DeanRx

I just can't believe how some parents act / react to this event! As a father who HAS put in the time (both with my son and the PWD committee AND as a cubmaster) it saddens me. Yes, there are some adult built cars out there, BUT there are a LOT of sore loser parents who are quick to snipe behind the backs of others who help make their kids competitive. Sheesh! Yes, I HAVE (for 3 years now) been the one that hauls the track from the storage shed to the event. I have been the one to calibrate the software and make sure the track and software and laptop all talk to each other. My son has also done very well in the races (1st in his den the past 3 years and won the pack champion twice). He was 3rd last Sunday in his final race as a web II. I had TWO parents snark at me that he must do so well because I have the "track at my house". Well, the track is 46 ft long! I don't have a lot big enough to layout the entire track (even if I wanted to). I have two other dads come over the day before and test out the electronics and thats it. NO ONE ever gets a pre-race / test time. This year (as I have done in the past 2 years), I held TWO workshops in MY garage and let kids use MY tools and break MY saw blades and burn up MY dremel bits, so they could carve out fast cars. I had a handfull of kids show up. Guess what, al those kids were in the top 3 for their dens and many ran in the finals and placed well. In my book, is just as UNSCOUT like to be a snarky parent who doesn't help out and **** es about their kid getting beat, as it is to be the dad who won't let jr. touch his own car! My son plays baseball and soccer as well. The kid across the street has a batting cage in his backyard! My son doesn't cry and I don't **** when my son's batting average is well below the neighbor's kids every year in little league! He puts in the times and he reaps the reward. Get over it.

YOu mean you can't have sponsors for the PWD? That's how our cubs finance their cars!!! I got the monster energy drink going up against the Bud Light car this weekend at the races sponsored by BP patroleum. BP is a lttile leery though, cuse we won't allow gas powered engines in our PWD cars (yet)

" have always said, give me a boy that cares about others and with taught great organizational skills, I will teach him to be a great leader. Give me a boy that cares only about himself and with taught great organizational skills, I'll teach him to be a great bully" - from Stosh... well yeah, I'd agree with that, but then again if the boy already shows compassion for others and is well organized 90% of the work is already done! In my expirience (youth, military, private sector) - most if not ALL people (especially boys of age 11 to 15) start out in it for themselves. Humans by nature are a selfish animal. Outside of the central family unit, very few humans intrisically CARE about the wellbeing of others, especially when the are still children themselves. This is a trait that must be TAUGHT to them by parents / caregivers. Its exactly why my 4 y/o thinks nothing of slugging his brother full force when he doesn't get his way! I think the majority of our work as parents and as youth leaders in BSA revolves around the notion that we help awaken a youth's perception of others and how his actions influence other's behavoir and emotions. That's how they learn empathy. Two most often repeated phrases I use with my Webelos den... "Take care of your scouts" and "There is a HUGE differnce in being the bossy and being the boss". Its amazing to go from Tiger / Wolf den when the chosen DL for the meeting thought that meant he got to go first and boss everyone around, to Web II and the DL understands it is their JOB to make sure everyone else has a turn at the activity and has the resources to do the project BEFORE they get THEIR materials or their turn. That's when I know its sinking in and maybe I've done a decent job at the youth mentoring thing...

