do it in a wise manner. 3) Policing up camp should be a given. Even with our cubs, we walk the campsite at arms length in one direciton, then at a 90 degree direction a second time from our previous police call. I usually have a token prize for the cub who picks up the most trash on the police call (candy or gum). Usually we get one or two cubs that ask about WHY they have to pick up trash that they didn't leave (i.e. old faded wrapper, can or juice box) - its a great teaching moment about "leave it better than you found it" - which is what I believe LNT was called when I was a lad. 4) Sterilizing your backcountry campsite - well um OK, I guess. For starters, I don't use wood fires, so the idea of speading the ash is kind of silly to me (unless it is the remains of your old uncle who loved to hike). If you are camping correctly, there should be very little to "sterilize" when you leave. Unless you have been in place for multiple nights (not likely many folks spend more than 1-2 in the same backcountry campsite), you really don't need to fix the grass, etc.. because your site will spring back within 24-48 hours (less with some moisture and sun) anyways. The only thing in LNT I agree with on this one is the sprinkling of your bio-soap on a non-vegatative area away from water sources, that makes sense. The biggest LNT is to learn PORTION SIZE to minimize dishwater and uneaten leftovers, OR be prepared to pack it back out with you. Planning is key regarding both food in and "food out" so to speak. Many heavily travelled areas require wag-bagging of human waste. Should see the crapper cans - wag-bag trash deposit points, on most major trails around Mt. Ranier in Washington. Funny at first thought, but it has kept areas open that would have required closures due to contaimination otherwise. One other learning bit (a big one for most scouters) - size of fire matters. For some reason, us city folks like to build the largest burning man complex we can. Many times a very small fire will do much better to cook on and to keep you warm. My scoutmaster used to tell us the Indians would laugh at the white man because, "we build small fire to keep warm and huddle close. White man builds big fire - burns his face and freezes his ***(butt)" - my SM was part Souix. Only thing I'm still confussed about with LNT - what is the thinking on urine? Can you / should you go on the ground, or should you wag it out too? What are the environmental implications from urine on the ground? Anyone have a good answer to that one?

Seattle - I'm well aware that there are hundreds of ehtnic groups, cultures, and languages that make up what most demogarphers would describe as 'asain'. Not trying to lump them all together, just using it as an example. As for the link between the Catholic Church and National's emphasis (not your OP's emphasis) on recruiting Hispanics, then WHY has this ONE ethnic group been singled out over all the other eithnic groups that make up the melting pot that is the USA? 1) They are one of the fastest growing minorities in the country 2) They are predominately convservative in their morals and Roman Catholic in their religious beliefs. 3) Most have a very strong sense of family and family obligation These three things make this particular minority population desirable for BSA national. 1) Fast growing, untapped pool of youth 2) Roman Catholic religion dovetails well with BSA aims / goals - and like LDS may provide both leadership and financial support to BSA at both local and national level 3) Family obligation, family respect again dovetails well with BSA aims and goals Not sure how citizenship and patriotism fits in - as a majority of this minority seems to want to embrace their new life and lifestyle in the USA, but remains very strongly connected to their former country's ideology and patriotism. Don't underestimate the BSA Roman Catholic Church connection in this recruitment move. The same was said in the mid-late 80's when all the PTO's and public schools / public institutions stopped being CO's for units and the LDS nicely stepped in and began to offer their locations for meetings and charters. I'm not saying thats all bad and we can debate the pro's / con's of the no gays / no atheist rules on another thread - and the pro's/con's of a church's influence / non-influence on BSA policy on alternate threads as well. However, one HUGE difference from when I was a scout to today's scouting is: 1) the public school system no longer endorses units (either as CO's and in many places as clubs that can use their facilities) and 2) The LDS has great reaching influence into the policies and procedures of BSA at the national level. Neither one of those statements were true 1 generation ago in scouting. If the great hispanic recruitment of the 100th year of BSA actually does take hold, what will it do to shape the organization one generation from now? Its not a far fetched thought that the Roman Catholic Church could easily have the same influence over BSA that the LDS currently enjoys. Maybe thats a good thing, maybe its not..... it sure hasn't led to more inclusive policy stances in the past 20 years and it hasn't helped BSA's ability to increase public land use. It hasn't helped BSA entice youth away from other camping organizations (i.e. Mik-o-say, Indian Guides, etc...) that offer a more inclusive, secular view with regards to admision policies. I'm just saying, there apears to be more to this recruitment push than just going out and recruiting a given ethnic group of youth.

