DeanRx

BSA post LDS... Not soon enough was my first reaction! Look my beef with the LDS is the fact that THEY already are practicing a local option with the blessing of BSA national. They have adjustments to program, adjustments to leader requirements (all male), they only go to summer cmap in group blocks, etc... Whats good for them should be good for everyone else. period. However, that's not the case because BSA make the willing decision in the 1980's to be kidnapped by the LDS (and to a lesser extent the RC church) to hold on to "ideals" that at the time the majority of society endorsed. Remember Regan's AIDS is a plauge and no federal funding for research, etc... Well, things have shifted in societies view, but the doctrine (not surprisingly) of the LDS and RC has remainded steadfast. The question is HOW does BSA unlock itself from its controlling CO's (they control FOS / donations, program policy, and to a certain extent national exec. boards). I don't know the history, but I bet BSA has been through this before... Back in the 1940-50's, most units were segregated not just by religious lines, but also ethnic ones. Can you imagine the worry and hand-wringing that went on by the adults at the time is black, white, and hispanic kids were expected to be in the same units ?!?!? BSA weathered that storm and adapted to changing social norms in the 1960-1970's... not reason to think its any different today. The sooner BSA removes barriers to ALL youth participation, the sooner it will see itself flourish instead of wither. I say at a minimum local option inclusive. Inclusive for gays, atheists, and FEMALES! Quite frankly, our program is better and more rigorous than GSUSA. We let females in, we can put GSUSA out of business in less than a decade! My sister wanted in when we were youth and had to settle for sewing and selling thin mints. I know of 4 girls in my cul-de-sac who ALL want to go on scout outings with my son and his friends in the neighborhood (all of them shun Girl Scouts b/c its too "wimpy" - their word, not mine). A couple participate in Indian Guides and LOVE it, but say they would really like a better advancement system and one that carries the weight of the BSA program to the outside world. No one cares if you put "highest Indian Guide rank" on a college application. No one knows what the hell it is! You put down that you're an Eagle scout, the general public knows what that means... its brand recognition. Can you imagine the race to be the first female Eagle? What a PR bonanza for BSA! Get Gabby Giffords or Condie Rice to present the first batch of Eagles to the girls that earn them. From page grade A PR for BSA. The same would be noted for the 1st openly gay Eagle. Get the Star Trek guy to present it to the youth. Its would mean a LOT to those who care about such things and would go a LONG way towards burying the hatchet on years of BSA prejudice. Hope I see the day while I'm still an active scouter... at a minimum, I bet my son will see it happen in his lifetime. It would be a kick if my son had daughters and I could see them enjoy the challenges of scouting with their father the same way he and I enjoy them now.