I don't know about it being "hostile" territory, but most likely ignorant and prejudiced territory (even if its not intentional). I can't speak to the Buddhist religion specifically, but I had a scout (now bridged to Boy Scouts and waiting for my son to catch up) in our unit that is Hindu. I don't know that it was a big deal for him or his family as he always just said "god" in the promise. His father and I are very good friends and he explained it to me as, "We know who we are and what we believe, but I also understand that I live in a 90+% judeo-christian place. Its do as the romans do as far as I'm concerned." They even had a CHRISTMAS TREE in their house this year! So, I guess it probably depends on the preferences of the individual family? It could be used as a good catalyst for conversations about different religions of the world, and mutual respect and tolerance towards those with belief systems different than your own. Never too early to start that type of thinking in the youth IMHO. A somewhat similar issue came up with a father who was a Canadian citizen to a boy in our unit. He brought to my attention that he didn't feel right pledging allegiance to the flag of a country he wasn't a citizen of.... I said, "OK, you can sit if you want, but I'd prefer you at least stand respectfully as it would be less noticable and less of a distraction." He was fine with that. I have no problem with a scout inserting their own deity in place of "god" in the scout promise. Not sure how that works with Buddhists if they have multiple gods, but they can figure out what works best for them. I think the over riding theme for both sides is: 1) Do whatever is most comfortable for the 'minority' religion without making an undue big deal out of it. 2) Use it as a learning opportunity for all involved. Bottom line, the scouts will follow the reaction of the adults in the situation, so have a discussion and decide what is best for all involved and then move on. The more you make of it, the more the scout is likely to feel like an outcast and the more likely other scouts are to pick up on it and, unfortunately, tease or pick on him about it. As for BSA regulation - the belief in 'god' phrase has always been interpreted as a "personal belief in a higher power, that to reach your full potential in life, one must understand they cannot to it on their own, they must have a faith in a power greater than themselves." or something to that effect... So, as to whether the boy can join, of course he can. Now, if the CO is a church or other religious affiliated organization, then I don't know if they can bar someone based on their religion or not. There's a HUGE difference between if they can and if the should, and I would hope they would NOT, but who knows... Heck, when I was a kid, I turned heads because I was a Catholic boy who joined the troop chartered to the Presbiterian Church! That was where I had the most friends! But I guess I was supposed to be in the troop over at the Knights of Cloumbus Hall. Whatever?

2Cubs... Then your sons had a "bad" PWD expirience, but had the opportunity to LEARN something much more important from it than the boy with a pro-built car will ever learn. Its a tough thing as a parent to watch your kid go through something like that. They likely won't realize the benefit for a long time to come, but some day they will. In a right and just world, the kid who puts in the most effort would win every time. Unfortunately, there's no such world, even in cub land. The only thing we as parents can do is teach our kids how to react appropriately to those types of situations. Best of luck and hope your PWD is an enjoyable one this year. Dean

I don't know about the 'born' part of a natural leader, other than it might infer that leadership traits tend to come easily for this person, hence they were "born" with it. For most people (youth included), I feel the label of 'natural born leader' or just 'natural leader' is a little misleading (pun intended). No one is born knowing how to provide leadership. Some might have figured it out faster than others, so they appear to be natural leaders. Some have charisma, attitude, influence be it due to age, physical stature, or self-confidence, or subject matter knowledge. But most of these things can be learned or grown into over time. I tend to fall back on my military training for things such as leadership. First look at the definition... best one I've ever found comes from the Cadet Manual ROTC, U.S. Army, "Leadership is the process of influencing others to accomplish a mission by providing purpose, direction and motivation." The mission = build a campsite Leader states purpose = so we have a place to cook and sleep, if we don't do it now, we loose daylight and we'll either be doing it in the dark, or we'll be out in the cold. Direction = Divides sub-tasks and assigns personel based upon ability and need, redirects as situation dictates. Motivation = can range from 'come on let's work together, so we won't be cold' to 'I don' want to be cold, so get the tent up, or I'll kick your butt!' What most 'natural leaders' posess is initiative, which I would argue is beter defined as self imposed motivation. You can't motivate others, if you yourself are not motivated and believe in the stated goal. I agree that most 'natural leaders' likely don't fit the ADULT mold of what we envision for a youth leader, because what we want to see in a leader is very different than what a youth wants to see in a leader. Most 'natural leaders' understand they can influence a group of their peers, but they probably don't understand HOW they are doing it, nor what direction is the best to be pursuing. That's why many may look like the outcast, the one with a chip on their shoulder, one likely to get in trouble for talking back or testing rules / boundries. Many "natural" leaders (both youth and adult) have a clear distain for being held back, told they can't or shouldn't do something, and are quick to dismiss rules and regulations they see as not being useful or beneficial to the goal they have in mind. Many 'natural leaders' are in fact very self-centered and quickly loose sight of the goal, instead concentrating on their own glory. Thats why I believe the goal of adults in BSA (particularly the upper years of Boy Scouts) should really concentrate on development of MATURE LEADERS. This is NOT managers, but leaders that have the foresight to figure all the angles before making a decision. One that can weigh risk vs. benefit in a situation and then act. One that can formulate the long term payoff vs. the short term gain. One that understands cutting a corner today may save time or money, but might cause one to loose face or worse endanger lives at a later time. Those are the types of leaders we should be trying to build in BSA. Its not easy to do. Trust me, they are in VERY short supply in today's world. Don't look to business or government to provide examples, you will find very few! Dare I say the world NEEDS leaders like this more than ever. If we had more LEADERS like this, our country (and most of the world) wouldn't be in the mess its in right now. Mold MATURE LEADERS out of the "natural born" ones.