The unfortunate truth is that when you try to morph yourself to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. We have hispanic youth in our pack, we have other ethnic backgrounds as well - its a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. Trouble is - you start printing forms in Spanish, then how do you respond when a French, German, or Phillipino family shows up at the next recruitment? Opps - need more forms in more languages! Its a never ending cycle. Trouble is - I had two fairly prominent usually generous families DROP their FOS donations last year when they found out (from the council rep that was at the meeting) that a significnt portion of this years (FY 2010) FOS donations had been earmarked to fund start up soccer programs within the district / council that served only neighborhoods OUTSIDE of our immediate area - instead of going to fund projects and upkeep at the local council camp (like had been used in years past) that would serve the entire council. Trouble is - its easy to get a kid to sign up. But if the child has a language barrier of any type, they are not likely to stick around. If their parents have a language barrier, they might fill out a biligual form, but they will not stick around very long. If the parent(s) do not have an SSN (or even if they do) they are not likely to fill out a leader application if they in any way suspect it could lead to them being looked at by authorities with regards to immigration status. If the family has little to no disposable income, then you either turn the unit into a fund raising machine to cover participation costs OR you skim funds from the "have" units and districts to the "have not" units / disctricts to subsidize the later - sorry folks scouting is not free. This is probably a tangent to another thread (one that has been discussed on here before), but if Mr. Mazzuca is looking for ways to increase the rosters - I'd suggest a repeal on the atheist and gay bans as a means to do greater good than to target hispanic youth with before / after school soccer programs. The repeal of those two policies would open the BSA up to many more youth, while at the same time making the BSA eligible for public land use and favored rental agreements once again. Additionally, it would better allign the BSA with widely held secular beliefs in non-discriminatory practices, thus reopenning the doors to many of the corporate donation $ that have dried up in the last decade due to some major corporations not wanting to touch BSA becuase of their admit policies. Youth leave scouting or do not join because of lack of ADVENTURE. How many scout camps have been closed or public lands no longer availible to BSA at greatly reduced rates or 100 year leases for $1/year because of this policy stance? My own council's offices are in a delapidated state b/c they sit on public land and the ongoing court battle of land use of a "discriminatory" policy in BSA. The Girl Scouts next door just remodeled two years ago and have fabulous accomodations, while the BSA looks like crap to the casual observer. If Austin would FIX that policy blunder - then they would have PLENTY of money freed up to court whatever minority group they want. However, I personally believe this does not allign with the conservative, Christian partnership BSA has with major religious organizations within the USA (namely the LDS and to a lesser extent the Catholic Church). Therefore, we are not likely to see a deviation from the set course anytime soon. The hispanic youth are a good target for Mazzuca, because if you bring them in with any significant numbers, it strengthens the overall tie with the Catholic Church, plain and simple. We have sections of the USA with extremely heavy Asian immigrant populations. Why not an extended effort to target asians into BSA? They are not represented in great numbers from what I have seen. However, asian families (while some are Christian) are more likely to be affiliated with either Buddist, Hindu and to a lesser extent Muslim faiths. BSA does not have (to my knowledge) any religious leaders from these faiths on their national governing board - the same cannot be said for LDS and Catholic faiths. I am not usually a conspiracy type guy, but the more I research and ask quesitons at the district and council levels, the more I've become convinced the push for hispanic youth is not only to drive membership numbers, but to also bolster support and relations between BSA national and the Catholic church.