Well, had a nice pint with my buddy (the SM). The beer was good and the conversation better. He took over 9 months ago amid an issue that had the CO and COR mandating that the current SM and an ASM take a "hiatus" from direct interaction with the youth.... Hmmm, I'll leave that one alone for now, but lets just say the compass of morally straight lost its bearing for a couple of leaders. So, dear friend takes over and is trying to right the ship. Every single issue I brought up, he is aware of and is actively trying to "fix". His main two issues: 1) an old 'culture' for lack of a better term in which NSP's were and have been put through the wringer just because they could be. 2) Plenty of "camping dads", but very few if any that wanted to step up and put on a shirt as an ASM to fill the void left with the untimely departure of the previous SM and one ASM. The guy in charge of the base camp, I come to find out IS on the committee as a parent, but is NOT registered as an ASM and has NOT been trained as such other than to complete YPG. I'll give the guy a break as he was doing the best he could with his background and what he knew. The guy (I assumed ASM) that I kicked in the butt to do the totin' chip after he agreed to for the NSP is the ousted-pre-SM and this was his first outing back with the unit since the departure. Needless to say, his attitude was less than scoutlike, and my personal opinion is his time with the unit needs to come to a close ASAP!!! I since learned (at the troop meeting last night) that he took away a scout's Totin' chip in the parking lot of the CO post campout on Sunday without explaining to the scout WHY, and he refused to sign off on a 1st class scouts requirement to "visit with an elected offical...." because the boy didn't have a letter or business card PROVING he had done the visit! That to me is adding to the requirement! This guy just likes to make kids jump through hoops because he can and its a power trip. Trouble is, this has trickled down to the senior scout's attitude towards the younger boys. Lots of, "I outrank you, so you need to x,y,z... for me..." Current SM had a skit at last nights meeting regarding "pulling rank" and informed all in attendance that the ONLY scouts allowed to tell another scout what to do was a green bar and only in their capacity as a PL, ASPL, or SPL. He stated in no uncertain terms that ANY other scout heard or seen pulling rank by ANYONE is subject to immediate SM conference and potential discipline action. So.... a step in the right direction... Additionally, I was asked by the SM to put in my application with the unit to be an ASM. Did that last night. I agrees and think if I'm going to bring up the problems, I should put my $ where my mouth is and become part of the solution. SM's vision and mine are the same... get some of these "camping dads" off the sidelines and get them to commit as ASM's with the purpose being each patrol / PL will have ONE ASM per term as their patrol advisor. The SM will be the patorl advisor to the SPL and ASPL. It is still the patrol method, but with a specific coach / mentor the scouts in a leadership position can rely on for advice and an adult that can do spot checks on progress, safety, advancement on unit outings. As the SM stated to me, "Youth led, doesn't mean youth abandoned." Which I agree with. he is just trying to overcome an old guard's mentality that had parents on campouts told specifically that is they were not the Sm or ASM, they could not be in a patrol's area or speak to the scouts, other than the SPL. Its was a very hands off environment. The new goal is Patrol method with oversight and mentoring, while allowing the youth to still lead and make the final decisions in the unit. Not sure what I just got myself into, but at least it will be an adventure! dean

Just to clarify, I did not at anytime, address any issue directly with the PL. I addressed it with pls dad, who happened to be on the campout & is registered as an adult leader... He's the troop treasurer. I only addressed the advancement issue AFTER my son had been dismissed twice with his request for inspection. Thanks for the feedback, will be having a discussion w SM tonight.

A couple things need to happen... 1) You appoligize to son for putting him in that position. 2) If the ASM is truely sorry for his actions, then the apology should be in public, as the offense was public as well. Can stand when folks in a leadership position screw up publically, then try to "own" it by making it right in private. Man up and say you're sorry in front of the scouts. Thats a HUGE lesson for everyone to learn.