He actually came in 4th in his den the following year, and then competed for the top 3 in the pack in his Bear year, so yeah it happens. Bottom line 99.9% of pinewood speed is due to wheels and axles. I have seen a block of wood, no paint, with 5oz of weight beat 99% of our pack field, becuase the scout and dad spent their entire effort on wheels, axles and getting them balanced, riding a rail and one front wheel off the ground. Did the dad do most of the thinking? Probably, but so long as they worked on it together... good for them. If they are running a pro-built car, then I guess the lesson that kid is learning is that dad will spend top $$ to get him in the game instead of a little time to develop his son's character. I don't disagree that it sucks whn it happens. But, at the end of the day - I am only responsible for the expirience MY son has. I also control HOW he learns to react to defeat (even an unfair defeat - those happen a lot in real life too, so get used to them boys....). PWD is really when DO YOUR BEST comes into play. I see no difference in a family buying a pro-built car in PWD and the family who signs off on Jr.'s advancement acheivements, even though when you TALK with the scout in the den meetings its easily found out he doesn't know his skills. I KNOW when my son gets an achievement signed off, he KNOWS the material - or I don't sign it off. Yes, we've had discussions about fairness and WHY some kids seem to make WEB pins and rank faster and easier than others. But unless, BSA allows for a cubmaster conference on ranks, if the parent signs off, then the kid did it! It doesn't cheapen the fact that the scout that actually DOES THE WORK, EARNED their recognition. I see PWD much the same way, b/c if you don't, I guess you end up with parents punching each other over the race ?!?!? If you feel that strongly about it, then don't have your cub participate. There is really NO way to tell if an axle has been machined without pulling the wheel off. Doing so would likely harm the alignment of the car, so in checking, you are wrecking the kid's work. Now, you can eyeball, or use a dial caliper to check diameter and thickness of wheels. Most of the time the amount of wheel machining needed to add advantage is easily seen. If there is EVER a question, we have a 3 person panel at the check-in (chosen in advance) - they each independently give a 'go' or 'no go'to the car in question. It states in no uncertain terms that their decision is FINAL. If its a NO-GO, then the car can run in the super unlimited and can get votes for the cub choice, but will not run for cub-only division and cannot go on to represent the pack at the council race. In 4 years (this being the 5th this weekend) of helping with and running PWD for the pack, I can remember ONCE having to tell a scout his car can't run in the cub division. He and his dad had machined the wheels into thin rimmed disks (clearly in violation on our pack rules sheet). The kid was disappointed, so we told him (we have backup wheels that hae been sanded) he could use backup wheels (i.e. pull him and replace), or just run in super unlimited. As I recall, he ran in unlimited and took a prize in the scout's own voting.

OGE- I think mentoring the boys is a LOT like managing a workforce. You use leadership opportunities to let the youth "try on" being a leader and then guide them to a role that fits them best. Example: Say a kid is not that outgoing and doesn't like to speak up, but is very organized and neat in the way he keeps his personal stuff. Well, try to coax him out of his shell by putting him in a small leadership role (i.e. leading ONE activity on a campout - like a hike), but then approach him and tell him you noticed his good organization skills... maybe he'd make a great quartermaster for your unit. Have a kid that is great on computers, then he's a good fit for running / helping with the Troop website, etc... Play to a kid's strengths to build their confidence, then use that confidence to encourage them to try on new "hats" or leadership roles so to speak. Another great way to help develop leadership is to run mini-low cope type events at a campout and draw a leader from a hat just prior to the event. This is a tactic used in ROTC all the time with squad level leadership development... everyone in the day will be a leader and a follower. Have an imaginary "river" between two rows of trees they have to cross and give the scouts 4 sections of 2x4 (none long enough to span by itself), they can lay the boards in the "water" and can have as many scouts on each board as they want, but they must get everyone across. Then time it. Or, set up a geocache or other orienteering obstacle, but one boy in charge and time them for how long it takes them to complete the task, etc... All these types of activities grow leadership in small increments. Finally, ALWAYS have a quick debrief (ups and downs) have the leader (with input for the followers) give 3 things that went well in the event and 3 things they would have done differently if they have a redo... this way EVERYONE learns, even when they are not the leader. my 2-cents worth... Dean