OK - I'll be ready for the flames on this one, but here goes... 1) I am CM for a pack in southern California 2) We have many bilingual families in our pack (not just Spanish, but French, Tagalog, and Hindu) 3) We have several parents that speak Spanish, at least one of which is in uniform and ID'd as a Spansih Translator with a BSA translator tag. Other than that - we do not go out of our way to recruit or inhibit the participation of hispanic youth - we recruit youth from 3 different grade schools in the area, plain and simple. You are a boy at one of these schools (or live in the geographical area served by those schools) you are welcome to join our unit. 4) IMHO - the BSA's directive towards specific recruiting of hispantics is flat out racist and runs counter to what the BSA stands for. It is NOT inclusive - it makes a special exception / consideration for ONE ethnic group over another and diverts limited resources towards one group of youth that should be used to serve ALL youth regardless of skin color, language, or ethic background. What if this type of recruitment was directed at asians? Blacks? Italians? Pacific Islanders? in favor over other youth? God forbid BSA initiated a campaign to recruit white anglo-saxon protestant kids only - the organization would be crucified on CNN until the policy was changed. Yet they can do this for one ethic group and no one calls out the biogtry of the practice? The entire idea of hispanic, African-American, or other ethnic based units makes my stomache churn. As does LDS only units, or any other unit that affiliates with a church and restricts membership only to youth of that church (not sure if this happens outside LDS, but if it does - its WRONG). We can be inclusive, we can (and should) make people feel welcome and wanted, regardless of ethnicity, religion, or dare I say even sexual orientation? What we in BSA should NOT be doing is singling out a given subset of the youth we serve for any reason. It will only serve to alienate either that group or others who are not part of that subset. You don't need to tell them or do things for the hispanic youth because they (in general) have a higher incidence of multi-generational households, have parents that are working multiple jobs thus not being availible for leadership, or just plain have less disposable income to throw into extracuricular activies than some other youth. You could say the same for almost ANY other minority group in our country (and some of the white kids depending on what part of the country you live in). They don't need this pointed out to them, they already know it. They live it everyday. Is the motivation to increase the roster, or due to majority-guilt, or truely to reach out and help an underserved and often underprivledged subset of youth? Should we not be reaching out to ALL underserved populations then? Not just the one that is growing quickly and has been identified as an untapped reasource by BSA national? What they need is to be treated fairly (the same as everyone else, no better no worse) and be given a good environment to expirience what scouting has to offer. BSA national's direction on hispanic targeted recruitment is offensive, ill-conceived and just plain wrong - I hope they firgure this out soon and get back to the mission of serving ALL youth. I would applaud SeattlePioneer's OP - but after re-reading it, I cannot help but wonder if his unit actually puts into practice 1/2 the ideas he has outlined, what (if any) resources / time / volunteers are left to actually provide PROGRAM to their unit?

the older scout on the BOR was usually one that was pretty familiar with the scout in question. So, they also acted to attest to the accomplishments of the scout sitting for the BOR as well as posing questions to him. Sometimes it was another scout from their patrol, sometimes not - but always one you were friends with and never your PL or the SPL. SPL might have sat in, but just as an observer.

FWIW- I too recall having BOR's for the lower ranks (T-2-1) that consisted of 2 adluts (usually a Committee member or an ASM or both) and ONE later rank scout (Star, Life or Eagle). The BOR never had the SM or a family member (if involved w/ the troop) of the scout, but I had several BOR's with an ASM on it. I'm honestly not sure our unit would have had the volunteers to DO a good BOR if they didn't have it as part of ASM's duty. The older scout was a member of the BOR, but as I recall only asked questions and didn't really "have a vote" so to speak. It was not so much of a test out, than it was an assesment of how well you had learned and retained the knowledge and subject matter for the rank at hand. Very few things were a direct test out save maybe being asked to tie a certain knot, tell when to use a certain knot, or to recite from memory the oath or law. Most of the rest of the BOR was some thing like... "You had to camp out x number of nights for the camping MB you earned for this rank. Tell me where you camped and two things that were fun and two things you found difficult on those campouts?" It was more a tool for getting the scout to realize there was some learning that went on inside all the fun he has had while working on the rank. Then again - most of my advancement stuff was done outdoors while on campouts, resident camp, hiking, etc... hard to ask those types of questions if the majority of the unit's advancement is accomplished via merit badge university.

I'm with CRK on this one... Kelty, Kelty, Kelty.... good advice to go get it fitted and with weight. I got my son a Kelty Coyote 2 years ago. I like b/c its very versatile, top can be removed for use as day-pack, has water bladder compartment, has lower sleeping bag compartment, etc... MOST important feature: adjustable shoulder and hip belt to resize as he grows !!! Go try a few out at the local gear shop. If they don't have a weight, then use some gear in the shop. I had my son do 5 laps around the store with a 20 pound medicine ball from the weights department strapped inside the pack so he could get a feel for the pack with a load in it. When you are doing your "trial" run, pay particular attention to areas on the harness that pinch or rub and try to readjust to get rid of such points. If you cannot eliminate this problem, then try another pack. Anything that you can feel and annoys you a little on a 5-10 lap walk around the store will be a major source of pain in the field after 5 miles with a load on. My 2 cents....hope this is useful to you

Go with the CO on this one. As for the parents, behaps suggest they get together and fashion a nice big letter A the young girl could wear on her uniform for the durration of her "condition". While I understand not wanting to endorse her choice to pro-create out of wedlock, I stand firmly in the two wrongs don't make a right corner on this issue. If your CO is a religious organization - then I'd suggest a reminder about Jesus and the whole those without sin tossing the 1st stone passage. After that, let them make the decision. I guess I'm saying make your feelings known, but then be willing to fall in line with the ones responsible for the decision, even if its not what you would like to have seen done. While this issue has an immediate impact on your unit, it will likely be a non-issue in about 10-12 months time.