Well the follow up... Survived and as a whole the campout was good. NSP worked well as a team (for the most part) and scouts were successful in completing many advancement requirements for TF and a couple items for 2nd class and one for 1st class. That being said - I am asking for a meeting with the SM to sort out some things. 1) SM was gone all weekend with older boys on a Trek (dropped off AM on Sat and picked up Sun PM), a committee member was left in charge of base camp. Not much adult leadership other than making sure the scouts didn't kill each other. 2) Had to intervene 3 times on son's behalf because he asked his PL to sign off on TF requirement of "present yourself dressed for a cmapout with all gear....". Showed up to depart location early, son asked, was told... No, were too busy now. OK, so he asked on Saturday (got to camp Fri at 9pm - late start for many reasons, mostly disorganization) he was told "No, you have to be in uniform (BSA scout shirt, not t-shirt) for the requirement." Ok, but requirement states "Dressed for a campout", not dressing in uniform for a campout. I finally spoke with PL's dad on the side and stated this needed to be done Sunday AM (kids would have uniforms on for flag ceremony). Son went on one campout previously last month (PL was not in attendance) so he asked comm. member (same one that was "in charge" this time) to sign off then. Got told same thing... we're too busy getting going, you'll have to get it signed off next time. Well, if I hadn't had the chat with PL's father, the "next time" would have been "we're too busy to sign off on your requirement" again 3) Son and two others in his Patrol got sick to stomache Saturday mid-day. I finally stuck my nose into their patrol area Saturday PM offering to help son and fellow scout (both of whom who had barfed earlier in the day) with their KP duties and found raw egg and egg shells from breakfast still on their patrol table and around the patrol box. I'm all for scouts leading scouts and needing to struggle a little to learn, but PL, ASPL, SPL or any "offical" adult leader in attendance had not checked on this patrol close enough to figure out they were having food safety issues in their patrol! 4) Son and friend stuck on KP (even when ill) while all others in camp gathered 50 yards away for campfire. I went over to help them out and found them trying to scrub pan w/ cooked on cheese with hot water and paper towel. "you guys got any soap?", "Nope, we ran out...", "You got a SOS pad?" "Nope, they didn't give us one." I go over to adult patrol box and get them the tools needed to do the job. PL, ASPL, SPL, adult leader - NONE checked on them - would have let them go on through entire campfire struggling! I had to have a talk with my son after we returned, because he was not helping his patrol mates clean up from b-fast this morning... his response was "well nobody but YOU helped me and XXXXX last night, why should I help them? Its their turn!" So.... this is the "leadership" we are teaching? Had a long talk w/ dear son about doing what is right, even when others do not. 5) This AM after flags, b-fast, and scouts own... ASM offers to NSP that if they get their patrol area all broken down and policed by 9:30, he would teach Totin' Chip to the new guys. ASM then proceeds to sit in chair and sip coffee (good for him). 9:35am, I go walk through Patrol area, they are just putting last of their gear by the trucks. I ask ASM if he's going to go teach the class? "Yup, in a minute." As he sat there working on his Rubix Cube pyramid... 9:45am, I ask him again, if he's going to go teach the class he offered, as the scouts had met his requirement to be ready by 9:30am. ASM begrudingly got off his *ss and finally went over and taught the Totin' Chip. I would have done it myself, but I am not a registered leader with the troop, nor have been trained yet to offer the class (not sure I WANT to get in a leadership role with this unit at this point).... Seems to me, the SM is a great guy (known and camped with him both in cubs and just as families for the past 5+ years), but the rest of the adult "leaders" (and I use that term VERY loosely with some of these guys) rely on the SM for most everything and seem to flail without him. Not sure how you expect the SPL, ASPL, and PL's to be squared away when the adults can't seem to get their act together... Overall, not a bad campout. Son claims he had fun and learned a lot despite some frustration and yacking twice on Staurday afternoon / evening. However, saw firsthand some questionable leadership tactics and some outright unscoutlike attitudes from both scouters and scouts. A LOT of the scout on scout teaching was always prefaced with "Hey, I'll teach you this using EDGE, so you can get signed off and I can get it signed off for my 1st class rank." While I understand that the requirements call for older scouts to teach the younger scouts as part of both scout's rank requirements.... I question the mentality and mindset that is being instilled when the ONLY time the older scouts seem to want to interact with the NSP is when there is a box to get checked off on their own advancement! Its a lot more about "what's in it for me?" Instead of, "How can we help the new guys learn some scout skills they need." Oh well, should be an interesting convesation with my SM friend over a cold adult beverage in the next couple days...

Who needs a refresser course in skeet and trap shooting at national? Come on, put those shotgun range skills to the test! Better yet, if you're over 14, you can go at it with the black powder. BBQ'd hawk at the Irving cafeteria on Monday! Yummmm

"Full-contact stick fighting"... since when does a group of boys need instruction and encouragement to engage in such things!! We get this as nauseum at just about every campout I've ever been on Boxing and MMA come later when the boys are older and get into disagreements at Boy Scout camp. Never seen knife fighting (thank goodness), but was involved in a couple non-sanctioned BSA rock throwing fights at summer camp as a youth. I think the point is, even in 1911 - young men did NOT need to be encouraged to fight. Kinda comes naturally with the surge of hormones.