1) Smor's .... can't believe no one put this on their list yet. 2) Seeing a kid catch their 1st fish ever... 3) Being out on a cear night and having the kids in the unit be AMAZED by how bright the stars and moon are wen you get away from the light polution of the city. 4) Sitting by a brook or stream and having the only two sounds be the sound of the water and your own breathing. I would put lightning bugs on here, but we don't have them out west. Used to catch them as a kid in Nebraska and many a night we'd put 5 or 6 in a ziplock bag and hang it inside the roof of our tent as a "nightlight".

mom2cubs - I can certainly understand your feelings on the issue, However a few observations... 1) How do you KNOW its an adult built car? My son won the pack champion in his Tiger year. I showed, then guided, and finally encouraged (sounds like EDGE method to me) him to diligently grind and then polish the axles, showed him what the axle straighting die was for and how to use it, and how to wet sand the "pips" on the running surface of his wheels. I helped a little, but HE did the majority of it. WHY? should he not have won? He put in 3+ hours for 3 different nights into that car. I could hardly get my work clothes off before he was hauling me into the garage every night that week. I'd go so far as to say its the greatest amount of effort and concentration the boy had ever put into one outcome in his small 1st grade life... that cannot be a BAD thing. I'm sure some people thought it was a "dad" built car, but I'm not going to feel bad about it. My son put a LOT of work into that car and reaped the rewards. We have ALWAYS had an open garage and share any speed tips we know of. Everything I learned, I read for free of the internet, its there for anybody to get. Secondly, sorry to break it to everyone, but just because a kid puts his "heart and soul" into a car doesn't mean he's going to win. Life doesn't work like that and contrary to most everything these kids do at school, church youth group, and most sports leagues anymore - not everyone wins a trophy every time. The sooner our youth learn that, the better it will serve them in life. Seems to me some parents are quick to jump on the "dad built it for him" bandwagon instead of thinking, "Hmmm he / they designed a really great car and we could learn alot from them, we better up our game next year if we want the big trophy." Nope. Just easier to cry I didn't have the info spoon-fed, I didn't have the same tools, we didn't know. Guess what, other than racing PWD 20+ years ago, I had no special skills or info prior to my son's first race. I am not an engineer, I'm in the medical field. But we worked together to go find and then impliment the "tips" to build the fastest car we could. I thought that was what 'competition' is all about? Now, with all that said - I DO share all and any info with anyone interested enough to ask. Also, we go all out on awards for PWD, giving a throphy for 1,2,3 in the pack & a trophy for 1st in each den, plus a medal for 2nd and 3rd in each den. That way its reasonable that a kid who puts a decent amount of effort into his car will likely go home with some hardware. As for a laundry list of rules... we go with what our council publishes, because if the pack champ car doesn't meet these specs, then it can't race at the council wide race in April at the scout fair. Basement.... 0.01 of an ounce is actually 0.28 grams or 280mg... its actually quite a bit of weight and would not pass the weigh in test at our pack's meet (then again it wouldn't past muster at the council event either). The unit should invest in a scale that can weigh in tenths or hundreths of a gram. $40-$50 of unit funds will get a decent scale. Meschen - WHY on earth would you impound the axles and wheels until the night of and then randomly hand them out? Then there is absolutely NO skill involved. The axles out of the box are nails, they have spurs on them to grip wood that cause friction. Some have very fine spurs, some have very large spurs, so the cub with a lousy draw will no doubt loose.... its a crap shoot! You might as well not even run the cars and just have the boys throw dice for who gets 1st, 2nd, 3rd ?!?!? I understand wanting to tone down "adult built" cars, but random drawing of wheels / axles with no work allowed on them is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Now, anyone coming to punches over the PWD... well - that's just nutty and speaks more to the mental state of the "adults" (term used loosely in this case) than the stress of the event.... sheesh!

"adult Scout Leaders usually start out thinking like a parent and gradually learn how to think like guide or mentor. " Probably one of the best statements I've ever seen on this board!