A very sad stroy and prayers for all involved, especially the scout and his family... A few items have jumped out at me from reading the OP, the replies, and other "wilderness survival" literature... 1) Be Prepared is more than a motto - it should be a way of life. Be prepared for the unknown, be prepared to alter your itinirary when adverse conditions present themselves. Be prepared for ill prepared youth. KNOW ahead of time what are the absolute rules... like don't split up, don't get seperated. 2) There is a fine line between pushing youth to exceed their own limitations and unneeded risk - as an adult we must ALWAYS err on the correct side. 3) Most tragic events are a summation of complacency plus a combination of multiple unexpected variables conspiring against you. In this story - the complacency is evident, then you add in the weather, the altitude, the level of prepardness of the participants = tragedy. So, HOW does one avoid becoming the statistic? Methods, best practices, rules of engagement (for lack of a better phrase). Even on small hikes with the cubs - we have a point person and a lag person... NO ONE - for NO REASON goes in front of the point or falls behind the lag - PERIOD. The hike leader literally counts out the people as we depart and counts them back in when we return. Along w/ buddy checks, we do random head counts at most rest points. ANY variation on count - the party stops until we verify we have everyone - no exceptions. I had a dad make light of this method on our last campout. My reply, "It worked for night hikes in the Jungle of Thialand when I was in the Army, it should work for cubs and their families. I haven't lost anyone in 4+ years of being a leader, and I'd like to keep it that way." Its not being paranoid - its part of being prepared. Luck favors the prepared and as one other poster has stated - fatalism is the handmaiden of complacency. There are check lists, there are go / no-go points, there are safety checks and rechecks. if you build these into your program, they become second nature. In porfessions other than scouting they are used ALL THE TIME. Why do you think they count instruments and sponges in the OR? They count in and count out - it helps reduce the chance that one gets stitched up inside a patient. Why to pilots have take-off and landing checklists? Same thing. When these stop gaps / checklists are ignored (or leaders fail to establish them to begin with) you get engineered disasters. You get Space Shuttles that blow up on take off because people who knew better let peer pressure to launch over-ride their judgement on a checkpoint. In Irag / Afgahnistan - it gets your buddies blown up by a IED because someone either forgot, was too tired, or just thought the incoming vehicle didn't "look" like a threat - so they failed to follow best practices. As much as a pain as it is... I'd rather sit in a meeting and discuss / establish checklists, do's & don'ts, and best practice models - than sit in a meeting later on and conduct a "root cause analysis". The OP story - the troop was doomed before they ever stepped off from the parking lot. Yes, someone along the way might have used some independent judgement to thrwart the outcome. But, without even considering such an action might need to happen ahead of time - they put themselves in grave peril and unfortunately paid a very heavy price because of it.

And besides - you can always use the shiny pop-tart wrapper as an emergency signal mirror.... what other food comes packaged in survival gear? Sorry for the confusion on the sheath knives - I was not putting them on the same level as alcohol or porn, just happened to mention them in the same sentence - sheesh !

And besides - you can always use the shiny pop-tart wrapper as an emergency signal mirror.... what other food comes packaged in survival gear? Sorry for the confusion on the sheath knives - I was not putting them on the same level as alcohol or porn, just happened to mention them in the same sentence - sheesh !