OK, a couple observations after I read the entire 3 pages of posts just now... After I got past the part of thinking the lad was in trouble for not sharing with the adult leaders.... (just kidding)... #1 - the quoted "Mandatory Report of Child Abuse" from cubdadinnj states, " exposed to any form of sexual exploitation including the possession, manufacture, or distribution of child pornography, online solicitation, enticement, or showing of obscene material." Now, unless it was possession of CHILD porn (I'm assuming the lad wasn't producing and distributing his own porn via his phone and internet... however it would be a good start on the salesman merit badge...) how is this a reportable offense? Was the material "obscene". Hell, the Supreme Court hasn't been able to define "obscene" other than to state they know it when they see it! #2 - No, a phone and internet is really no different than the Playboys and Hustlers smuggled into scout camp when I was a kid, other than the pictures now move and have sound with them - and might be easier to get / hide. Porn is still tab A inserted into slot B. Now, folks have gotten REAL creative with which slot B they use and how many tab A's might be involved, but depictions of sex are depictions of sex. Yes, a tasteful female nude with just top and bottom showing and nothing OB/Gyn related showing is much different than hard core video, but its still just titilation really. I doubt that if the law got involved, they would care if its single nude female or a full length group scene. They would probably be interested in if any of the subjects appeared or were presented to be under age, but thats it. So porn is porn. #3 - I find it odd that in an organization that is so opposed to same sex relationships, we over-react to young men's interest in the goings on of sex with females? Which way do we want it? Honestly, I don't want my son looking at porn, but I'd be relieved and somewhat happy if he got caught so long as it was looking at females. Gay porn, not so much. Probably a bigger issue at hand than just a couple scouts curiosity at play. Then be concerned about "grooming" from one youth towards another. #4 - What came of the report to council and local cops? I'm surprised the cops even took the report. I could see council wanting a record on file to CYA and show that if they were made aware of the incident, they DID something about it. Cubdad - you did what you thought was right at the time, and it was right. This is NOT sandusky and Penn State. If someone was being outright abused, you would have handled it differently. Beavah has posted often regarding the use of legal terms on these boards and one of my favorites from him (paraphrasing) is: When we make a legal case of abuse / neglect / molestation out of issues that are clearly NOT those things, we do a grave diservice to youths who have actually been victims of REAL abuse. It waters down the horror of true child abuse. Its kind of like calling everyone a warrior. That football player is a warrior. That baseball great is a warrior. No, they are great atheletes. Warriors are people who voluntarily put themselves in harms way and sometimes pay with their life so people like us can sit around drinking coffee and having these types of debate via cyberspace without fear that the government or some warlord is going to come kill us in our sleep because of our views. Don't make a mountain out of a mole-hill just so you can climb the mountain and die on it. You made a real time decision, followed up on it and documented it as was recommended by your council (even if you do or do not agree with the instruction to report to police). You did your job, don't spend extra energy second guessing yourself.

OGE - I agree 100% - the duty to be fit for the task lands with the unit leaders. The standards are published. But, it would be a hard call to turn away a unit dues to leaedr ratio or YPG issues because they show up with an adult that doesn't fit the standard. Its hard to tell a paying customer "no" without backlash.