#1) Have workshops... get the previous year(s) winners to help run them. Then the "secrets" are out there for everyone. You come take advantage and learn, or you don't, but can't complain about it. #2) If a dad wants to build the kids car, its going to happen. We try to have discussions about "fairness" and kids having hands on time with the wood, but again levels of skill vary greatly in both youth and adults. #3) We always give a trophy for "Scout's Own Vote". No judges, every boy that races can case a vote for their favorite car. Only rule, you can't vote for yourself. You want to win this category, you need not be fast... just better have a Pokemon, Super Mario Bros., or Angry Bird theme on your racer this year #4) We have two categories... ONE - scouts, by the book, 141.75grams, 7 inches max length, etc... and TWO - super unlimited modified. Only scouts can be in group ONE, both scouts and parents, siblings, etc... can be in group TWO. It makes for some great concept cars. One guy showed up with a racer with a 9volt battery and a CPU cooling fan zip tied to the rear for the car. It had a slenoid switch that was held closed by the starting gate pin and when released, the battery wizzed the fan and it FLEW down the track! Best part was when it jumped the stopping area and went out the door of the auditorium and crashing down the hallway! Best derby memory for the whole pack! BOTTOM line - if they have fun doing it together and the kid at least puts some effort into it, then great. I have one dad that owns his own machine shop. His wolf aged boy KNOWS how to run a mini-lathe. How are you supposed to tell the kid he can't machine his axles when it was HIS idea to do so? Is it unfair? maybe. But is it unfair that some boys have dads and others don't? Yup. Does that mean the boys with fathers should not be allowed to have dad help because some of the kids they will race against come from single parent families? Nope. I have ONE kid in the pack and I helped SIX boys cut out car shapes on the scroll saw and sand and polish wheels and axles over the past two weekends. My son is a WEB II - other than helping get the sawblade installed on the scroll saw, he has done the entire car himself, shape, sand, paint polish, tap axle holes with drill press, sand and polish wheels / axles. I have literally not touched his car this year... first time ever. I'm a fairly competitive dad with regards to PWD and we share all our speed secrets. I hope my son smokes the field, but it doesn't really matter - he's already won first place with me and I've told him so. That's what PWD should be. Then again, if he beats the kid who's dad has the machine shop... there will be a HUGE grin on my face

yeah, you improve MBU's by not having them!

Are we living up to the Congressional Charter? Well, I'd say that depends on the local unit and how they run it. Is it boy-led? Does it involve the outdoors? Does it teach self-reliance? or is it a classroom merit badge mill led by helicopter parents? Not sure how a national charter, the national office, or even the local council offices can influence that too much, other than explicit approval / banning of certain activities or changing requirements (queue spin-off thread here)... Ask anyone with a gay in their family or an athiest / agnostic if BSA has lived up to their congressional charter and I bet I know their answer...all men are created equal - except for the one "private" organization that is chartered by our national government that is ALLOWED to be prejudiced, etc... Are we guilty of breaking the law? On a couple notes, I'd say yes - FIRST, the afore mentioned gays and atheist issue. Still not sure how BSA continues to get around this one when they exist at the charter of the US government. I'm not a big fan of either lifestyle choice, but I fully respect other people's right to live that way - kinda a concerstone ideal of our entire country IMHO. SECOND, is a tad more vague (but likely more directly relevant to the boys in the units) is scoutcraft vs. classroom (or Green Bar Bill vs. Woodbadge if you will). Be it from litigation (or fear thereof), the "eveyone must feel good about themselves", etc... many of the things enjoyed 1 generation ago is no longer allowed in BSA. The most glaring example is no youth led camping without adults (canned b/c of fear of litigation from injury and no doubt hazing). But this has also expanded into most units / councils not even allowing boy-led day hikes and watered down pioneering structures. Don't get me started on the revamping of Tap-Outs for OA... the list continues... we have probably missed the spirit of the charter in favor of staying out of court. Not sure if that qualifies as breaking the law or not? As I reside in a council that is in the process of loosing their 100 year lease of public park space (Camp Balboa) because national decided that digging heels in on the gay/atheist issue is more important than good program locations for boys.... and I am now being asked at roundtables to contribute to a capital campaign, not to buy new campland, but to purchase new OFFICE SPACE in dowtown San Diego to house the council once they are kicked out of Balboa (yeah! classrooms!) - I'd say my local counil has missed the mark on meeting the goal(s) of the national charter. THIRD - Not quite sure HOW BSA has been able to hold up in court the rank structure and badges as trademarked items. They have successfully litigated numerous times to KILL or severly curtail other start-up BSA like programs (that may have more tolerant views on membership) by holding onto their rank items and in some instances symbols of their rank items (i.e. an eagle) as copyrighted items of its program. Funny, BSA doesn't sue the US government for using an eagle on its money and national seal?, but it works against other youth organizations. Those are 3 main instances I can think of, but BSA has always had the clout, politcal connections, money (or a combination thereof) to have the courts come down on their side on these issues. Does it make it right? I don't know? Are some laws on the books outdated? yes, but I personally LOVE the ones from the previous poster regarding Kenesaw, GA.... I might have to move there someday Finally, Eamonn asks if its even relevant to 21st century kids today? I say yes, moreso than ever. People vote with their feet and their pocketbooks. Only time will tell if BSA continues to provide a program that engages youth of the 21st century. I for one personally struggle with teaching scouts about citizenship when the organization does not allow for equal treatment and access for all citizens. I have a hard time teaching bullying is wrong when our own national office bullies some of the subsets of youth that could use our guidance most. I have a hard time teaching about fairness, compassion, empathy when these are in short supply from our paid scouters and policy. I think BSA still does more good than harm, but I fear as an organization it is FAR off the path Baden Powell has envisioned and the path dreamnt of by the congress in 1916 that gave us our charter. I hope some changes are made within my lifetime to correct the course we are on so that my son is not 40 years old telling his sons, "Boy, I wish scouting was still around.... I had such a good time, I wish you could have done it too..." I truely fear the next 3 decades may find the end of scouting in the USA. We need to learn to change to meet new societal norms, we need to learn to be co-ed, we need to learn to be religous AND tolerant at the same time, we need to TEACH our boys and then TRUST them to lead (even if its not perfect and if someone gets their feelings hurt sometimes). Then we will have returned to true scoutcraft.