Just a thought - but WHY such a hatred for PopTarts? I know they are an easy, no cook meal, but if its only for ONE breakfast or a snack, I just don't see the issue. Do the units that ban PopTarts also forbid canned tuna or tuna packets? What about ANY type of freeze-dried backpacking food? One could make the same argument about these types of foods. What about cheese and crackers? When I was a scout - it was a novelty to bring canned sardines, mustard and crackers. Can they still vent a Dinty-Moore stew can and cook it directly on the coals? Not much prep / teamwork there, but I can remember doing this most every campout as a kid. Same thing with the iPods. I understand video games because they are HUGE distractions, but I can't imagine driving a carload of scouts to or from a campout with a constant argument / discussion about what type of music to listen to on the radio. I can't imagine being a scout and riding to a campout without my walkman, or having it to listen to after lights out. Unless they are constantly plugged in - daytime hours, not listening or participating, then I don't see a need to ban - yes restrict the time of use. Ban to me just seems like a CHALLENGE to a scout to try and sneak something. I'd save banning for the big no-no items: Alcohol, tobacco, non-folding shealth knives, porn, etc... Try to control the environment too much and it is no longer boy-led. Plus, you're almost asking for a rebellion of youth. Suggest items should not be used / brought and WHY... then see what happens. Do an after camp review and as part of it discuss what impact (if any) any items / foods had a negative impact on the overall quality of the campout - then let the scouts decide.

Let 'em have the sticks - just tell them the first one that hits a buddy gets his iPod, PSP, or DSi hit with the stick as well Works every time. Dean

Scoutfish- I would agree with you. Earlier this month at the range on our Pack Family Campout, the rangemaster had a good chuckle when my son and his buddy were complaining that there was a lot of "slack" in the trigger on the council owned BB-guns. This led to a discussion about trigger play, dead space, and trigger travel on the part of the boys. More advanced than I think the rangemaster expected out of a group of cubbies, but they were actually thinking about what causes them to be more or less accurate - line of sight, cheek weld, breathing, trigger squeeze vs. pull, and trigger slack. Its impressive how much more accurate a kid becomes once they start to THINK about these things when setting up a shot, versus just a point and pull mentallity. You have to understand that these 'guns' (using the term lightly despite the safety concerns), are handled by a LOT of kdis, and not being top of the line for most councils. Even then - a lad SHOULD be able to put 3 groups of 5 shots in the area of a quarter at 15 feet, which will earn them the belt loop and pin. Now, I doubt I could even hit a pop can at 30yrds with a council owned bb-gun. My son and most of his buddies that shoot with us on a monthly basis can pull that off with their little Daisy 880's. Then again, you get 880 fps velocity + higher quality BB's or pellets = much more accuracy. It would be nice if there was a step up between the Red Ridder BB's and a .22 cal at camp. But I also understand BSA's need to standardize for the sake of safety and cost containment. However, some very nice, very accurate air riffles can be had at fairly reasonable prices. A step in the right direction - our council range DID have brand new Jr. Compound Bows for use in archery this time around. I think the rangemasters might have dug into their own pockets to make that happen. The old recruves were terrible to have a kid learn on...

Correction on my previous post- I just looked up the G2SS online... you must have 1 adult CRP cert. for Safety Afloat. While not required for safe swim defense, it is RECOMMENDED that an adult be cert. in CPR. Not sure if that is a recent change or if I thought you needed CPR for both activities b/c I took the two trainings at the same time. Anyways - not quite sure WHY BSA would require it for watercraft use, but not for supervising boys that are actually swimming in the water?

Just a couple points of clarification: First, if you are talking about the BSA swim test as part of the Aquanaut pin for Webelos, then the DL is the one that signs off on Webelos rank advancement. As the den advancement person, if the DL says they passed it, then they passed it. However, just because a parent SAYS a kid did something does not mean the DL has to take their word for it. Unlike Tiger, Wolf, Bear - the Webelos program specifically states that the DL is the sign off authority for advancement. Can the DL take the parent's word? Yes. Should they? Maybe. Second, if you are going to do this as a den activity at a local community pool, a private pool, or a lake, there are a couple of things that should / must be in place in accordance with G2SS. 1) You need at least ONE (preferably more) adult that has taken Safe Swim Defense. Its online and takes about 10 minutes to do - no big deal. 2) The bigger deal: You need to be swiming at a location that HAS certified lifeguards (BSA, Red Cross, or otherwise) OR have at LEAST one adult supervising the group that has current CPR certification ! This is true ANYTIME anything is done on or in the water with a group of scouts. Swimming, boating, etc - must have either safe swim defence or safety afloat (depending on the activity) and either a certified lifeguard OR an adult with current CPR cert. Our Webelos Den completed aquanaut this past fall in a private backyard pool. I and one other leader both have safe swim defense, and I (plus another adult who is an EMT) both had current CPR certs at the time. So, as long as you are covering your bases with the properly trained adults - it is up to the DL to sign off on the advancement.

Depends on the part of the country you are in, or the time of year, but one our our favorites is to take small blacklight flashlights with us. The scorpions in our area will glow in the dark under UV light!