Update - well the PL took on the patrol food buy himself. Doubt he will make the mistake of not discussing this with the patrol in the future unless he always wants to be the one stuck buying the food. Tent issue is a learning curve thing to me. 8 boys in the patrol going and myself and another adult each have an extra 3 man dome with us. Doubt they'll need it, but if they all show up without tents, they can cram 4 into a 3man and the lesson will be learned, I guess. I think I might approach the SM about a patrol advisor for the NSP. These boys are well versed and are all great campers, they are just all about 12 y/o and even if tehy KNOW it, they have a hard time remembering it unless it has to do with Angry Birds or how to level up on their favorite video game. They did a GREAT job of menu selection, task assignments for the kitchen adn talking about what Tenderfoot requirements they want to get done on the campout. They totally FORGOT to discuss WHO would buy the food and WHO was bringing tents and who was sleeping with whom. I honestly think its more about time management with this age group than anything. They get 45 minutes in a breakout session to plan their patrol tasks, and they spend the 1st 20 minutes planning the 1st breakfast for Saturday morning! Now, that is important, but they have no clue they just spent half their meeting time rehashing a single meal! That will come in time... maybe an advisor would help them realize the number of items they need to get through to successfully plan a campout in the time allotted. Thanks for the feeedback, and I'll report back after the weekend adventure!! FWIW - I like the NSP because it keeps the boys who were together as cubs together for the 1st part of Boy Scouts. I think this is a good idea for retention. Our Troop has about 8 patrols, so the alternative is to have each new ascout go to a patrol that they may or may not know anybody in... not a fun start IMHO. The down side is, you might not have senior scouts ready / willing to take all the newbies as their PL. The patrol right now is good, because they all KNOW their PL - he was in cubs with them. The strength is also the weakness in having a boy 1 year older than you be your PL when you are a clueless newbie.

As for the UK, I find it quite odd too. As I watched the Gala for the Queen on TV recently, I thought, gee a huge amount of expense for a "figurehead", especially given the economic environment worldwide right now. But, I would agree that when it comes to pomp and circumstance, no one can quite match the British. I understand the fondness, its tied in with tradition and the UK's sense of patriotism. Much the same the flag, the republic, and Uncle Sam is in the USA. We loathe our politicans, but we are still extremely patriotic. I sense the Queen is an embodiment of patriotism for the UK. Love your country, but fear your government so to speak... she represents the country, not the governing government. The place I find extremely odd is North Korea. I understand the wailing at Kim Jong Il's death as a sign of respect out of fear, but the absolute devotion shown is uncanny. I can only assume it has to do with multiple generations of indoctrination. If its all you've ever known, and its all your parents and grand-parents and great grandparents have known, then this type of devotion to your leader (even a tyrant leader that would let you starve while living the high life) is NORMAL to you. Why do people who grow up in an abusive household have a higher than normal chance of entering into an abusive relationship as an adult? Its what they know. Even though it hurts them, there is comfort in the familiarity of it. I think this might be what the US and allies are running up against in Iraq and to a certain degree in Afgahnistan. You have multiple generations that have grown up and are living under ruthless dictatorships. But, when presented with an opportunity for free choice, free will, freedom... some (not all but a good portion) do not know what to do with this freedom. For many, like a child without a parent to tell them what to do or think, it can be a very scary proposition. Much the same a westerner cannot fathom living in a dictatorship and would gladly choose death over loss of freedom. The newly freed people seek the security of a master because its what they know and feel comfortable with. This allows for warlords and infighting to control the populace and take over because its what they know. If all you ever expirienced in your life was a ruthless dictator, but you figured out how to live under their rules and get by (or in some cases even thrive), how odd and out of place would you feel when someone was NOT directing you life for you? My fear is that a good portion of the society in these two countries fall into this category. Which means they NEED someone to rule over them in order to feel secure in life. The dictator removed, either the "liberation" forces must remain to secure the peace, or there is endless infighting until a new totalitarian force pushes all others aside and takes over the role as ruler. I've talked with many Marines and soldiers who have returned from multiple deployments and many express the idea that it seems the Iraqis and Afgahnis "Don't even want to be free." "We fight for them, and they won't even fight for themselves." etc... If you've never tasted freedom, then a subjugated existence even if hard or unfair may be viewed as preferable. At least you know how to act and what to expect, instead of facing a steady barrage of the unknown everyday. Being ruled by a tyrant might be prefered so long as you know what rules to play by.