I'd be willing to bet that even if National wanted to use a US supplier, they would have a hard time finding ANYONE that is still making clothes stateside - regardless of price. That said, when manufacture moved offshore and the price remains the same (or goes up) the perception from most is a decrease in quality with a steady or increase in cost equals an overall decrease in VALUE. I don't care if they make the stuff on the moon, just give me shirts with reinforced elbows, pants with reinforced knees and crotch seams... the fact that both my boys can wear out a uni before they OUTGROW it is frustrating !!!! If they are going to expect boys to wear these uni's in the outdoors - they need to be built for the outdoors!!!

Well.... there goes the whole beer garden funraising idea out the window now.... just kidding. I say you've already stated your case to the DE and you're not in the unit any longer, let it go. Unless its a slosh-fest and the adults are not about to be responsible, but then again - you have this info 3rd party, so how do you know? I have made adult beverages availible to ADULTS at adults only committee meetings, held at a private residence (not BSA property). We discuss the pack business, then have a BBQ, a few folks have a beer or a glass of wine. I don't believe this is in contrast to BSA policy. In fact, I have been to district dinners hosted at the local ELKS lodge where Boy Scouts acted as waiters and buss boys. The bar was open for cocktail hour prior to and after the "offical" dinner. Now again, this was NOT on BSA property, but is was a BSA function with scouts in attendance. DE and SE were both at this event. I understand bringing booze toa BSA camp is a big no-no, but on a unit campout in a state or federal park where it is legal?!?!? I say its common sense. I have organized over 15 campouts for my unit in th pst 6 years, I quote the BSA policy, but if I don't see it and a family has beer in their personal cooler to enjoy post-scout campfire in a "red solo cup", I don't exactly go around playing the role of beer fuzz. Hell in my book, anone that works with 40+ kids all day probably DESERVES a tall cold one after they are all in their tents. I know not everyone would agree, but so be it - thats why if its done, its done extremely low key and not in fron of scouts. My alcohol policy is more aligned w/ the tobbacco use policy for adults. Your milage may vary. Dean P.S. I was recruited to serve my 3 year term as CM over a cold one at a campfire... (non scout camp - but a campout with many scout families attending)

I don't know about gifting a fire starting kit... I think I'd leave that determination up to the parent(s), much the same at pocket knifes or BB-guns (or other guns for that matter). As for him being taught he skills, then he needs to re-learn the lesson. As for the mom - she is responsible for her son on his own time. He might have LEARNED the techniques from scouting, but is obviously misusing them since he did not have a parent's permission, nor adult supervision. This mom is going to FLIP once he gets to Jr. High and has health class... what if he starts USING his new knowledge to expiriment with / impregnant girls? After all, he learned it from the school, must be the schools' fault. If she wants to pull him from scouts, there's little you can do about it - but its not your fault (assuming the firestarting class was taught properly with emphasis on permission & safety first!) Dean