You don't think it all boils down to the $$$ involved? Weight limit / BMI is there to apease the BSA's insurance company and legal eagles (I think Bevah is one of these... legal eagle). The health form can (and most likely does) be fudged (by those that like to eat their fudge). Problem comes when said scouter shows up at PSR or other high adventure base with himself, two other leaders and x number of scouts in tow. I don't know the exact scout to adult ratio required for trekking, but I bet there is one... lets say 5 scouts for each adult. Fatty, plus two other adults show up to PSR with 14 boys in their group... all reserved / all paid / etc.... Now, Mr. PSR director - you gonna be the one to tell Fatty he is sitting out and pick which 4 scouts get to miss out on their long awaited, funded, capstone trek that is to be the pinicle of their scouting career? Better yet, you gonna field the calls from pissed off parents about why their son couldn't trek because he or his leader was too fat? You gonna field the call from your boss at national once the parents figure out who to call to complain that they paid x number of $$ (probably close to or exceeding 1K depending on mode and distance of travel to PSR) and their scout was not allowed to trek? You gonna take that heat, or are you gonna make sure you have the papers in hand to cover your backside and wish them well and cross your fingers that Fatty's ticker doesn't explode 1/2 way up the Tooth of Time? I bet they go with the paperwork and prayer more often than they'd like, but they also know whats good for them to keep their paycheck from bouncing. CYA and let Fatty take his chances would be my battle cry!(This message has been edited by deanrx)

Disclaimer at the start... my son and his buddies just bridged from WEB II a few months back, so trying to make that gear change from adult led to boy led program, however... Troop meeting last night. Over 1/2 the time was devoted to Patrol time to plan the meals, etc. for this weekends advancement camp. My son is in a new boys patrol (all newly minted Boy Scouts with scout rank) and the PL / APL are newly minted 1st class scouts... good guys, but only about 1 to 1.5 years older than my son. So, they go have their planning time, and the meeting wraps up. I ask my son (and PL who is his buddy), So you got the menu figured out? YUP! So, who's gonna do the food buy? SILENCE - uhh, don't know... Did you figure out how many tents you need for the patrol and who is sleeping with who? SILENCE - uhh, didn't really talk about that... Now, I understand this is part of the learning curve for these boys, both my son as a newbie boy scout and his PL in his 1st PL role. However, I am a bit frustrated by the fact that there was no patrol advisor with them at the breakout meeting to kind of 'guide' the discussion so they made sure to talk about the essential items that need to be covered in planning a campout. I suggested to one of the other dads, maybe we should come up with a check-sheet or form they could use in the future as a template when planning the patrol campout tasks, so they don't leave out a mission critical element. I am willing to help craft such document, but don't want to be stepping on anyone's toes. I'm good friends with the SM. He was my ACM for 3 years when I was CM for our feeder pack. I don't want to tell him how to do his job, but I am a little peturbed that the "new boys" seem to be left twisting in the wind on their first troop campout and were only given the guidance of their PL and APL, both of whom crossed from WEB II just a year prior to those they are charged with leading. How you would handle the situation? Do I say / do anything at all? or do I let them 'learn' by struggle and maybe failure as it may mean a scout has a bad 1st campout impression with the troop because of poor planning?

Yeah, Maybe change the charater reference to Bear Gillis and the cubs will get it.

JMH- I agree with you 100%. My point was more on placing the responsibility with the scout. My son recently bridged from webII to a troop. One of the campout rules for the troop is no Pop-Tarts for breakfast. Ok fine. I don't really agree with the rule, but I told my son he is not to pack pop-tarts. If he doesn't like the "rule" he should get to 1st class rank, get on the PLC and make a motion to change the rule. Until then, he is a "follower". he might find out there is a good reason for the rule. There is, above and beyond the nutritional value... the youth leaders in the troop want the scouts to COOK meals on campouts to meet the spirit of "prepare" in the requirements for ranks. Openning a package and consuming is not really "preparing" is what the SPL told some of the boys last month. I would tend to agree. As for the one parent that thinks the "rules" don't apply to her and her offspring - don't have any good advice there except for someone to step up and have a candid conversation with her about how her son is outside the bell-curve on a recuring basis with regards to showing up to outings with "banned" items. The OP states she is not malicious, but is rather oblivious... well then make her less oblivious. Sometimes all that is needed to correct the issue is to have someone point it out to a well meaning, but clueless parent.

Roadside fight - call 911 on my cell phone. Unless it involves my friend(s) or family member getting mugged / etc... I'm not getting in harms way. I did it once while on active duty, saw two E-4's going at each other outside the barracks. Got out of my car and yelled at them to knock it off. One started towards me until he saw my officers rank and I let him know I was a personal friend of both his CO and 1st SGT. That stopped the lad in his tracks. As for an unsafe act at a scout outing with multiple uunits... If you are an adult leader, then you are a leader of ALL scouts. If I am to ever correct a scout that is not in my unit, I do so, but with the uptmost tack. Usually stating something like, "Guys, do you think that is the best thing to be doing? What if you slip with that knife? You know, BSA has a zero tolerance for bullying, I'd hate to see you get sent home from camp..." You can get your point across without being a blowhard and if the other unit's leadership disagrees with my assesment of the situation, then so be it... I move on with life. At least I can lay my head down at night knowing I've done my due dilligence. Unless it has the potential to cause serious harm or involves boys from multiple units, I see no reason to alert camp staff. Most of the time, just making the other unit's leader(s) aware of the issue solves any problem. As for current events with Penn State and the Sandusky trial, thats a whole new level of complacency. Multiple people at multiple levels had multiple chances to do something to stop the abuse and ALL (for whatever their reasons) chose not to do anything. They all have to live with that decision. By the time the criminal and civil courts get done, Penn State will be a bankrupt institution if there is any justice in the world.

Not to belittle the topic, but if your greatest concern of uprising at mealtime with a group of 200-400+ 12-17 year olds is noisy and off-key singing and such, I'd suggest to call yourself lucky, choose your battles wisely, and join in the "spirit". Otherwise - one might reconsider their role in the BSA program. Dean

Going back to the OP (about getting thru to parents, not just about cell phones)... The easiest thing to do is hold the scouts accountable for themselves. Kid shows up with banned item (soda, candy, cell phone, chainsaw, etc...) - it gets confiscated and locked up at the CO's location (if able to prior to departure) or gets locked up in the SM's vehicle for the duration of campout. I make the scout come to me WITH a parent to retrieve the item(s). That way I know both scout and parent receive the SAME feedback on WHY the item is prohibited and why it was confiscated for the campout. If it is a recuring problem with the same scout, then they can get themselves dis-invited from troop campouts. 99% of the time, its a "I'm so very sorry, I didn't realize x,y,z wasn't allowed, it won't happen again." and it doesn't. The one time I had pushback from mom and dad - it was the kid's last campout and last scouting event. He was quitting anyways. He is not missed. You can debate the merits of soda, candy, cell phones all you want. Each unit has their own restrictions and reasons for them. Find a unit you either agree with, try to change the rules, or find a new unit. But, if you are a member of the unit, then you agree to follow the rules of the unit - period. To do otherwise is unscoutlike in my book. Put the responsibility on the SCOUT. That is what we are trying to teach the YOUTH anyways. First time mom or dad embarrases the scout because of what THEY packed for him will be the LAST time junior lets mommy pack his stuff for camp - period.

Hey, I'm still waiting for my trophy and participation certificate....

Realy, You're going to compare homosexuals to drug dealers and pedophiles... you're gonna stick with that argument are you? Sheesh! Good for Mr. Zulu... he was once a BSA supporter and an SM, now he leads his life. Too bad those two aspects have a mutual exclusivity. Ironic, the mutual exclusivity is on the part of BSA and not the homosexual community... being that we are loyal, friendly, curteous, kind, etc.... Oh yeah, forgot that the BSA law only applies to non-faggot bible thumpers. Don't have to extend those points of the scout law to those we distain.