To me the arguement of, "For the boys..." whether in it for them or not in it for them is a trump card of sorts that some folks like to use to justify their position and not have to listen or debate an opposing position on the merits of said position. Its kind of like calling someone a racist. Once you go there, you have effectively stated that YOUR opinion is better on moral grounds and teh other's opinion is mute based on the fact that it is based on an inherent, amoral bias.... therefore, you win and you don't have to justify your own stance any longer. "You're not in it for the boys" is the same as being told your racist, bigotted, chauvenistic (sp?), etc... I've had a parent tell me I wasn't in it "for the boys" because I 'borrowed' two 6ft tables and an easy-up the pack owns for a non-pack function (a party) at my house. Gee, I thought maybe since I've been storing them for the pack free of charge for 3 years and maintaining them for the pack - I might get to use them once in awhile, but I guess not.... I usually figure if you show up and are volunteering you are in it "for the boys".... now, the whole PAID employee issue (DE on up in council) becomes a very different matter when your PAY is tied to fundraising and numbers.

1) Trip planning meeting is open to anyone... you got a special diet need / restriction... then show up and help plan the meals. 2) If its a true allergy - then the scout needs to carry and be responsible for their Epi-Pen. This is NOT a duty that can be delegated. Otherwise, Its like expecting someone else to put your seatbelt on you when you get in a car. Make sure at least THREE people on the trip (other than the allergic person) knows what an Epi-Pen is for, how to administer it, and lastly what to do AFTER you've had to use it.... The Epi saves the life immediately, the follow up care keeps them from dying later that day / night. If Epi is used - you go to the ER plain and simple. 3) Any other special restriction diet other than a true allergy, I have no time nor need to concern myself with. I don't get paid to help plan, do food buy, cook, etc... You have some special thing you either can't have or can't live without. FINE. Good for you. Bring your own food and cook along side everyone else. The idea you have to try to accomodate every whim is bunk and you'll drive yourself crazy trying. I had a mom on a campout pitch a fit because we expected her to use the same campfire we had for her Kosher hotdogs. Its a gate over an open flame... HOW does that possibly contaminate the WHOLE grill? I told her I'd be happy to pull some coals off to the side and scrub the grill a little with steel wool to clean it off. Otherwise, she could cook her dogs in water on the campstove or on a stick over a campstove flame. I'll try to accomodate as best as the situation allows, but I'm not going to loose sleep over it... too many other things to think about on a campout to dwell on one person's special cooking needs. They'll either adapt, step up and lead, or not come - their choice.

OK- So, I am the CM for a fairly active pack of about 40 boys. Been CM for 3 years now after a 1 yr stint as Tiger DL. I've been actively "looking" for my replacement for about 1 year. I have a very good freind of mine (Bear DL) who has two boys in the pack, one a Bear, the other a Tiger this year. Mine son is a WebI and will likely be ready to bridge by early 2012 as the den will all be finished with AOL by then. I had another dad in the Tiger den approach me about being the next CM for the pack. He is a level headed guy and other than being a bit quiet, will do a good job. In talking with the Bear DL, he states," Are you sure He's going to be OK? He's quiet, etc..." and goes on to tell me that there have been meeting time issues in the past due to this guy's work schedule. I'm probably a bit sensitive on the subject, but at this I replied (not very scouty) that, "Well, there wasn't really a huge f'ing candidate pool to draw from adn I've been looking for someone to VOLUNTEER for a year now." Must be time for me to take a break from leadership, B/C I'm sick of working to find leaders, then have others (who didn't step up into a larger role) question my "choice" of my replacement! Its not like this job pays 100K a year with benefits and I have multiple resumes on Monster.com to pour over. This is the ONLY guy that even took on the challenge to put his name in the hat, we haven't even transitioned and I have a DL questioning if he's the right guy for the job ?!?!? Can't wait until my boy ages out and I can hang back as a "helper" ASM for awhile... I just want the pack to do well, as I have a younger boy coming up in 2 years and I'd rather not re-invent the unit from the ground up for him - I'd like to see a healthy functioning pack still in place, but I have my worries - based on the second-guessing already taking place amongst adult leaders. Sorry for the rant, but I don't get paid enough to put up with crap like this... so tired of no / little input until a decision is made, then everyone wants to debate the merits of the selection. What have you done / or how have any of you approached this type of situation in the past? Dean

oh come on now... everyone KNOWS the plural of Webelos is Webeli. Besides - if national would just hurry up and compact in into a 1 year program, there would be no need to diferetiate between the two, kids wouldn't burn out and we would likely retain more kids into BOY SCOUTS.... Consider the thread offically hijacked