I read the article... Can I get my participation trophy now please....

It goes both ways... I think BSA24 is over-generalizing just a bit. Here's the thing, you get polite and rude people in real life. Scouting is real life. In real life, you have to deal with both types of people. You have folks who volunteer and then don't follow through... happens in the workplace too. Its just that hopefully at work, their boss holds them accountable for it. In my expirience, it takes about 2-3 interactions to discover who are the real "doers" in the group and who are the big talkers with little follow through. You also find out who is naughty and who is nice... Then I try to associate and work with those who are doers and are scoutlike. I avoid the others like the plague. My job as a leader is to run the program, not try to raise an adult-child to learn politeness b/c their parents failed to do so... Adult to adult rudeness - happens all the time in real life, I don't think its more prevalent in scouting. It would be nice if more folks in scouting modeled the behavoirs our program attempts to instill in the youth. However, that is NOT the job of a leader - your job is to provide the program to the youth, regardless of the parent of the scout.

Yeah, Most open space in all our city parks (with grass on it) is covered by either a baseball or soccer field. Once I was walking the dog mid-week in the day. Park dept. employee told me I couldn't be "on" the field without a use permit!!! I told him I pay taxes in my town and the field was not in use at the time. I asked if the field was park of the city park? His answer was "yes". So, I called up my local city councilman and asked him to explain WHY a taxpayer was barred from using an area of a city park that was not under reserved use at the time I was on the field? The answer was, "Well, we can't let just everybody out there, it would tear up the grass and the fields wouldn't be in shape for the youth leagues to use when they need them." Huh? Its grass, its in a city park and only certain individuals can WALK on it ?!?!? Kids (in or not in a league) cannot even play a game of pick-up ball on the field during off time because of fear of lawsuit and the wear and tear on the grounds!!! Makes me think kids are over-scheduled into organized sports b/c its the only time they are ALLOWED on the field!

Yeah, I was talking with a parent across the street about their summer plans (her son is HUGE baseball nut - nothing else, doesn't play with other kids b/c he is practicing, never seen him on a bike, etc...). THe kid LOVES baseball, some basketball, but baseball is it... wears nothing but jerseys to school, etc... Anyways, they cancelled their vacation plans b/c they are taking him to a travel team tourney in South Carolina !! (we are in San Diego!) This kid is 11 years old heading into 6th grade in the fall!! WTH? I think the Little League spokesman might be giving lip service, but their organization sure likes the $$ those travel teams spread around the country. Oh BTW... mom is going with the team... dad is staying home to WORK to PAY for the trip.... sound familiar?

Is it the single parent family? Maybe... but divorce rates are actually DOWN over the past 10 years... In my part of the world, the economy is bad, but most folks are still gainfully employed... most often the male in the household. The "bread winner" is working longer hours and more weekends to make the same amount of $$ they did in a 40 hr week 4 years ago. I can't count the number of scouts (both cubs and boys) who I've been involved with at the unit level who you ONLY see mom with. Dad is working late, on a business trip, working weekends, etc... to keep them in their upside down 5/1-arm financed house! Societies "adult men" are one of two places... they have either by choice of their own or choice of their ex-spouse checked out on their family and no longer participate as a parent, OR they are at WORK - all the time. I know guys with 2 to 3 jobs to keep the family afloat. Why do they not help out at day camp? Because DAY camp is durring the DAY - when most people WORK~! Unless you are a teacher or some other profession that has a huge chunk on summer off, you are WORKING to PAY for junior to attend DAY camp. Its a sign of the times - people are still "doing well" in my neighborhood.... there is just a lot more DOing to keep the level of WELL they and their families have come to expect, regardless of a crappy economy.