Patrol campout... we all showed up with our gear, the patrol box, the food, mess kits, etc... Just finish cooking the first night's meal and getting ready to serve our chili and cornbread when we discover the patrol box was missing ALL silverware and everyone expected it to be there, so noone packed any in their mess kits. (It was later found out that a rival patrol had sabotaged our box prior to the campout!) So, we end up "drinking" the chili out of cups. A couple guys try to eat it out of a ladle, one other guy uses a HUGE serving spoon. 1st order of business the next morning... as 1/2 the patrol cooked breakfast, the other guys found pieces of bark off a fallen oak tree and hastily used their pocketknife skills to fashion forks and spoons for us to use the rest of the weekend. After that - it became a patrol tradition to "whittle" your own untensils for a campout. BTW - we took the other patrol's frying pan and coffee pot out of their patrol box before the next campout

enigineer- You'll get some howling the first couple months, because they are being held to a stardard they were not used to before. You just calmly explain that because of the size of the unit and the lead time needed to procure and process awards, the deadline has to be firm. It would be nice if the SM and committee would back the AC on this, but if not - then maybe the SM and committee should be told to go find themselves a new AC, one that will allow such abuse of their time and talents. One of my Father's favorite sayings when I was growing up... "Lack of planning on your part, does not constitue an emergency on my part." Sounds like that applies in this case.

Personally, I like them diced with geoduck and folded into a Doo-Doo bird two egg omlete -- YUM !!! Do you store the grid squares in the quartermaster's shed, right next to the fallopian tubes? Fallopian tubes are great for float trips in the summer time, or pool movie nights at council camp! But, according to G2SS, they should not be used as a PFD. Plus, I think they're on backorder from national right now...

It all boils down to a price point / marketing / perception of value issue. The Girl Scouts have a GREAT product that is perceived as a good value at a price point that 90% of people asked to buy will not think twice about throwing a few dollars towards. Anything that an average adult thinks is good for youth, they'll give $5 or less towards without thinking - the fact they get some good tasting cookies (even if in a small package) is just a bonus. On the other hand... BSA has a high price point on a product that on the surface does not seem to be a very good value. The entry price point of $10 gives many people pause... you get into double digits and people start to think with their heads instead of their hearts. Its much, much easier to get ten people to give $1 a piece to a good cause, than to get one person to give $10 to the same cause. Entry price of $10 also causes problems with cash transactions. People carry ones, fives, and twenty dollar bills. If you have to part with a $20 (even if getting change in return), people stop and THINK about the transaction. If they can pay fast and easy with four $1's or a $5, they don't think twice about spending it. I go to the grocery store... walk the cookie isle... almost every box or bag of cookies will run me $4 - $6 dollars. There are no Thin Mints or Samoas to be found... only from the girl scouts selling them outside - at roughly the same price as the store, maybe a 50% increase. I go to the same grocery store... walk the snack isle... a box of Crunch-n-Munch costs me $2.95 and a 10-pack of whatever flavor microwave Pop-Secret costs me about $6-$8 depending on flavor. If you're willing to go with store brand, that 10-pack of microwavw just dropped below $5 a box. Yet, we expect folks to pay $15 for the same thing right outside the store ?!?!? That's a 100% - 150% increase in price for something with no unique value above what they can already get at the store ?!?! This equals a PERCEPTION of POOR VALUE on the part of the consumer and is a huge hurdle to overcome to close the sale. We've always had success with popcorn sales, but I am amazed that we do so well. Getting rid of the tins and having larger bags helped this year. Last year, I was embarrased and ashamed to see scouts handing over that tiny tin of caramel corn for a $10 cost. I would have felt better had the boys just been asking for a straight up donation. Bottom line - get a better product (one that the consumer can't get at any supermarket in the country) and set it at a price point around $5. Better yet, have several items at that same price point and make it EASY for your customer to spend their money. Don't know if there is a marketing merit badge, but BSA could learn a few tricks from some elementary marketing and retailing concepts.